I'm curious why pcgs does not include GC prices realized

Morgan13

If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

BustHalfBrian

If I recall correctly, I believe it has something to do with GC limiting the amount of data it shares with third parties.

MFeld

From what I’ve read, it’s because GC has chosen not to make the information available by that means.

Morgan13

OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

PerryHall

@ianrussell is the owner of GC and is a forum member here. Perhaps he can respond to your question.

MetroD

Can't say if it has changed, but this was Ian's position back in 2019.

Edited to Add a Screenshot:

spacehayduke

@Morgan13 said:
OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

Anyone can go into GC archives on their sales and find what coins they auctioned went for. So I am not sure what the problem is here. The PCGS website does not always cover all coins auctioned from SB, HA, etc., so without going directly to the SB and HA auction archives as well, one can miss alot of information restricting oneself to one source for auction prices.

Dave99B

Data is extremely valuable these days. My WILD guess is they haven't been able to come together contractually. I expect it will happen at some point ... at least I hope so.

Dave

SIowhand

@Dave99B said:
Data is extremely valuable these days. My WILD guess is they haven't been able to come together contractually. I expect it will happen at some point ... at least I hope so.

Dave

Exactly. That data is valuable. I’m sure GC feels the best way realize that value is to drive traffic to their site if you want to view it.

logger7

They make ebay optional which is a huge marketplace, with sometimes sketchy sellers and relisted items for various reasons. Though ebay itself sunsets the sale results at 3 months, Coin Facts goes back a lot further. I thought that GC makes it hard to view auction results, the older the harder.

fluffy155

@spacehayduke said:

@Morgan13 said:
OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

Anyone can go into GC archives on their sales and find what coins they auctioned went for. So I am not sure what the problem is here.

Maybe if your purpose is just to get a general idea of value, but for specific coins the GC archive is very tedious to use. You can't search by certification number, and if it's a commonly traded coin you have to browse through hundreds or thousands of listings hoping to stumble upon the coin you're looking for. And that's if you know for sure that it was sold through GC, which when looking up a prospective purchase you have no way of knowing.

lermish

@fluffy155 said:

@spacehayduke said:

@Morgan13 said:
OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

Anyone can go into GC archives on their sales and find what coins they auctioned went for. So I am not sure what the problem is here.

Maybe if your purpose is just to get a general idea of value, but for specific coins the GC archive is very tedious to use. You can't search by certification number, and if it's a commonly traded coin you have to browse through hundreds or thousands of listings hoping to stumble upon the coin you're looking for. And that's if you know for sure that it was sold through GC, which when looking up a prospective purchase you have no way of knowing.

I know many dealers who buy inventory off of GC. Separate from the data ownership, the "difficulty" of looking up a coin may be a feature, not a bug.

Slade01

My ideal auction database is pretty much the Heritage past auction records. I recently bid on a bunch of coins that I had little price knowledge about: Roman both Republic and Imperial and that was a lifesaver to give an approximate idea to the ultimate buyer how much of his money I was going to spend. I got everything that he wanted from the choices that I gave him in his specific Caesars and came in a few thousand under budget even with an extra AV aureus in Ch. XF.

I do understand the lack of sharing though, I know that for more common stuff GC has replaced hunting on EBay for me, and that is the market that I expect GC wants to inhabit, and slowly grow into the higher end with their pricing policies.

Morgan13

@spacehayduke I never said it was a problem. I just asked why and I received answers to my question. Just like others here have posted I have my resources for finding a rough idea of values and PCGS is one of them. It's fast easy and free!
BTW I think GC is excellent at what it does so I wasn't being disrespectful at all.
I think it would also be free advertising for them.

Zoins

@lermish said:

@fluffy155 said:

@spacehayduke said:

@Morgan13 said:
OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

Anyone can go into GC archives on their sales and find what coins they auctioned went for. So I am not sure what the problem is here.

Maybe if your purpose is just to get a general idea of value, but for specific coins the GC archive is very tedious to use. You can't search by certification number, and if it's a commonly traded coin you have to browse through hundreds or thousands of listings hoping to stumble upon the coin you're looking for. And that's if you know for sure that it was sold through GC, which when looking up a prospective purchase you have no way of knowing.

I know many dealers who buy inventory off of GC. Separate from the data ownership, the "difficulty" of looking up a coin may be a feature, not a bug.

Interesting perspective!

ianrussell

Hi - the GC auction archive has all of our auction records - updated in real time as items close on a Sunday. We're up to almost 1.5 million records.

We have avoided releasing to third parties for a few reasons - it's something we regularly review - and I can see positives and negatives. Right now, I'm 55% sure we're making the right decision by not releasing it to third parties.

I am reminded by someone I highly respect in our industry who really wanted our prices. When I asked "what would you do, if you were GC" - his immediate response was "definitely would not share the data".

• Ian

Slade01

This is the information age.
Information has value, giving it away would not be a wise business decision.
Ask Apple, Google, Tesla, well I think you get my point.

edit: I speak as a retired intellectual property attorney/CPA and member of the USPTO, having represented many SV startups and giants.

lilolme

I am thankful to those like Heritage, Stacks, David Lawrence, Goldberg, (and formerly Legend auctions) and any others I have missed that do share their data-information outside of their own website (what I will call bulk sharing).

The bulk sharing allows for resources like auction prices realized (APR) to be provided to collectors and dealers through various sources of ones choice. If all the auction houses did Not bulk share their data, then collectors would need to go to each individual auction site to find APR's and record data to support potential purchases or perhaps in doing technical reviews or similar.

I believe, but don't have the actual data to support, that bulk sharing also allows for more accurate Price Guides because of the ability to sort and review bulk data to more accuracy than reviewing APR's at each individual auction site. Just seems logical. Additionally and in relation to the APR above, when one looks up a Price Guide value the supporting APR can be supplied giving the collector supportive (or sometimes not ) information on the value.

While I am certainly not a big time user of these resources, I have found them to be more than adequate 95 plus percent of the time. I do semi-regularly click on the links to go to the actual auction lot at the applicable auction house to view a specific coin/lot and/or read a lot description or more.

Again thanks to the auction companies that supply the bulk data for all of this to happen as I believe it helps the hobby overall with respect to valuing coins and/or doing technical reviews.

DelawareDoons

Am I the only one that can't figure out how to use GC's database to quickly research prices?

I'd be much less frustrated with their refusal to share if they made it easier to search their database.

lermish

@DelawareDoons said:
Am I the only one that can't figure out how to use GC's database to quickly research prices?

I'd be much less frustrated with their refusal to share if they made it easier to search their database.

I'm actually surprised to hear this because it's pretty intuitive. Are you doing it on your phone? That might be the issue, it's not very cell phone friendly, better for a desktop.

breakdown

I am a fan of a GC and Ian - customer- friendly and always responsive. That said, I wish CoinFacts had GC results. But it’s Ian’s data and I understand why he would want to drive traffic to GC’s website.

It does make me wonder why Heritage and Stacks don’t view it the same way.

FWIW, when I price a coin, I start with CoinFacts and then may look at CAC pops/prices (if coin is stickered). I only consult GC archives if I feel I need an additional data source.

winesteven

I have no problem quickly using the filters on PCGS’s Auction Prices Realized and on GC’s Coin Auction Archive on every coin I buy, whether via auction or from a dealer. Matter of fact, my filter choices are SAVED on the GC site, so when I select the year for a coin, those filters are automatically set to show me all sales only of coins graded by PCGS, only coins with CAC stickers, and in recent date order. With the PCGS site, with each search I first have to click on PCGS coins, and then separately, CAC. Thank you @ianrussell .

Steve

Morgan13

Hopefully my question did not create controversy.
It doesn't appear to have.
I now understand much better why GC does not choose to share their data.
It's okay by me.
👍

FrankH

@lermish said:

@DelawareDoons said:
Am I the only one that can't figure out how to use GC's database to quickly research prices?

I'd be much less frustrated with their refusal to share if they made it easier to search their database.

I'm actually surprised to hear this because it's pretty intuitive. Are you doing it on your phone? That might be the issue, it's not very cell phone friendly, better for a desktop.

Better, yes. But not as good as sorting the coins by type, denomination, and date.
Looking up using those simple criteria makes for a pleasurable usage.

Forget the general type that brings up each date and quantity sold. I like the Heritage method of being able to specify type then date and seeing many past auctions. And the date of sale to figure out how old that auction was.

lilolme

@breakdown said:
I am a fan of a GC and Ian - customer- friendly and always responsive. That said, I wish CoinFacts had GC results. But it’s Ian’s data and I understand why he would want to drive traffic to GC’s website.

It does make me wonder why Heritage and Stacks don’t view it the same way.

FWIW, when I price a coin, I start with CoinFacts and then may look at CAC pops/prices (if coin is stickered). I only consult GC archives if I feel I need an additional data source.

.
I agree with most of this. On the "wonder why Heritage and Stacks don't view it the same way" question - I would like to think that possibly they see a value in the coin community by making their APR a bulk share. However, I think it could also be driven by having their information available and therefore their 'Name' on multiple websites and App's (think CCE & CDN apps, coinfacts, PCGS APR, NGC values and others). People using these are seeing the auction company 'Name' listed. Additionally people, I am one, will sometimes/often click on the links to go to the websites to view the coin(s) - is it a dog or a beauty coin thing or read a description. With that said I have no clue what the value of all this is versus other. Their decision. One more thing is that I still sometimes go to the auction company website for searches as I feel I can sometimes get better or more defined results. So that is not all lost.

One thing is for sure, having all this data available has almost completely change the way pricing and value determinations is done. Also sometimes technical research. Not so many years ago, it seems but...., when doing the Morgan set I came across an 1893 CC pcgs 64. I had a greysheet subscription and used other guides and floor pricing. I had noticed the 1893 CC had gone up in the past months or so. When I found one at a show I was curious. I went to a dealer I knew well and asked about the 1893 CC 64 price. He looked it up and said something like (I don't recall exact words or numbers) there is a bid supporting that greysheet number but the next highest is well below. He then looked up who the bid was from and surprise it was from the dealer selling the current 1893 CC 64. I chuckled and asked, do you think that (sight seen) bid is going away when he sells that coin? Smile. Oh, I did not get that one.

Anyway having this data available today is orders of magnitudes better for the coin community than not having it, I think. But still pricing / value is a variable or not precise.

PeakRarities

@lilolme said:

@breakdown said:
I am a fan of a GC and Ian - customer- friendly and always responsive. That said, I wish CoinFacts had GC results. But it’s Ian’s data and I understand why he would want to drive traffic to GC’s website.

It does make me wonder why Heritage and Stacks don’t view it the same way.

FWIW, when I price a coin, I start with CoinFacts and then may look at CAC pops/prices (if coin is stickered). I only consult GC archives if I feel I need an additional data source.

.
I agree with most of this. On the "wonder why Heritage and Stacks don't view it the same way" question - I would like to think that possibly they see a value in the coin community by making their APR a bulk share. However, I think it could also be driven by having their information available and therefore their 'Name' on multiple websites and App's (think CCE & CDN apps, coinfacts, PCGS APR, NGC values and others). People using these are seeing the auction company 'Name' listed. Additionally people, I am one, will sometimes/often click on the links to go to the websites to view the coin(s) - is it a dog or a beauty coin thing or read a description. With that said I have no clue what the value of all this is versus other. Their decision. One more thing is that I still sometimes go to the auction company website for searches as I feel I can sometimes get better or more defined results. So that is not all lost.

One thing is for sure, having all this data available has almost completely change the way pricing and value determinations is done. Also sometimes technical research. Not so many years ago, it seems but...., when doing the Morgan set I came across an 1893 CC pcgs 64. I had a greysheet subscription and used other guides and floor pricing. I had noticed the 1893 CC had gone up in the past months or so. When I found one at a show I was curious. I went to a dealer I knew well and asked about the 1893 CC 64 price. He looked it up and said something like (I don't recall exact words or numbers) there is a bid supporting that greysheet number but the next highest is well below. He then looked up who the bid was from and surprise it was from the dealer selling the current 1893 CC 64. I chuckled and asked, do you think that (sight seen) bid is going away when he sells that coin? Smile. Oh, I did not get that one.

Anyway having this data available today is orders of magnitudes better for the coin community than not having it, I think. But still pricing / value is a variable or not precise.

Very well thought out response, and I think that’s definitely something Ian could take into consideration is that if his ultimate goal is to drive traffic to the site, it may be best to make them available to the aggregators.

At shows, I often encounter many dealers and collectors who don’t even bother to check GC comps, because they don’t use Gc frequently. If all of those aprs were made available, a lot of those people would be visiting the site more often and see that a specific issue performs much better on GC than the other venues. (23-d saints in 66cac, for example). I always click on the link to compare the actual COIN too, just seeing the amount it sold for is of little use to me.

Also, laymen who aren’t very familiar with the industry and all the different venues can easily make their way to CoinFacts with a cert number. The first thing they see is that everything sells on stacks or heritage, so they assume that those are the premier auction venues. Without GC comps being there, there might be thousands if not tens of thousands of potential clients who don’t even know that GC exists.

wondercoin

‘’Right now, I'm 55% sure we're making the right decision by not releasing it to third parties.’’

Note- that is 55% certain that it makes no sense to release the information FOR FREE at this time. If Ian was offered $100/month to release the info. to a given (reputable) third party, I suspect he might be 54.99% certain he was making the right decision to not release the information. On the other hand, if Ian was offered $1,000,000/month to release the info. to a given (reputable) third party, I suspect Ian might be 99.99% certain it makes perfect sense to release the info. to that given third party. Like nearly everything else, “cold hard cash” is simply at the core of this business decision.

Just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

lilolme

@DeplorableDan said:

@lilolme said:

@breakdown said:
I am a fan of a GC and Ian - customer- friendly and always responsive. That said, I wish CoinFacts had GC results. But it’s Ian’s data and I understand why he would want to drive traffic to GC’s website.

It does make me wonder why Heritage and Stacks don’t view it the same way.

FWIW, when I price a coin, I start with CoinFacts and then may look at CAC pops/prices (if coin is stickered). I only consult GC archives if I feel I need an additional data source.

.
I agree with most of this. On the "wonder why Heritage and Stacks don't view it the same way" question - I would like to think that possibly they see a value in the coin community by making their APR a bulk share. However, I think it could also be driven by having their information available and therefore their 'Name' on multiple websites and App's (think CCE & CDN apps, coinfacts, PCGS APR, NGC values and others). People using these are seeing the auction company 'Name' listed. Additionally people, I am one, will sometimes/often click on the links to go to the websites to view the coin(s) - is it a dog or a beauty coin thing or read a description. With that said I have no clue what the value of all this is versus other. Their decision. One more thing is that I still sometimes go to the auction company website for searches as I feel I can sometimes get better or more defined results. So that is not all lost.

One thing is for sure, having all this data available has almost completely change the way pricing and value determinations is done. Also sometimes technical research. Not so many years ago, it seems but...., when doing the Morgan set I came across an 1893 CC pcgs 64. I had a greysheet subscription and used other guides and floor pricing. I had noticed the 1893 CC had gone up in the past months or so. When I found one at a show I was curious. I went to a dealer I knew well and asked about the 1893 CC 64 price. He looked it up and said something like (I don't recall exact words or numbers) there is a bid supporting that greysheet number but the next highest is well below. He then looked up who the bid was from and surprise it was from the dealer selling the current 1893 CC 64. I chuckled and asked, do you think that (sight seen) bid is going away when he sells that coin? Smile. Oh, I did not get that one.

Anyway having this data available today is orders of magnitudes better for the coin community than not having it, I think. But still pricing / value is a variable or not precise.

Very well thought out response, and I think that’s definitely something Ian could take into consideration is that if his ultimate goal is to drive traffic to the site, it may be best to make them available to the aggregators.

At shows, I often encounter many dealers and collectors who don’t even bother to check GC comps, because they don’t use Gc frequently. If all of those aprs were made available, a lot of those people would be visiting the site more often and see that a specific issue performs much better on GC than the other venues. (23-d saints in 66cac, for example). I always click on the link to compare the actual COIN too, just seeing the amount it sold for is of little use to me.

Also, laymen who aren’t very familiar with the industry and all the different venues can easily make their way to CoinFacts with a cert number. The first thing they see is that everything sells on stacks or heritage, so they assume that those are the premier auction venues. Without GC comps being there, there might be thousands if not tens of thousands of potential clients who don’t even know that GC exists.

.
Agree. I posted above how pricing has changed (I went maybe a little too far back but was fun to recall) but I believe access to information has changed and is still changing.

I will try a funky example that perhaps only I will understand (hopefully not). So initially there were the auction house websites and a road around them with some exits to go to them. That road is the internet or one's browser and the exits are bookmarks or advertisement links to the websites. This would be similar to driving people to a website.

Then these second party companies start putting together these highways. It is a multi-deck highway with each deck being a different second party (again CDN, CCE, pcgs auction prices realized, coinfacts, ngc value... are the various decks of the highway) that do similar things but with some differences. This highway continues to develop and grow with information and gets more drivers/users. The highway decks have spurs which are similar to the exits above that get you to auction house website and then back onto the highway efficiently. And again this continues to grow with information and users.

At a similar time phones are becoming more powerful and efficient with 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G and/or wifi. Throw in the development of Apps and updates to make them work better on phones and this generates more drivers/users on the second party highway. The original road is still there with the bookmarks, ad links or similar. But as DD noted, and from what I have seen I agree, people are using a deck or two of the highway to access information and often get what they need there and move on. They see what is on the highway.

Anyway it appears there is a change in how people access the auction information and prices. These highway decks even have billboards on them as I see banners on PCGS APR and Coinfacts pages so I assume they are getting some drivers/users.

So what is more popular today in accessing this auction information? The original road or a deck on the highway?

So when looking at the PCGS APR ,I chose the 1885 CC Morgan dollar as an example. I could barely get the first page of 25 on the screen and is below. What I see is essentially ads for Heritage, Stacks and Scotsman, Legend showed up in this example or what I noted above as getting their 'Name' out. Or like a billboard on the highway and with that spur exit (links) to their website.

BryceM

@ianrussell said:
…. Right now, I'm 55% sure we're making the right decision by not releasing it to third parties…

• Ian

I love the honesty and openness of this comment. Ian’s willingness to come here and answer the question speaks volumes about the way he conducts business. Kudos.

UpGrayedd

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

You are entitled to your opinion, but do you care to explain why you think GC is a cancer to the hobby? I for one think they are an asset to the hobby. The more places to buy and sell coins the better IMHO.

winesteven

@UpGrayedd said:

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

You are entitled to your opinion, but do you care to explain why you think GC is a cancer to the hobby? I for one think they are an asset to the hobby. The more places to buy and sell coins the better IMHO.

It’s just a reflection of his thinking process.

Steve

keyman64

Sure, Ian answered the question in his own way above but…

Data is one of the most valuable things on the planet.
Everyone wants the data for free or cheap. Lol
The data is free if you GO TO the GC website.
Why would GC give away their data for free or cheaply to purposely boost other websites and reduce the traffic to their website? That’s insane. Most businesses want more traffic on their website, not significantly less.

For the people wanting the data given away AND also consign coins to GC, you want the GC website to have less traffic and a reduced possibility of someone stumbling upon your coins you have up for auction? Think!

lermish

@winesteven said:

@UpGrayedd said:

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

You are entitled to your opinion, but do you care to explain why you think GC is a cancer to the hobby? I for one think they are an asset to the hobby. The more places to buy and sell coins the better IMHO.

It’s just a reflection of his thinking process.

Steve

"Thinking process" is giving him an awful lot of credit...

sedulous

@spacehayduke said:

@Morgan13 said:
OK well that answers my question. I think that's unfortunate but that's their choice.

Anyone can go into GC archives on their sales and find what coins they auctioned went for. So I am not sure what the problem is here. The PCGS website does not always cover all coins auctioned from SB, HA, etc., so without going directly to the SB and HA auction archives as well, one can miss alot of information restricting oneself to one source for auction prices.

I many times will click the link on the Auction Archives for CoinFacts so it takes me to the original auction website... so I can see the pictures / get some provenance.

sedulous

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

I don't agree

alaura22

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

I would remove GC and CAC from the list and your name to the top!

Dave99B

GC is the one of the best things to happen in our hobby in years … maybe decades.

Dave

Coinscratch

@wondercoin said:
‘’Right now, I'm 55% sure we're making the right decision by not releasing it to third parties.’’

Note- that is 55% certain that it makes no sense to release the information FOR FREE at this time. If Ian was offered $100/month to release the info. to a given (reputable) third party, I suspect he might be 54.99% certain he was making the right decision to not release the information. On the other hand, if Ian was offered $1,000,000/month to release the info. to a given (reputable) third party, I suspect Ian might be 99.99% certain it makes perfect sense to release the info. to that given third party. Like nearly everything else, “cold hard cash” is simply at the core of this business decision.

Just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

Why does cash have to be cold and hard can’t it just be warm and fuzzy. 😁

MFeld

@UpGrayedd said:

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

You are entitled to your opinion, but do you care to explain why you think GC is a cancer to the hobby? I for one think they are an asset to the hobby. The more places to buy and sell coins the better IMHO.

While he’s entitled to his opinion, according to the forum rules and guidelines, he’s not entitled to post them as he did.
“Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.”

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@UpGrayedd said:

@blitzdude said:

@Morgan13 said:
If this thread is going to cause a problem I will change the title.
I just don't get it. They show ebay which is somewhat unreliable.
GC is very popular with collectors so I don't get it.

GC is like the cacs, Justg another cancer to the hobby. RGDS!

You are entitled to your opinion, but do you care to explain why you think GC is a cancer to the hobby? I for one think they are an asset to the hobby. The more places to buy and sell coins the better IMHO.

While he’s entitled to his opinion, according to the forum rules and guidelines, he’s not entitled to post them as he did.
“Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.”

Maybe he meant cancer in a good way...

ianrussell

I was focused on a few other things this past week and didn't keep up on this thread...

A cancer to the hobby??!?!!? At least he/she considers me in the same category as CAC.

winesteven

Apparently the moderators did the right thing and wiped out that nonsensical post!

Thank you!

Steve

Cougar1978

There is no reason why our hosts should include other than what they do (eBay prices realized). A very valuable, consistent reference for me. eBay probably the worlds largest auc house.

They use eBay auc prices realized . Which I consider fantastic plus more real world and realiable.

I find it very useful in development of proper retail pricing development on world slabbed coins which are much scarcer and less expensive than US. A huge opportunity in the world arena which is grossly underpriced a fantastic investment / retail area. eBay is a big pool of data for pricing research especially in areas where catalog support lacking like MS grades MS63 and above. In this way proper retail pricing can be achieved with many areas surpassing even keystone.