Heavy Hairlines on Barber Quarter Graded MS64+ (PCGS)
KiwiNumi
Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
Link to a YouTube video showing the suspected parallel hairlines. (This is the best video quality it would upload in.)
https://youtu.be/zvxIFrCMwZE?si=d2LCe8IjrSvFE-Sa
Photos
So I picked up this 1892 Barber Quarter from a coin show yesterday. I was so excited to pick it up that I didn't take a good enough look at it. I am fairly new to collecting coins, but I'm pretty confident that this coin has been wiped or possibly whizzed. I've seen coins with far less parallel hairlines get details graded. As far as I know, this is absolutely not a straight grade coin. In case anyone thinks these are scratches on the case or die polish lines, there are parts in the video that show the scratches on the case and it's easy to tell the two apart. I'm also pretty confident these aren't die polish lines since you can see the hairlines show up on the bust and devices.
I should also note that I'm certain this is not a counterfeit PCGS slab. It is completely identical to some of my other ones and the Cert #, barcode, and QR code all show the same coin on the PCGS app. The reverse doesn't appear to show many hairlines, it also appears to me that the coin has been dipped and naturally retoned, due to the dark toning that only shows up in tight spaces between devices (between letters and stars.)
I would really appreciate if you guys let me know what you think. I am not a super experienced collector, but I'm confident it's been wiped harshly and I have no clue how it straight graded. I'm honestly gonna be really heartbroken if the coin is harshly cleaned as I expect. This is the most expensive coin I've ever bought.
Comments
I am a serious collector - more of a reader than a buyer , Nevertheless, you are throwing around words and adjectives that that don't aply at all to your coin. IMO, your coin is not whizzed, wiped, or harshly anything! It does have some significant hairlines. I would not have bought it and many here may not grade it 64. However, you have learned a cheap lesson. Examine your coins closely and learn the meaning of the words you use. The coin is a 64 because PCGS says so. Trade out of it for a coin you'll enjoy owning.
In my opinion, and based upon your video and images, the coin absolutely has hairlines on it. However, I don't view the hairlines as severe and don't believe the coin was ever wiped and absolutely no way was it whizzed. This might be an object lesson for grading in that the coin isn't an MS70 and, as such, it will be allowed to have imperfections on its surfaces. Hairlines such as on your coin are allowed on mint state pieces and generally lower the grade some number of points.
If I had to guess I would suggest that the graders at PCGS saw the hairlines, but perhaps not the severity of them, and netted the coin down to MS64+. I don't have an issue with it in a straight-graded holder, but that doesn't mean that I would necessarily buy that coin for a strong price, either.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Can you just post full images and not some rotating video?
The marks you see.... seem lustrous are you they are not die polish? It is hard to see if the lines are raised or recessed... based on the luster they kind of look like die polish lines but so hard to tell from your over exposed images and rotating..sea sickness inducing video.
Coin is Certainly NOT whizzed. Could have been wiped but the fact the coin is a 4+ makes me think those are die polish.
Just my .02
My 2c: Raised die polish is NEVER a bright streak on a gray surface. A wipe does not have random lines spaced widely apart. Buy the book before the coin. Perhaps a member with a camera can post a "wipe." That's what dealers call a wheel mark or shiny abrasion patch on a coin.
Good thing we have a serious collector here... answer provided by the serious collector.
Whew we are lucky.
Depends on the lighting.
Yes we are lucky. I consider myself lucky any time I learn something I didn't know and I don't care if the collector who educates me is a "know-it-all" jerk, a long time major gentleman dealer, a 5* forum member, or a seminar instructor. It's the thought that counts and the time he/she took out of their life to educate me that make me feel lucky ...and even special.
I think you should provide whole coin photos for both sides so people can have a better idea about the coin condition.
Could you post full obverse and reverse photos, as if you were doing a guess the grade? From the bits and pieces you’ve posted, I might have guessed MS62 or even AU. But, of course, better photos are needed. I was somewhat wondering if the slab was tampered with. Or, if you could send it to PCGS for a grade review.
I disagree. NEVER covers everthing, that's why I rarely use it.
What are you doing up so late? Coinbucket said you were a teacher. I thought you were a coin dealer? Ex-teacher?
Keep in mind that high magnification is useful to make sure that you don’t miss any flaws before you buy it, and in understanding what you can see even with the naked eye, but the enemy when it’s time to judge the overall aesthetics and quality of the coin. In other words, you can’t grade a coin under high magnification.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
there are those of us who like to see the whole coin and the coin in slab shots.
front and back
most have not addressed the question about a re-toned dip. that can be with those well lit pictures
What seems like a contradiction may explain what goes on at a grading sevice or auction house. Interesting. Then grading is a attempt to reach the highest number that can be assigned to a coin while considering only the obvious.
Looked at some of the video. IMO, the scuff on the lower neck is far worse than the hairlines. Get rird of it!
Now I will admit that the purchase was not a smart choice on my end, there were not many Barber quarters that i enjoyed at the show and I rushed to buy this one since I was worried someone else would've picked it up. I also made a mistake by not taking a well enough look at it under a Loupe above 5x. Perhaps the number one mistake was the fact I didn't take enough time to look at it before buying. That being said I feel like someone at PCGS likely made a huge mistake with the grade they gave. I figured I would share here to see what some of the more experienced people think.
I will be back tomorrow to get photos in better lighting.
The lines are certainly incuse, they show up all over the devices and fields, they also face every direction. I apologize for the bad video quality, I uploaded it in 4k 60fps, but it came out super compressed for some reason. I will get more photos for you.
It could be wheel marks, although it looks like it's only in the 3 o clock range in the photos, the lines are all over the coin. I'm not sure wheel marks come out all across the coin, but I'm here to learn and I appreciate the comment. I'll upload some better pictures if you wanna let me know what you think tomorrow. Thank you all for your time.
No. Everything is considered when a coin is graded. And in addition to defects that show up most obviously under magnification, “everything” includes color, luster, originality, strike and overall eye appeal, which are best evaluated by the naked eye.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The nice thing is that you can submit the coin to pcgs under the guarantee review option if the grade is wrong, and try to be made whole.
May I suggest you invest in a high quality loupe before you buy any more coins to make sure this doesn’t happen again
If you illuminate die polish at an oblique angle, it will light up. So "never" doesn't apply. What you are talking about is exposing medal from scratches. Die polish won't be a different color than the fields. But we're looking at a photo and the way you illuminate the coin will make sure polish lines appear as bright streaks. And all we have are photos.
Who is coinbucket? I am a current college professor and a part-time dealer. I'm up when I'm up.
If you value your time at all, sell it and buy another.
I certainly might feel differently if I were to see the coin in hand. But based on the pictures and video…
No to it having been whizzed or wiped and no to die-polish lines, as well.
Regardless of what PCGS saw when assessing it, based on the hairlines and marks, in a “Guess The Grade” (GTG) thread, I would have gone with MS63. And these days, I’m not especially surprised when I examine coins in hand and grade them a point or more below the assigned grade. That doesn’t mean I’m correct, only that I disagree. And when I do disagree, far more times than not, my number’s lower than the one on the grading label.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is there a true view of the coin?
Some luster is missing from the higher relief although hard to tell without coin in hand. Imo this coin should be returned to PCGS. At NGC their option might be to replace it but if you trade or sell it, more potential type coin buyers will be hurt.
I think this quarter should probably be in a 63 holder. That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth, which is about 2 cents. I'd love to see a complete pic of the complete obv and rev.
Dave
I imagine that the lines wouldn't even be noticeable on a bright white coin.
It's hairlined from a loose wiping. How else did those bright scratches get on a coin that's been out of circulation for a hundred years?
While hairlines can be (but aren’t necessarily) a result of wiping, scratches typically aren’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's hairlined or cleaned. From the images shown, I don't know which. And to be honest, I'd probably have to see it in hand to make a decision.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You made a mistake, get rid of it ASAP so you don't have to constantly look at it and say "what an ugly coin", "wow, how did I miss that. If you send it to PCGS for a review, they'll send it back to you in the same holder and keep your money. Sell it, lose a few $$$, and your will have learned a relatively inexpensive lesson. In fact, I would argue your mistake and the lesson learned (which can only be learned by experience) was well worth it.
Yes, it's somewhat hairlined but the surfaces look lustrous and toning original. By no means would it be considered "harshly cleaned" but 64+ seems too optimistic.
... Unless you live where there's dust in the air. A wipe never leaves a scratch from a loose bit of sand?
This is an actual problem for me where I live (fine sand) - I don't "wipe" coins but I have to be vigilant about fine particles of sand getting into flips, Air-tite containers and Danscos. I also see what I consider to be wiped coins all the time in TPG holders, some with CAC stickers. I've wiped coins myself as a kid and learned then not to do it.
I posted that scratches aren’t “typically” the result of wiping, not that they “never” are.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So... let's start with the question yet to be asked...
What is the magnification used in the video/images provided?
Seems this is a fair and over the plate question which is relevant to your concerns.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Now that you have posted more information about what you think of the coin, I will give you some solid advice-
Sell it.
You aren't happy with the coin and from the images there isn't anything glaring with respect to its surfaces that PCGS is going to cut you a check to cover your time, expenses and resources. Sell it and move on and next time be more patient and/or prepared when you are confronted with a buying option. After all, if you are looking for Barber quarters in mid-grade MS, the 1892 is generic.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
One more thing. Those aren't so much hairlines as scratches and marks from banging around with other coins, and perhaps sliding around in a desk drawer or envelope over many years. I would bet that the coin has never even been dipped, much less cleaned or wiped. Looks like a nice fresh coin, even if the grade may be a bit of a stretch.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
FWIW, I have had this feeling at coin shows (even local ones). 'Oh boy, I need to buy this coin quickly before someone else does and so I am going to take a chance that later I will be happy with its quality.' It is an impulse that every collector should learn to ignore.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I want to take the time to thank you all for the comments, even the negative ones. I will learn to not be so impulsive at shows in the future. Here's some full pictures of the obverse and reverse as well as a few more close ups. Sorry for the mediocre image quality, I did my best with the photos.
Will PCGS take the coin if I wasn't the one that submitted it? I bought it at a coin show. I didn't want to sell or trade it either since in my opinion it is a problem coin.> @beboplawyer said:
I agree that this was overall an important lesson to learn. This is the only coin I've regretted buying. Thank you for the comment.> @coinkat said:
40x and 10x Loupe. The lines are harder to see under a 5x but still barely visible.> @breakdown said:
Certainly, FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) is a real thing.
deferring to you, wouldn't sliding around constitute wear?
>
I removed all but the one remaining image from the above quoted post. And based on it, I would have guessed no better than MS62 for the coin’s grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
and now that you mention it, i've seen abrasions like that on MS coins from the mint. you buy those kennedy half dollars or small dollars in bags and that's how they come out looking.
Why? Numerous people asked for pictures of the obverse and reverse.
I've written here before that the only coin you really must have is something you see once every five years or so, that speaks to you. Other coins, even though they may be expensive, aren't rare. If they aren't rare, you can be picky and wait.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
In a sense, yes. But as a practical matter, the way coins are actually graded in the real world, friction and abrasions are not considered wear until they result in a loss of detail and impaired luster. And coins can take quite a beating before that happens.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sorry for the confusion. The only reason I did that was so that it would be crystal clear which image I was commenting on.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why is PCGS flooding my email with this post. I’ve gotten about 30 emails and none are complete. Please make them stop.
You have it bookmarked. If you unchecked the star, they'll stop.
Not just bookmarked or posted to, but you have a setting checked off asking for these updates. I have hundreds of discussions bookmarked and receive no update emails.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
this will be familiar to fellow forumites:
going off just the obverse, it's too dark for me to grade that side. if other people like it as a 64+ then you'll need to post a reverse shot of that size so the whole coin can be graded.
looking at the obverse, the hairlines don't seem so bad, but you know they are there. that bothers you. 5 years from now it'll still bother you. this is why people are telling you to sell it.
i don't know the costs, but if you live near a show that pcgs has on-site grading and people here think it's over graded, you might try a grade guarantee.
Purely my humble opinion.
If the pictures are anywhere close to how the coin looks in hand, I would not be happy with that as a 64+
While I detect that the slab looks somewhat battle scarred, the coin itself looks like it has too many marks, too little strike pressure and something else that my eye doesn't go for, but I can't really tell you what it is.
I've seen 62 mentioned in several other posts, that's what the image makes me feel - but it's really difficult to judge a coin by a few images. Too many things can be hidden by or enhanced by the light angles.
Here’s a PCGS 64, which may have been on the other side of grading results:
Well, just Love coins, period.