Did A CACG Key Date Pop 4/0 Silver Roosie Just Sell At Auction For About 10% of the PCGS P.G.?
wondercoin
Posts: 16,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
A series near and dear to my heart. I was the #1 set holder in the 1999 PCGS Registry competition. Pop 4/0 at PCGS to this day!
My apologies in advance if I misread anything here.
1955 Roosevelt Dime CACG MS-67+ FB (Toned) SOLD - $462.38 (04-21-2024).
Last PCGS Auction of same date/grade in PCGS holder:
1955 Roosevelt Dime PCGS MS-67+ FB (Daniel D. Biddle Collection) (Toned)
Last sale of a (pop 4/0) PCGS-MS67+ FB specimen - SOLD - $6,693.75 (04-02-2023). 14x as much money!
Any thoughts on this?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
2
Comments
I'm a little confused. Was the $ 462 coin Dannys ? Or the 6K one Dannys ? I'm guessing Dannys was the 6K. Roosies near and dear to me also, although I'll never approach your memorable set. I do have quite a few of Dannys silvers in my set and just recently received a few of his clads.
The first reason that comes to mind is what I presume is the limited participation so far for this series in the CACG registry. This I interpret as the primary reason for the prior price, on this coin or practically any other like it.
If it was a PCGS or maybe even NGC (?) coin, result might have differed noticeably.
If it's not that, this is a series with a really low preference generically. Everyone else is satisfied with a half point or one point lower for a fraction of the price for a still nice coin.
Tom147- I edited the post to show the Biddle coin sale at $6,693 and the sale 3 days ago of a CACG coin at $462.
Wondercoin.
Nowhere near a Roosie expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m finding your analysis accurate. It’s not exactly the most desired series and you are 100% correct that unless you’re hardcore over these dimes, it’s EXCEPTIONALLY hard to swallow the price jumps.
Also, NOT trying to hijack this thread, but I’d bet the little Roosie is probably the least collected modern series after only the modern dollars; SBA forward. Maybe not even including the Sac’s and just the ugly Susie’s. Sorry and please don’t hate me. Just my two cents cuz it ain’t worth a dime!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I don’t know but very fascinating!! If it’s the same coin then a bidding war broke out over the first one and the second auction coin in the new holder was not recognized…
Coin Finder. They are two entirely different coins.
Wondercoin.
Are these the two coins that are being compared?
If so, then saying 'toned' might not mean equivalent.
Toning has often seen increased prices. Other factors noted above also.
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Lilolme- The PCGS coin (your bottom pic) sold for 14x the CACG coin (exact same grade). But, even the prior sale of the same date/grade coin at PCGS a few years early (with a near blast white reverse) sold at the same auction for about 8x the CACG price! Hence, this was a fascinating result this past Sunday, at least in my mind.
Wondercoin.
To my eyes the PCGS coin is far superior. Whether it is worth the price is up to the collector.
The PCGS coin is 14X's more attractive than the GCAG coin.
peacockcoins
Thanks.
I see it as WCC implied above - a top pop pcgs registry coin and with superior toning versus a cacg.
I do think the cacg is low since it appears to be in the range of a 67 (not plus) value.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Registry fever plus color bump = bidders
For such a common & thinly collected at elite levels series the buyer for a top pop is really only going to be a registry player who wants their coins plug and play in system. The CACG coin just is nice dime prices in a sea of just as lovely 66s it seems strong to me too.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Impressive $4,500 PCGS PG at MS67+. Impressive PG as color hasn't been factored in the PG from my understanding.
Of note, half a grade lower at MS67 has a PG of $650.
Yep, especially since a half point lower is $650, vs $4,500.
This may not be good news for CACG. More that likely, the PCGS coins were purchased by PCGS Registry collectors. Will the CACG registry ever have a strong demand commanding top prices, it is not known at this time. The appeal of the coin is always a factor, and does make a difference, but it not uncommon for a PCGS Registry Collector to pinch their nose for Registry points. Interesting to consider. If PCGS were to allow this CACG coin in their registry, would the sale price have been different?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Here's the CACView:
Question:
To my knowledge, CAC wouldn't even look at silver Roosevelts for stickering. Why all of the sudden are they slabbing them?
Secondly, I would rather have a QA sticker than the CAC for Roosies.
Later, Paul.
Someone got a bargain on Sunday Mitch,
Perhaps contact the owner and buy it😀
‘’Interesting to consider. If PCGS were to allow this CACG coin in their registry, would the sale price have been different?’’
IMHO yes it would have. In 1999, my #1 PCGS registry set had an MS67FB Top Pop in it. I would pay $1,500 today SIGHT UNSEEN for any one of the four PCGS-MS67+FB coins. Unless I determined myself that CACG is being way too loose on Mint State Roosie grading, I might consider buying CACG graded coins for this series if they were permitted for inclusion in the PCGS Registry. Since they are not currently permitted, I couldn’t buy any for that purchase absent a sizeable discount to the PCGS coin.
Wondercoin.
Here's something to consider...
All of my GC Saved Searches are for PCGS coins and have yet to be updated to include CACG coins (not sure if I will add them or not). As such I wouldn't even be aware of any CACG coins.
Further, the weekly email from PCGS that advertises for GC compares my PCGS set registries to the auction inventory to show me possible upgrades. This coin would not show up in that "search" either.
I sold this CACG Merc at HA 2 months ago and was not impressed with the sale price when this coin has a CAC Greysheet guide price of $595 and PCGS retail is $500. The gross sale price of $444 was OK but certainly did not reflect any premium for being CACG and after fees and whatnot was really disappointing.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1937-d-10c-ms67-full-bands-cacg-mintage-14-146-000/a/132406-21134.s
Edited to add: Also, PCGS Coinfacts which I use to find coins a lot doesn't support CACG coins.
Good points @ProofCollection.
More reason for continued strength of PCGS.
Here's the coin:
Zoins. To me, the Great Photo (larger one) prominently shows the two contact marks on Roosevelt’s neck while the CAC image not nearly so much. Do you see that? In fact, when I first discovered the existence of the completed Sunday auction of the $462 coin, it didn’t even dawn on me that the coin in the (3) auction pics was the exact same coin as the CAC imaged one (although admittedly I wasn’t paying close enough attention to that at that time).
Wondercoin
That is a very good point. I wasn't looking that closely but found it very curious now that you mention it. The marks are there in both photos but much less prominent in the CAC photos, and took some time for me to see them.
Here are the images together for comparison.
Zoins. If you also included the other (2) GC images of the CACG holder from the auction, you might see even more how one looking for a split second or two might have thought they were actually different coins. Anyway, even the (2) photos you put together shows the difference as I mentioned.
Wondercoin
Here's the link: greatcollections.com/1955-Roosevelt-Dime-CACG-MS-67-FB-Toned
Looks like a rip.
Images added above.
Thanks to both of you.
Wondercoin
An interesting thing about this URL is that the "+" gets stripped out so if you don't click through you might think its a MS67FB not a MS67+FB.
Something @ianrussell might want to think about.
Large price differentials are one of the risks with condition rarities like this one.
Mitch is spot on regarding the two reed marks on the neck.
I agree with Crypto. "Registry fever plus color bump = bidders"
I wonder how long it will take for the CACG coin to cross to PCGS and go to auction. Lots of upside don't you think?
When there are two price points, rather hard to know which one is more reflective of the actual market.
Lablover. It’s funny you say that because last night I contacted “the great one” out in Idaho to fill him in on this thread and I asked him his opinion on what the coin was likely worth as a new PCGS POP 5 or 6 without nice color. I don’t want to misquote him (so you can ask him yourself) but I believe he made it clear to me that his buy price would not be higher than “$1,200”. Back out $100 - $130 total to cross it and you are left with about $1,050 - $1,100 net value against the $462 Sunday auction price (if the coin crosses). The difference is a color bump as has been suggested by a few here (closer to 5x for great color, but far less than the 14x color bump our esteemed expert Pat Braddick put on the coins)! 😉
Just my 2 cents!
Wondercoin.
If it crosses it’s a rip. I saw it when it was first listed, my thought on it was PCGS has a higher standard for roosies than CAC.
I actually did not revisit the coin.
Glad it was posted here for discussion
Thanks
Martin
‘’Further, the weekly email from PCGS that advertises for GC compares my PCGS set registries to the auction inventory to show me possible upgrades. This coin would not show up in that "search" either.
I sold this CACG Merc at HA 2 months ago and was not impressed with the sale price when this coin has a CAC Greysheet guide price of $595 and PCGS retail is $500. The gross sale price of $444 was OK but certainly did not reflect any premium for being CACG and after fees and whatnot was really disappointing.
Edited to add: Also, PCGS Coinfacts which I use to find coins a lot doesn't support CACG coins.’’
Proof collection - I think you identified here the fabulous marketing PCGS has established for its brand. I get those emails all the time from PCGS about all the coins that might improve my dozens of registry sets that are appearing in upcoming GC auctions, David Lawrence auctions and other venues. It really is a “call to action”. I often drop everything I am doing to see how much money I may need to spend this week! lol.
Wondercoin.
‘’If it crosses it’s a rip. I saw it when it was first listed, my thought on it was PCGS has a higher standard for roosies than CAC. I actually did not revisit the coin. Glad it was posted here for discussion. Thanks Martin.”
Interesting development here - the winner of the GC coin auction was a dealer who reached out to me with a proposal I accepted. I will likely try to cross this coin to PCGS after I receive it. This would be my first experience trying to cross a CACG coin to PCGS. Might as well be a key date coin in a coin series I started my registry set collecting in about 26 years ago! Hoping for the best.
Wondercoin.
Edited to add: I just saw that this 1955-P dime is the first ever CACG coin to achieve the finest known grade of MS67+FB across the entire silver dime series. Only (9) coins have ever earned the FB designation at CACG to date. It looks like (71) Roosies have already been graded without the FB designation including one coin in MS68. They do not price + coins, but show the MS67FB undergrade at $650.00 in their Price Guide. Now, I am not sure if it should be crossed or held onto as the first ever MS67+FB silver Roosie ever graded at CACG. Decisions, decisions. lol.
@wondercoin
I sure wouldn’t crack it out
Good luck with whatever decision you make. It’s a nice dime either way. But for now it looks like to make it a money coin it needs PCGS plastic at that grade.
Also, Thanks for the info on it.
Martin
I sold the coin to @wondercoin .
Always a fun experience when negotiating with Mitch😀. I got a fair price for the coin and Mitch always sends a rocket quick check.
I would leave it alone in the cacg plastic but the temptation to cross is certainly there. Gorgeous surfaces on the coin , very pretty.
I enjoyed it for all of 48 hours😀
Cross-over?
@Zoins
Ya I guess what I’m thinking is to get the most value for that coin it would
Be better in PCGS 67+fb holder. How ever it got there.
It’s a nice coin I just don’t see it getting the + but what do I know I’m often wrong on theses things. That’s why I collect and not deal
Martin
Thank you AZDAVY and welcome to the discussion!
Here’s what we know so far:
Now, the next question might be whether it is easy or difficult to cross over CACG coins to PCGS. I need to make that decision on whether I want to even try to make this coin a pop 5/0 coin at PCGS (currently a pop 4/0 in the grade of MS67+FB). Or, leave it as the pop 1/0 CACG coin for the very difficult 1955-P 10C in high grade FB.
On a side note - it is amazing that this dated (CLASSIC?) dime is now about 70 years old! I remember living in Philly as a young boy in the late 1960’s trying to hunt down this elusive silver dime date (which were hard to find in change even in the 1960’s!)
Fun fact - With respect to all Roosevelt Silver Dimes, the lowest mintage coin issued for circulation was the 1955-P Roosie at just 12,450,181 pieces. The 1949-S Roosie had more than a million extra coins minted as opposed to the 1955-P, but is considered THE key to the series by most Roosie enthusiasts. In the clad series, the 1996-W Roosevelt Dime had a mintage of only 1,457,000, but this coin was only sold as part of the 1996 Uncirculated Mint Set. The highest mintage Roosie I believe was the 1967 clad Dime at a mintage of an astounding 2,244,007,320 pieces!
Wondercoin.
$462.38 for ANY 1955 Roosevelt dime strikes me as absurdly high. It is just another ultra-common date modern coin with an "opinion" that supposedly makes it very valuable ... but not to me.
To each his own. With only 21 1955 dimes share the PCGS opinion of MS67 they are nearly impossible to come by. Why should the price be lower when one of these comes to market only ever year or two? Perhaps if these are so common in this good condition, you should acquire a bunch and submit them to PCGS and make out handsomely.
$462.38 for ANY 1955 Roosevelt dime strikes me as absurdly high. It is just another ultra-common date modern coin with an "opinion" that supposedly makes it very valuable ... but not to me.
Now that is too funny!
A 70 year old modern coin, but the Classic Commem series ended just the year before! 😂
Absurdly high at $462.38 - are you listening AZDAVEY! I’m glad he missed the part about the last coin in a PCGS insert (exact same grade) fetching about $6,500.00! 😉
Wondercoin.
Similar to the discussion on the surviving 1909s VDB cents.
Everybody questioned the surviving numbers.
Don't recall anyone estimating the number of collectors for the coin, and the demand from ordinary type collectors, key date hoarders, and speculators.
Interesting Roosie results.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I didn't miss anything. I simply don't buy into the ultra-high grade plastic moderns bit.
You don't have to buy into something to profit from it. Clearly there is profit to be made from what you view as readily and easily attainable coins. I'm looking for an MS66FB or MS67FB myself. If you can procure one for me that would be fantastic.
I haven’t missed anything either- Including this Thread started by Mr. Eureka and entitled…
‘’Does 291fifth have anything positive to say about anything?’’
Dear 291fifth - would you actually like to learn something about condition rarities such as this 1955-P 10C in MS67+FB? I’ve been studying this field of numismatics for about 57 years now and I literally learn something new nearly every day.
Wondercoin.
Can you request a minimum of 67+ at PCGS for crossing?
I recall being mesmerized at a Long Beach coin show twenty years ago when I saw within a dealer's case a few PCGS MS68 Roosevelt dimes. The luster was mind blowing. Some had light pastel toning that is so rarely encountered.
When I approached to table upon my last go-around- about three hours later- half were sold and two had "HOLD" sticky notes on them.
It was eye opening to experience the true difference between your average run-of-the-mill UNC silver dime and those lofty enough to obtain this grade.
peacockcoins
A lot of moderns are very hard to find in nice condition. This spurs many collectors to seek the finest coins and many of these finest coins are in what you call "expensive plastic".
The '55 comes nicer than most moderns but is still pretty tough in nice solid Gem with a good strike from new dies. Lots survive in rolls but most rolls won't have high grade coins.