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Does Eli Manning deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?
doubledragon
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in Sports Talk
He's going to eligible in 2025.
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doubledragon
Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
doubledragon
Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
doubledragon
Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
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It all depends if you count Super Bowl wins
Other than that no I don't think he should get in, and yes part of it is I cannot stand him
A QB from NY who won two Super Bowls. He's a stone cold lock for the Hall. Not even debatable.
Agreed
But does he deserve to be in is the question
Yes, I think Eli deserves it.
I know, you're still upset that Eli took away that undefeated season from you. 😭 😉
Of course,
Career statwise he was nothing to right home about,he just had two great postseason runs that not only did they both end in SB wins,one even shutdown the geatest team the NFL has ever seen out there. That last one might be the deciding factor on why he should get in.
Eric
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Eli is a no for me. If you changed his last name he would be viewed very differently. He was good but never really special.
I dont believe in the rings argument, but even the first SB he won he was bad that season. Not to mention Asante Samuel literally dropped an INT that went right through his hands that would have taken a ring away from Eli. He was fortunate to be on a very good team
Namath is in, so Eli is in.
Most of the QBs in the league should be in every year if thats the standard
Pasted:
Eli Manning played 16 seasons for the Giants. He threw for 57,023 yards and 366 touchdowns. He was selected to play in 4 Pro Bowls.
That ain't bad. The 366 touchdowns is 10th all time.
Was Eli among the top talented QB's all time? Of course not.
Does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Definitely.
Those stats aren't bad at all and forget the 2 rings part,with NE hoping to find a franchise QB very soon in this next draft I'd take those Eli numbers from this next guy in a heartbeat.
Lots of QBs in this past 10-20years have been putting up good career statistics,Eli too, Its just that I think that he never had a statistical season that really stood out. That's where I think his two rings are what get him over that edge especially with how he won his first one.
Eric
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What's interesting is, if Eli makes the Hall does Tom Coughlin also get in at some point after? He's won two rings as a HC, one more as an assistant and has led two different franchises to championship games. He also has a COTY on his resume as well.
170-150 in the Regular season
12-7 in the playoffs
Yeah,I'd put him in there too at some point.
Eric
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yes, he will be a HOFer.
boy oh boy do i hate eli manning
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Eli will get in, he shouldnt but he will
Eli had a non-winning record in over half of his seasons (9 of 16). Led the NFL in picks three times. Never led in any positive stats. 244 picks in 234 games. Career passer rating of 84.1 in an era when the entire league averaged 89.
He'll get in but there was never a single day during his career that anyone thought he was great let alone elite. No, he doesn't deserve it.
Namath is in, so Eli is in.> @Basebal21 said:
That is not necessarily the implication I intended to make, but that’s fair. I was trying to respond to deserve in the context of a similar enshrined case.
In Eli’s specific case then no. Of course not. But relative to who is already in assuming that is the empirical standard …. Of course yes.
I don’t actually know what the football hall of fame considers the criteria for a hall of fame career. How they value individual vs team accomplishments etc.
It is a fair point which is whats wrong with the voters. Theres guys in the HOF that really shoulnt be there and the NFL isnt the only sport that has that issue. Aikmann got in from the success of the Cowboys as another example
Id rather see the voters do more on who should actually be there than saying they were better than someone there. The biggest pet peeve with the voters though is the whole I wont vote for someone the first year thing. Gates was one of the best TEs of all time and didnt get in his first year for the voting.
Theres just to many people getting put in that really dont deserve it
Didn't he beat Brady twice in the Super bowl? He would get my vote. People remember for what you did in the big games.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
If he gets in it will be because of the Super Bowl wins. More to the point, it will be because of the painfully stupid people who count Super Bowl wins as a QB stat.
Actually Super Bowl wins seems to be a pretty good indicator of how good a qb was.
Marino and Tarkenton are arguably the best QB’s who didn’t win a Super Bowl. Dan was in the playoffs 10 years during his career. His numbers aren’t as good in the playoffs with his passer rating 9 points lower as compared to the regular season. Fran was in the playoffs 5 years and just sucked as his passer rating was 22 points lower in the postseason.
Imo it’s their own fault they couldn’t get it done, Marino had elite receivers and Fran simply choked in big games. So if they could rise to the occasion like Montana etc. they wouldn’t have that blemish of not winning a Super Bowl on their record. So in my opinion they should be downgraded for not being able to get it done in the big games.
The fact is the QB’s on the field are by far the two biggest factors that will determine the outcome of the game.
So Super Bowl wins should count on their records. Some rise up like Eli and some don’t like Marino and Fran and rivers.
This is simply not true, but if you've got a credible analysis that demonstrates that it is true, I will certainly consider it.
My guess - I haven't done any analysis, either - is that the better defense has a stronger correlation to winning Super Bowls than any other factor. Either that, or the team (including, but certainly not limited to the QB) that makes the fewest game-changing errors (interceptions, fumbles, dropped passes, big penalties, etc.) Sure, there are games where the better QB is decisive, and just as many where the QB sucks and is decisive the other way. But there are also lots of games, including Super Bowls, where the QB is a bystander (Namath, Griese) and games where a team wins despite their QB being absolutely atrocious (Manning with Denver).
And we all watched Seattle lose a Super Bowl due to sudden onset brain damage to their coach. Yes, Brady was great in that game, but the Patriots still lose absent the Seattle coach forgetting how to play football. The notion that Tom Brady is a better QB BECAUSE Marshawn Lynch wasn't allowed to walk in the winning TD is so stupid it's nothing short of offensive to ask any sentient being to believe it. Still, it's not half as offensive as expecting anyone to believe that Jeff Hostettler "won" a Super Bowl and Jim Kelly "lost" a Super Bowl BECAUSE Scott Norwood missed a field goal.
But if you credit Brady and Hostettler with a "W" that's exactly what you're doing. Stop it. It's offensive.
Teams on the field are the two biggest factors that determine the outcome of a game.
Eagles 41 Pats 33 2018.
Pats 13, Rams 3 2019.
Chiefs 38 Eagles 35 2023
Thats just SBs. Brady has 4 post season games that he threw 3 INTs, the Pats were 3-1 in those games.
Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, Brad Johnson all SB winning QBs since the year 2000.
We can go back further Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Ken Stabler, Joe Namath, Jim Plunkett, Jim McMahon, all won SBs
SB wins are absolutely not a good indicator of how good a QB was
Chat GPT says that refs have the largest impact on the game. Just sayin.
This comment cracks me up. You're the same person that once tried telling me that ALL of NE 's success was due to Tom Brady and that all of Belichick's other draft picks over the years didn't matter because they only won because of Tom.
You really do love taking that contrarian view on literally every topic just to argue for argument's sake. 🤣😂🤣
Eric
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In defense of Tarkenton, take a look at who he had on offense to throw to...........nobody.
The Vikings running game in Fran's 3 Super Bowls was BEYOND PATHETIC. Chuck Foreman was the only good/great player besides Fran, and he was more of a pass catcher than hard nosed runner.
Marino didn't seem to have many very good defensive players helping him if I remember correctly. Maybe 1 year he had a great D.
Look at the great teams, usually had great players on offense and defense.
The Vikings just need a re-brand. As is custom in Minnesota choosing a Lakota, or even Ioway name might be appropriate. I would propose.
He Jate Nata
Which I think would roughly translate as 'Forked Horn Head'. Close enough. Let's go!
Has a nice side-effect of really bugging some people, which is... priceless.
I didn’t really make my position on the subject very clear.
What I should have said is this……..
make a list of your top 20-25 regular season qb’s during the Super Bowl era, and I’m guessing only a handful have not won a Super Bowl.
Banzai made a good case about why tarkenton and Marino didn’t win one, but look at the rest, Montana, Dawson, Starr, Staubach, Brady, Elway, Manning, Mahomes, Favre, Brees, Rodgers, Young, Unitas, Warner, Griese, Aikman.
A good percentage of your top 20-25 have probably won at least 1 Super Bowl,that’s what I meant by it being a good indicator.
Of course there’s always going to be average qb’s winning a Super Bowl, just the nature of the game. Not every team can field an all time great.
I’m betting in the future Josh Allen will win at least a couple and burrow also if he stays healthy. Odds say they will.
I never once said that their success was ALL because of Brady. What I said was he was more important than the coach.
Hes also a unique outlier in the fact that he took pennies on the dollar for his contracts so that a better TEAM would be around him.
People really do seem to like to twist what is said instead of having a discussion
When I'm deciding who are my GOAT players at a certain position or just in any sport, I tend to factor these three attributes:
1. Where does his career stats rank all time compared to the other greats? For QB, its mostly passing yards, completion percentage, total touchdowns, TD/INT ratio, passer rating and QBR.
2. Longevity OR if his career is on the shorter side, then his best 10 year stretch. I credit players for their durability.
3. Did he lead his team to division titles, conference champion games and super bowls? Did he win those? I account for regular season winning percentage as well as in the playoffs and since I'm trying to decide if a certain QB belongs in the GOAT debate I definitely account for SB record.
Number three is certainly not the most important attribute to consider but it can absolutely be the deciding factor. We all mostly agree that Eli Manning's career numbers aren't probably enough to get him into the Hall Of Fame but his two SB rings will probably be the deciding factor. He's eligible for the 2025 HOF class so we'll know soon enough if those two great playoff runs he went on are enough.
Saying all of that, i get a laugh at seeing so many people getting all bent out of shape over an opinion when this entire argument is nothing but opinion based.
Eric
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Eli Manning was the number one pick in the draft, played for one team his entire career, had two of the best QB postseason runs of all time and basically never missed a game for 16 seasons.
Do the stats even matter?
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None of those stats point to him being a great QB.
Being drafted #1 actually points out that he was not as good as they thought he would be. Both Philip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger were better than him and they were drafted later.
One team his entire career, nice, but doesn't mean he was great. .500 record, not great.
He did have 2 great postseasons, he also had twice that many where he didn't win a game.
He was very durable.
Looks to me like he had 4 decent to very good years but if you look at QBR, he was in the top 10 four times, (never in the top 5) and twice he barely made it at #9.
He did lead the league in interceptions 3 times.
The defense was very good in those post seasons, but he was exceptional.
I don't see him as a Hall of Famer.
Two exceptional years doesn't do it for me.
Well the NFL and MLB hall of fames for many years now, have elected, i call them "stat builders" to their Hall of Fames. These are players such as Eli, who weren't premier type players, but over a long period of time accumulated impressive lifetime stats, with a few season highlights. This is especially prevalent in MLB.
Bill Mazeroski got in simply for hitting one dramatic WS home run against the Yankees, along with his accumulated stats.
Eli gets in for similar reasons, with winning two Super Bowls making it a mortal lock. But I agree with your basic premise.
Jerry F'ing Markbreit!!!
(Look it up)
Steve
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
QBs with more than one championship:
Bart Starr, Bob Griese, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Jim Plunkett, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, John Elway, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Ben Rothlisberger, Patrick Mahomes
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People go crazy when it comes to this topic and often would rather apply narratives rather than facts.
If there were no names attached, any quarterback with the 8th most TDs and 8th most passing yards in league history that also was instrumental in their teams winning two SuperBowls deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
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I guess if you want to say there are less deserving players who are in the HOF, then you are correct, he should be in.
The question posed was, does he "deserve" to be in the HOF.
I would say no, but wouldn't be upset or surprised if he got in.
"The question posed was, does he "deserve" to be in the HOF."
I had already previously stated that my answer is Yes.
I see that. Your response was "definitely".
His biggest accomplishments were a long career and those two Super Bowl runs.
Since he also made the playoffs 4 other times and lost in the first game each time, that shows to me he was NOT a great post season player. In those 4 games he threw 3TDs and had 7INTs.
He's the Jim Kaat of Qurterbacks.
"He's the Jim Kaat of Qurterbacks."
That's a good analogy in my view.
I've already discussed this before in other threads over the years, so I'll keep it short. Would Eli or Kaat be in MY hall of fame. No.
But Kaat is and Eli will be in THE hall of fame.
No.
Next topic?
I personally think was good not great. He had 2 great post season runs. If SB wins were the only criteria then where is Plunkett. I believe he will get in.
Matt
He would get my vote.
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Ralph
I love the way you put that as if that’s something everyone does routinely. Yes, let’s just set those aside: one of the greatest postseason performances by any QB in the history of the league (winning 3 road games along the way I might add). Twice.
+ 8-0 record 15 TD 2 INT
8-4 record 18 TD 9 INT
So yes, in games they lost he didn’t play always well. I know that you watch the last one against Green Bay and count the on the money passes dropped by receivers: I had to take my shoes and socks off to keep count. He was dreadful in one. Meh in the other two.
He was also sensational eight times.
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Two other points to consider…
There’s a chance Tiki Barber gets in one day but as of now there are no Giants from those offenses that are in the Hall of Fame.
In the 15ish years at QB, the Giants got progressively better his first four years, winning the SB in year four. In year five they were the best team in the league hands down…until Plaxico Burress shot himself in the leg in a nightclub in NYC. In no uncertain terms, that incident destroyed that season and that team in an instant. In many ways, they never recovered from that shot.
(Pun intended)
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ELI? What has he done to earn a place in the HOF? Not no participation trophies here!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Two good regular seasons and two great post seasons seem to be enough for some people.
Not me.
They scored 25 points once in those 8 games. He threw for under 200 yards twice, had a passer rating under 90 three times, and also had a game with no touchdowns. He was sensational a few times but all 8? Nah.
Not every team plays with the same style. If it produces a championship (or more than one), I believe it is worthy of respect.
The Giants teams that won were a team that tried to win by controlling the clock, shortening the games and having more points than the other team. Teams that play that style are unlikely to produce high point totals.
Stats really don’t tell the whole story and I don’t think it makes a ton of sense to supply them without context.
As I recall, Tom Brady threw one touchdown pass the entire postseason (3 games) when the Patriots had defeated the Rams for their first SuperBowl win in New England franchise history. Objectively speaking, I would say that is about as unimpressive statistically as you can get.
And yet, you go watch those games and I think you’ll come away with a great appreciation for those performances.
I also recall plenty of gaudy passing TD totals by Peyton Manning and that a higher percentage than many remember or realize often came on first and goal from the one when he audibles away from the hand off to Edgerrin James to instead hit Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne and coincidentally pump his own totals.
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Oh, make no mistake - I'm not knocking the results or whatever. I just strongly disagree that a quarterback can be "sensational" with his team not scoring much.