@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
@TrickleCharge said:
It looks like there are about 1.67 million items listed in just the U.S. coins category on eBay right at this moment versus about 11 thousand listed at Great Collections.
Even if the US government fined eBay for each sold counterfeit it probably wouldn't make a difference to them. eBay has very little incentive to do anything more than they already have about the issue and that is unlikely to change.
Also note that GC handles ALL items. Ebay handles zero items. Authentication at a distance is not simple.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
While it doesn't auction items, you can add that little company, Amazon to the list.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How much do you think that "numistmatic team" would cost? And what about other hobbies where
there is dishonesty? Does eBay hire more teams to combat those problems and issues? And, if all this is done- who
pays for this? Higher fees for the buyers (and sellers)?
Got to think this through.
For a genuine fix: They do need to streamline their reporting as of now good coin auctions are being pulled (as stated above) and bad coin auctions are getting through. Get rid of the AI- that experiment didn't work- and go back to basics.
And the idea of banning sellers who repeat their offenses is a solid one.
This is no different than FB….that doesn’t even have a phone number to call and talk to anyone when there’s a problem with the platform. How many posts have I seen of the ‘your friend may have died in this accident’ and when I report it as a scam I get the same AI generated reply that they find no problem with it. And this is why AI is not good for so many things. It can’t see the problems we do. Ian is right….. But with so many listings eBay can’t afford to police every auction…although maybe they could have a numismatist on retainer that could check and verify listings every now and then. Even though I purchased my last two vehicles on eBay, it’s kinda hard to make a counterfeit car. 😉
They must hire top professionals to hold the frauds accountable. Even in the natural world when unwanted animals like rats multiply their predators such as snakes, raptors, etc. multiply.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
Having a legitimate coin pulled becuase of single report is not good, but that sounds like a one off and doesnt happen nearly as much as the opposite scenario where a coin is reported 30 times and the listings still standing. Obviously, both extremes are bad, but it cant possibly be that difficult to code the software to take action if a listing gets more than 3 reports or something like that. Or maybe implement some type of credit system where random accounts making a report isnt weighted as high as a long standing account that often correctly reports items that eventually get taken down. I just feel like its not a difficult problem to solve, or at least improve, with 2024 technology.
Craiglist, FB, and IG are essentially forums, and dont directly profit from coin sales. Hibid and Proxibid yes, they should also have accountability, but i feel like the volume there pales in comparison to the bay.
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How much do you think that "numistmatic team" would cost? And what about other hobbies where
there is dishonesty? Does eBay hire more teams to combat those problems and issues? And, if all this is done- who
pays for this? Higher fees for the buyers (and sellers)?
Got to think this through.
For a genuine fix: They do need to streamline their reporting as of now good coin auctions are being pulled (as stated above) and bad coin auctions are getting through. Get rid of the AI- that experiment didn't work- and go back to basics.
And the idea of banning sellers who repeat their offenses is a solid one.
So out of the billions in revenue, none should be allocated for training or hiring of a competent team?
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How much do you think that "numistmatic team" would cost? And what about other hobbies where
there is dishonesty? Does eBay hire more teams to combat those problems and issues? And, if all this is done- who
pays for this? Higher fees for the buyers (and sellers)?
Got to think this through.
For a genuine fix: They do need to streamline their reporting as of now good coin auctions are being pulled (as stated above) and bad coin auctions are getting through. Get rid of the AI- that experiment didn't work- and go back to basics.
And the idea of banning sellers who repeat their offenses is a solid one.
So out of the billions in revenue, none should be allocated for training or hiring of a competent team?
The only way they hire a competent team is if it will result in profits which exceed that cost. eBay doesn't really care about making an actual effort to stop this from happening because eBay doesn't really care about coin collecting. Doing so would ultimately hurt their bottom line or force increased fees.
@braddick said: "So out of the billions in revenue, none should be allocated for training or hiring of a competent team?"
I see what you did there.
Jump to a conclusion no one is stating or supporting.
What part of my response to you indicates eBay should spend nothing to combat fraud/counterfeits?
Your proposal is simply not reasonable.
I fail to see why paying for training is unreasonable. It's not that hard to identify the blatant fakes and pull them. You stated "Who pays for this"
My answer, Ebay should.
Ebay paid $59M in fines last January for selling equipment that can manufacture illegal drugs. Of course, this is more serious than fake coins, but eBay will react to whatever the FTC and DOJ want to enforce. Something needs to be done.
Scumnuker foiled a lot of fakes on eBay around 2005.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Scumnuker foiled a lot of fakes on eBay around 2005.
I think you are remembering it better than me. I said it was “the posse” earlier in this thread, but now I think “the posse” was a different anonymous group that was trying to get rid of coin doctors and that it was Scumnuker that used to put in nuclear bids on counterfeits to protect newbies from buying them and to harass counterfeit sellers and eBay. But there were others that joined in and helped Scumnuker. I think all the unwanted attention it caused to the sellers of counterfeit coins did make eBay take action because they weren’t getting their pay for all the unpaid auctions.
That means the buyers and sellers will pay additional fees.
You also stated above: "So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live."
It is that alone I find to be unreasonable.
I guess we simply disagree and that is ok. They have 11,000+ employees....
Trained moderators in their respective categories would substantially reduce the amount of calls/inquiries that they have to review. The cost is not unreasonable and could actually reduce their employee count if done right- in my opinion.
That means the buyers and sellers will pay additional fees.
You also stated above: "So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live."
It is that alone I find to be unreasonable.
I guess we simply disagree and that is ok. They have 11,000+ employees....
Trained moderators in their respective categories would substantially reduce the amount of calls/inquiries that they have to review. The cost is not unreasonable and could actually reduce their employee count if done right- in my opinion.
Thanks for discussing this in a civilized manner.
I do appreciate your thoughts and opinion.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
@jmlanzaf - profiting off the sale of illegal items is wrong.
eBay is serving as a broker - receiving a commission to link buyers and sellers.
What if this was a dealer and the excuse was just, “ Well these counterfeit coins are just a consignment, I never had legal possession of them and am only facilitating”. Ridiculous.
I think you’d be singing a different tune if this was illegal drugs, weapons, or some other even more highly objectionable goods or services.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
VISA and Mastercard aren’t playing host to the transactions - they aren’t helping sellers find buyers.
And banks routinely get in plenty of legal trouble for customer transactions involving illegal goods even though they often aren’t even aware of them.
Those with standing should file complaints with their state legal oversight entities; AG, depts. of consumer affairs. I'd think that stock holders would have standing; also buyers ripped off by bogus products, maybe even honest sellers affected by these frauds. If people wanted to be diligent boy scouts they could buy the fake products then after filing for returns and complaints with ebay, file with their states to explain how ebay is permitting clearly illegal business activity.
Bottom line - if you are 1) brokering or linking buyers and sellers, 2) profiting or attempting to profit off the transaction and 3) aware or should be aware that the goods are illegal, you are responsible.
eBay should be held to the same standard as any other auction or sale venue. The fact there are so many listings for counterfeit coins that persist even when reported is evidence to me that eBay is failing its legal and moral responsibilities.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
While it doesn't auction items, you can add that little company, Amazon to the list.😉
Quite true. And they could all do more to prevent fraud. But there are limits and you could end up throwing out the good with the bad. I mean, one simple solution is to only allow certified coins. But that would eliminate a lot of legitimate material (and 80% of my sales).
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How long would it take you to review a million listings? They could, but it is not simple nor likely to be effective. It's not that easy to authenticate from photos.
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How long would it take you to review a million listings? They could, but it is not simple nor likely to be effective. It's not that easy to authenticate from photos.
They dont need to review a million listings, only the ones that get reported .
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
@jmlanzaf - profiting off the sale of illegal items is wrong.
eBay is serving as a broker - receiving a commission to link buyers and sellers.
What if this was a dealer and the excuse was just, “ Well these counterfeit coins are just a consignment, I never had legal possession of them and am only facilitating”. Ridiculous.
I think you’d be singing a different tune if this was illegal drugs, weapons, or some other even more highly objectionable goods or services.
Not really. I'm an anarchist at heart. Sell all the drugs you want.
No one is saying it's "right" but that's different than my complaints:
Ebay is not the "seller". I could live with "broker ".
Singling out ebay ignores everyone else who "isn't doing enough".
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
While it doesn't auction items, you can add that little company, Amazon to the list.😉
Quite true. And they could all do more to prevent fraud. But there are limits and you could end up throwing out the good with the bad. I mean, one simple solution is to only allow certified coins. But that would eliminate a lot of legitimate material (and 80% of my sales).
@Torey said:
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How long would it take you to review a million listings? They could, but it is not simple nor likely to be effective. It's not that easy to authenticate from photos.
They dont need to review a million listings, only the ones that get reported .
The person I replied to suggested they review all listings before they go live.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
@jmlanzaf - profiting off the sale of illegal items is wrong.
eBay is serving as a broker - receiving a commission to link buyers and sellers.
What if this was a dealer and the excuse was just, “ Well these counterfeit coins are just a consignment, I never had legal possession of them and am only facilitating”. Ridiculous.
I think you’d be singing a different tune if this was illegal drugs, weapons, or some other even more highly objectionable goods or services.
Not really. I'm an anarchist at heart. Sell all the drugs you want.
No one is saying it's "right" but that's different than my complaints:
Ebay is not the "seller". I could live with "broker ".
Singling out ebay ignores everyone else who "isn't doing enough".
It's not a simple as people make it sound.
I’m not going to debate anarchy as that will devolve into politics and I don’t want to debate politics.
But a scourge of counterfeit coins is bad for the hobby. We need to find solutions to stem the tide.
I agree is eBay is not the seller - eBay does not have legal or physical possession of the goods.
Sellers and manufacturers should be held to account too.
I agree that it’s not simple and fees would likely go up if any additional solutions were implemented.
I don’t like the “whataboutism” argument - pointing to the legal and moral failings of others doesn’t excuse your own. Though it may or may not get you out of a speeding ticket
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
I completely disagree.
You're making a commitment to purchase or honor your winning bid with eBay. You're being invoiced by eBay. You're paying eBay. eBay is earning fees. You have a problem, you contact eBay. This is eBay's responsibility to ensure they are not selling fake U.S. currency.
And to be clear - the U.S. law:
>
18 U.S.C. § 471 makes it a federal crime to falsely make, alter, or counterfeit any security or obligation that belongs to the United States of America. The obligations and securities covered under the federal statute include currency, treasury notes, reserve notes and bonds.
It should be noted there are several statutes that address the creating, distributing, or using counterfeit currency. These laws make it a crime to:
Hold, pass, publish, sell, or attempt, any counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud.
Make, forge, or pass counterfeit foreign currency with the intent to defraud.
Buy, transfer, receive, or deliver counterfeit currency with intent that it be passed off as a genuine currency.
Possess imprints, digital images, or impressions made to create counterfeit money, or to sell these items with intent to defraud.
Ian
Now you're conflating ebay with the actual counterfeiter?
So, I assume you also hold Vusa and Mastercard liable. You pay them. They take a fee. If you have a problem, you have to deal with them....
@jmlanzaf - profiting off the sale of illegal items is wrong.
eBay is serving as a broker - receiving a commission to link buyers and sellers.
What if this was a dealer and the excuse was just, “ Well these counterfeit coins are just a consignment, I never had legal possession of them and am only facilitating”. Ridiculous.
I think you’d be singing a different tune if this was illegal drugs, weapons, or some other even more highly objectionable goods or services.
Not really. I'm an anarchist at heart. Sell all the drugs you want.
No one is saying it's "right" but that's different than my complaints:
Ebay is not the "seller". I could live with "broker ".
Singling out ebay ignores everyone else who "isn't doing enough".
It's not a simple as people make it sound.
I’m not going to debate anarchy as that will devolve into politics and I don’t want to debate politics.
But a scourge of counterfeit coins is bad for the hobby. We need to find solutions to stem the tide.
I agree is eBay is not the seller - eBay does not have legal or physical possession of the goods.
Sellers and manufacturers should be held to account too.
I agree that it’s not simple and fees would likely go up if any additional solutions were implemented.
I don’t like the “whataboutism” argument - pointing to the legal and moral failings of others doesn’t excuse your own. Though it may or may not get you out of a speeding ticket
I think I can agree with everything you said with one note: I'm not pointing to the failings of others, I'm complaining that people are choosing to ignore the others to single out ebay.
Counterfeits aside, at least I'm relatively certain that eBay proper (the broker/auction house entity) isn't bidding on then directly selling their own listings.
Whether you draw the line at illegal or immoral, there is no perfect platform... only the ones we choose.
The elephant in the (Bay) room is the standard reporting system; I just got a warning I may have my reporting rights suspended for "a pattern of unfounded reports"...
I guarantee every report was warranted but found OK per their "customer service agent". Their AI actually got a couple right.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
@jmlanzaf said:
I find it a little inaccurate to call eBay the "seller".
Maybe you should include FB, IG, and Craigslist in your rant. And, of course, Alibaba.
eBay is profiting from the fakes. eBay collects the money.
Ian
But that doesn't make them the "seller" any more than the person who supplies the shipping boxes, sells advertising, does payment processing, etc is the"seller". They may all enable and profit from the transaction but they aren't the "seller".
As an ebay user, I don't like the fakes but I also want limits on how intrusive ebay is. There are obvious counterfeits and there are also coins that are not obviously real but might be. I would rather not have to convince ebay that every coin I sell is 100% authentic beyond any reasonable doubt.
@jmlanzaf, I like the way you have something to say in just about every discussion that I'm interested enough to read. It makes me think outside my own opinions so please keep up the entertainment factor you provide for me and possibly other members.
@jmlanzaf said:
3. It's not a simple as people make it sound.
How long would it take you to review a million listings? They could, but it is not simple nor likely to be effective. It's not that easy to authenticate from photos.
Have a good track record? Listings are approved immediately. Are people flagging your listings? Now your new listings need to be approved first. Would it take care of every scenario? No, but at least it would cut back on a good portion...
Or the nearly no-expense route- User Mods who are browsing 24/7 anyway.
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
So ebay does not have any customers? Not the sellers or buyers.
Whatever happened to wanting a company to exist with the least amount of complaints.
The sellers are customers. They buy a service, not a product.
Comments
I really dont understand your propensity to defend ebay with these false equivalencies. In response to your comment, Ive never made a payment to visa or mastercard. They are just merchant services that get a small fee. When i have to pay of my credit card bill, I pay the bank. If i dispute a charge, Im not disputing it with Visa, I dispute it with the bank.
Regardless, its abundantly clear that Ebay couldnt be bothered to implement any type of effective system to prevent the sale of counterfeits. They have yet to even walk back that POS AI evaluation that rejects nearly every valid report about a counterfeit. In what world is it ok that some counterfeits have to be reported DOZENS of times to pull that listing, only to watch the seller relist the same exact item moments later? They have an army of volunteers who take the time to report fraudulent listings, do you think its really that difficult to tweak the software in a way that utilizes that free information?
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Also note that GC handles ALL items. Ebay handles zero items. Authentication at a distance is not simple.
When enough Attorney's General of the various states care. Which means it has to bubble to the top of their lists, past all the other crime.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Because eBay is NOT the seller. They are the marketplace. It is not a false equivalency, it is rather direct. As a seller, eBay provides me a marketplace for some items and Visa/MC/PayPal provide me payment processing and there are other "enablers" involved. ALL of the enablers make money and none of them directly handle the items. It is not easy for any of them to completely stop the fraudulently activity because they provide services to the actual sellers.
As for reports, I had a legitimate coin pulled because of an erroneous report that it was not real. I do NOT want eBay to pull items based on a single report from and random person. We've had it happen here where someone questions a listing on ebay or some other site only to be assured that it is, in fact, a real coin.
I don't like the fakes. But I also don't want the site destroyed by over moderation. And I also recognize the challenge of trying to assess coins without holding them.
It also bothers me that eBay gets singled out when there are numerous other marketplaces with similar issues. Yes, eBay is King. But why isn't Ian equally outraged that Craigslist, FB, IG, HiBid, Proxibid etc are also "enabling" the sale of fakes?
While it doesn't auction items, you can add that little company, Amazon to the list.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live.
Take necessary actions to prosecute repeat scammers.
Or if they are not willing to pony up any dough, they could add trusted moderators to pull listings.
How much do you think that "numistmatic team" would cost? And what about other hobbies where
there is dishonesty? Does eBay hire more teams to combat those problems and issues? And, if all this is done- who
pays for this? Higher fees for the buyers (and sellers)?
Got to think this through.
For a genuine fix: They do need to streamline their reporting as of now good coin auctions are being pulled (as stated above) and bad coin auctions are getting through. Get rid of the AI- that experiment didn't work- and go back to basics.
And the idea of banning sellers who repeat their offenses is a solid one.
peacockcoins
This is no different than FB….that doesn’t even have a phone number to call and talk to anyone when there’s a problem with the platform. How many posts have I seen of the ‘your friend may have died in this accident’ and when I report it as a scam I get the same AI generated reply that they find no problem with it. And this is why AI is not good for so many things. It can’t see the problems we do. Ian is right….. But with so many listings eBay can’t afford to police every auction…although maybe they could have a numismatist on retainer that could check and verify listings every now and then. Even though I purchased my last two vehicles on eBay, it’s kinda hard to make a counterfeit car. 😉
They must hire top professionals to hold the frauds accountable. Even in the natural world when unwanted animals like rats multiply their predators such as snakes, raptors, etc. multiply.
Having a legitimate coin pulled becuase of single report is not good, but that sounds like a one off and doesnt happen nearly as much as the opposite scenario where a coin is reported 30 times and the listings still standing. Obviously, both extremes are bad, but it cant possibly be that difficult to code the software to take action if a listing gets more than 3 reports or something like that. Or maybe implement some type of credit system where random accounts making a report isnt weighted as high as a long standing account that often correctly reports items that eventually get taken down. I just feel like its not a difficult problem to solve, or at least improve, with 2024 technology.
Craiglist, FB, and IG are essentially forums, and dont directly profit from coin sales. Hibid and Proxibid yes, they should also have accountability, but i feel like the volume there pales in comparison to the bay.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
So out of the billions in revenue, none should be allocated for training or hiring of a competent team?
"So out of the billions in revenue, none should be allocated for training or hiring of a competent team?"
I see what you did there.
Jump to a conclusion no one is stating or supporting.
What part of my response to you indicates eBay should spend nothing to combat fraud/counterfeits?
Your proposal is simply not reasonable.
peacockcoins
The only way they hire a competent team is if it will result in profits which exceed that cost. eBay doesn't really care about making an actual effort to stop this from happening because eBay doesn't really care about coin collecting. Doing so would ultimately hurt their bottom line or force increased fees.
I fail to see why paying for training is unreasonable. It's not that hard to identify the blatant fakes and pull them. You stated "Who pays for this"
My answer, Ebay should.
"My answer, Ebay should."
That means the buyers and sellers will pay additional fees.
You also stated above:
"So many solutions to this problem.
They could hire a numismatic team to review and approve listings before they go live."
It is that alone I find to be unreasonable.
peacockcoins
Ebay paid $59M in fines last January for selling equipment that can manufacture illegal drugs. Of course, this is more serious than fake coins, but eBay will react to whatever the FTC and DOJ want to enforce. Something needs to be done.
Scumnuker foiled a lot of fakes on eBay around 2005.
I think you are remembering it better than me. I said it was “the posse” earlier in this thread, but now I think “the posse” was a different anonymous group that was trying to get rid of coin doctors and that it was Scumnuker that used to put in nuclear bids on counterfeits to protect newbies from buying them and to harass counterfeit sellers and eBay. But there were others that joined in and helped Scumnuker. I think all the unwanted attention it caused to the sellers of counterfeit coins did make eBay take action because they weren’t getting their pay for all the unpaid auctions.
Mr_Spud
I guess we simply disagree and that is ok. They have 11,000+ employees....
Trained moderators in their respective categories would substantially reduce the amount of calls/inquiries that they have to review. The cost is not unreasonable and could actually reduce their employee count if done right- in my opinion.
Thanks for discussing this in a civilized manner.
I do appreciate your thoughts and opinion.
peacockcoins
What's fun about that?😢
😜😂
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
@jmlanzaf - profiting off the sale of illegal items is wrong.
eBay is serving as a broker - receiving a commission to link buyers and sellers.
What if this was a dealer and the excuse was just, “ Well these counterfeit coins are just a consignment, I never had legal possession of them and am only facilitating”. Ridiculous.
I think you’d be singing a different tune if this was illegal drugs, weapons, or some other even more highly objectionable goods or services.
VISA and Mastercard aren’t playing host to the transactions - they aren’t helping sellers find buyers.
And banks routinely get in plenty of legal trouble for customer transactions involving illegal goods even though they often aren’t even aware of them.
Those with standing should file complaints with their state legal oversight entities; AG, depts. of consumer affairs. I'd think that stock holders would have standing; also buyers ripped off by bogus products, maybe even honest sellers affected by these frauds. If people wanted to be diligent boy scouts they could buy the fake products then after filing for returns and complaints with ebay, file with their states to explain how ebay is permitting clearly illegal business activity.
Bottom line - if you are 1) brokering or linking buyers and sellers, 2) profiting or attempting to profit off the transaction and 3) aware or should be aware that the goods are illegal, you are responsible.
eBay should be held to the same standard as any other auction or sale venue. The fact there are so many listings for counterfeit coins that persist even when reported is evidence to me that eBay is failing its legal and moral responsibilities.
Quite true. And they could all do more to prevent fraud. But there are limits and you could end up throwing out the good with the bad. I mean, one simple solution is to only allow certified coins. But that would eliminate a lot of legitimate material (and 80% of my sales).
How long would it take you to review a million listings? They could, but it is not simple nor likely to be effective. It's not that easy to authenticate from photos.
They dont need to review a million listings, only the ones that get reported
.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Not really. I'm an anarchist at heart. Sell all the drugs you want.
No one is saying it's "right" but that's different than my complaints:
Sometimes you just gotta flush the toilet
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
The person I replied to suggested they review all listings before they go live.
I’m not going to debate anarchy as that will devolve into politics and I don’t want to debate politics.
But a scourge of counterfeit coins is bad for the hobby. We need to find solutions to stem the tide.
I agree is eBay is not the seller - eBay does not have legal or physical possession of the goods.
Sellers and manufacturers should be held to account too.
I agree that it’s not simple and fees would likely go up if any additional solutions were implemented.
I don’t like the “whataboutism” argument - pointing to the legal and moral failings of others doesn’t excuse your own. Though it may or may not get you out of a speeding ticket
I think I can agree with everything you said with one note: I'm not pointing to the failings of others, I'm complaining that people are choosing to ignore the others to single out ebay.
Counterfeits aside, at least I'm relatively certain that eBay proper (the broker/auction house entity) isn't bidding on then directly selling their own listings.
Whether you draw the line at illegal or immoral, there is no perfect platform... only the ones we choose.
eBay can be an offal place. Chaos that no one looks through is a good place to pick, though.
The elephant in the (Bay) room is the standard reporting system; I just got a warning I may have my reporting rights suspended for "a pattern of unfounded reports"...
I guarantee every report was warranted but found OK per their "customer service agent". Their AI actually got a couple right.
What a joke................
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Had to look that one up
refuse or waste material.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Shall we call Ebay an "ACCOMPLICE" or "ENABLER?"
Technically, "marketplace".
I really doubt that the US government would take action when there are no seizable assets to recover.
Ebay never has possession of the items, and as the saying goes "Possession is 9/10ths of the law".
Coin Photographer.
@jmlanzaf, I like the way you have something to say in just about every discussion that I'm interested enough to read. It makes me think outside my own opinions so please keep up the entertainment factor you provide for me and possibly other members.
Have a good track record? Listings are approved immediately. Are people flagging your listings? Now your new listings need to be approved first. Would it take care of every scenario? No, but at least it would cut back on a good portion...
Or the nearly no-expense route- User Mods who are browsing 24/7 anyway.
So ebay does not have any customers? Not the sellers or buyers.
Whatever happened to wanting a company to exist with the least amount of complaints.
The sellers are customers. They buy a service, not a product.
….if we could find a way to get eBay to accept funny money in payment for phony products….😄
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...