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Error experts: Can you explain this?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 18, 2024 11:06AM in U.S. Coin Forum

How did Jefferson end up with two mouths?


Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭

    Now that is one cool error

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The lamination peeled off, and it was glued back onto the coin off center?

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Struck, delaminated, lamination set back down in a different spot.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lamination manifested and separated at the time of the strike creating significant shift and separation through the portrait and TRUST-

    Even my creative numismatic writing has its limitations in reality...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 1:00PM

    The metal stretched under stress during strike

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:
    The lamination peeled off, and it was glued back onto the coin off center?

    But how would that explain two mouths?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    like IkesT said - the yellow outlined area moved back attached at bottom - the green may be another area or helping keep in place

  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 2:30PM

    @MrEureka said:

    @1madman said:
    The lamination peeled off, and it was glued back onto the coin off center?

    But how would that explain two mouths?

    The lamination has shifted from when the coin was struck.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,234 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's lifted up a bit too, adds to the effect. Like a mini partial clamshell lamination or something.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Neat looking error..........

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • jt88jt88 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice error coin. I like it. Thanks for posting it.

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thin lamination error that shifted

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @1madman said:
    The lamination peeled off, and it was glued back onto the coin off center?

    But how would that explain two mouths?

    The secondary mouth is going to be blurry because of the lamination. Look at the R in TRUST.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,532 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 5:32PM

    @MrEureka said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    The whole lamination stretches under stress. Then shifts back. It didn't move, per se, it stretches. Consider elastic tied to a door knob. Stretch it out. Draw on it. Then release. The far end moves the most, the fixed end moves the least.

    The whole head of Jefferson is smaller on the lamination than it would be on the coin.

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The upper edge did not remain in place. It shifted to the northeast, just like the lower edge. No need for a "shrunken head" explanation, either. ;)

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    The whole lamination stretches under stress. Then shifts back. It didn't move, per se, it stretches. Consider elastic tied to a door knob. Stretch it out. Draw on it. Then release. The far end moves the most, the fixed end moves the least.

    The whole head of Jefferson is smaller on the lamination than it would be on the coin.

    That's a great explanation, if correct. I would not have thought that metal that expanded in one direction under stress would contract in the other direction when the pressure subsided. I do, however, understand that if that's the way metal behaves under stress, then the effect would be more pronounced on a thinner object, like a lamination.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    That piece was attached to the coin when it was struck. Either it pulled away when the die raised (I don't believe it) or it was moved by something after it left the dies. IMO, it was moved after it entered circulation. The ONLY thing special about that coin to me is the size of the delamination and all the smaller laminations still attached to the coin's surface. It is a keeper!

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it may not have bent out of place at the mint.

    and there is the "contract in the other direction." it still could have happened at the mint in maybe the bag.

    lots of possibilities

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SullivanNumismatics

    @FredWeinberg

    @Byers

    I hate to beg, but I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight unless we figure this out!

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    @SullivanNumismatics

    @FredWeinberg

    @Byers

    I hate to beg, but I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight unless we figure this out!

    Those were the first names I thought of as well. Might as well call in the big guns. Then we can both die happy men! 🤣 😉

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,532 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    The upper edge is not still in place, The whole piece is shifted upwards. Look at the disconnect on the forehead.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy
    The shadow mouth you see -it’s just part of the original strike of the coin,
    with the flap lifted and shifted upward.
    Noticed that Jeff’s forehead is also ‘shifted’ and it looks like to partial forehead areas.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    the upper edge has moved from the proper place and the lower right is the place that's still attached

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:

    @MrEureka said:

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    the upper edge has moved from the proper place and the lower right is the place that's still attached

    That is it. It took me a little time to get all these arrow drawn. It is attached in the lower right where all the arrows start. I then show how rotating about this point about the same amount would place certain features back in the correct spot on the coin. Also on the adjacent good coin I show where the forehead has rotated to and why the lamination may appear cracked at this spot as it is on the raised head now. Also maybe why the lamination is raised above the slab prong. The other potential lamination (orange arrow) appears to be a separate lamination as it still aligns with the hair detail.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 8:39PM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy

    The lamination doesn't seem lifted enough for that to be right. I think there's more going on than that. It looks to me like the coin literally shattered on impact. I wonder if the diameter is normal??? Edited to say: Based on the reverse, the diameter does appear to be normal, so I'm still not there yet.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 8:58PM

    I'm trying to imagine the striking process in ultra-slow motion. And imagining the lamination detaching (or partially detaching) on impact, and re-attaching micro-seconds later as the dies complete the strike.

    Edited to add that as the detached lamination was forced into the already mostly struck coin, the surrounding metal could have been forced outwards towards the periphery of the coin.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    Even the label is in error!

    A doubled error.

    After the error pros come to consensus on the coin - I'd like to know what happened to NGC's spell checker to let "laminaiton" get onto the label!

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy

    The lamination doesn't seem lifted enough for that to be right. I think there's more going on than that. It looks to me like the coin literally shattered on impact. I wonder if the diameter is normal??? Edited to say: Based on the reverse, the diameter does appear to be normal, so I'm still not there yet.

    This is where the lamination was located (very roughly, but you get the picture) when the dies impacted the coin:

    The lamination has rotated slightly and is now in this position. The underlying metal reflects the impression from the strike through the laminated metal in the original position:

    These are other laminations that are unconnected to the large one:

    This seems like the expected appearance for a lamination that has been moved slightly without being fully detached. Am I missing something?

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy

    The lamination doesn't seem lifted enough for that to be right. I think there's more going on than that. It looks to me like the coin literally shattered on impact. I wonder if the diameter is normal??? Edited to say: Based on the reverse, the diameter does appear to be normal, so I'm still not there yet.

    This is where the lamination was located (very roughly, but you get the picture) when the dies impacted the coin:

    The lamination has rotated slightly and is now in this position. The underlying metal reflects the impression from the strike through the laminated metal in the original position:

    These are other laminations that are unconnected to the large one:

    This seems like the expected appearance for a lamination that has been moved slightly without being fully detached. Am I missing something?

    The question, I think, is precisely when and how the lamination moved.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,532 ✭✭✭✭✭

    See my comment about the forehead.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    See my comment about the forehead.

    @CaptHenway said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    The upper edge is not still in place, The whole piece is shifted upwards. Look at the disconnect on the forehead.

    .
    Yes but I think this appears to be a rotation. Rexford is indicating a similar thing.
    In the below close up the blue arrows point to the right side of the lamination and a crack in the lamination on the left. The orange arrow would appear to be where a 'finger' of the lamination is still connected.

    In the bottom picture from my prior post, if you rotate about this potential connected 'finger' it appears that the features will go closely back to the original strike placement. That is the angle between the green arrows (point on collar), blue arrows (upper lip) and red arrows (foot of 'R') are about the same (as close as I could rotate them).

    Then on the good nickel (on the right side) this same approximate angle of rotation from about the same point of the blue arrows indicates about where the lower forward point on the forehead (of the lamination) would rotate to on the nickel and creating the disconnect on the forehead.
    .

    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    See my comment about the forehead.

    @CaptHenway said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that answered to your satisfaction?

    I'm not there yet. I don't understand how the the lower edge of the lamination could have shifted post strike when the upper edge of the lamination remained firmly in place.

    The upper edge is not still in place, The whole piece is shifted upwards. Look at the disconnect on the forehead.

    .
    Yes but I think this appears to be a rotation. Rexford is indicating a similar thing.
    In the below close up the blue arrows point to the right side of the lamination and a crack in the lamination on the left. The orange arrow would appear to be where a 'finger' of the lamination is still connected.

    In the bottom picture from my prior post, if you rotate about this potential connected 'finger' it appears that the features will go closely back to the original strike placement. That is the angle between the green arrows (point on collar), blue arrows (upper lip) and red arrows (foot of 'R') are about the same (as close as I could rotate them).

    Then on the good nickel (on the right side) this same approximate angle of rotation from about the same point of the blue arrows indicates about where the lower forward point on the forehead (of the lamination) would rotate to on the nickel and creating the disconnect on the forehead.
    .

    .

    I think if you simply overlay the images, you'll see the "shrunken head" where the lamination stretched under stress and then returned.

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think you are trying to think too hard on this one.

    There is no Shrunken Head syndrome.

    As I said before way up there in this thread,

    It is a thin lamination that moved slightly. You want to know how moved, we don't know how, but we know it moved.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The slab pic is a bit of an optical illusion. I think in hand it would be clearer that the lamination detached and shifted after strike.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ctf_error_coins said:
    I think you are trying to think too hard on this one.

    There is no Shrunken Head syndrome.

    As I said before way up there in this thread,

    It is a thin lamination that moved slightly. You want to know how moved, we don't know how, but we know it moved.

    I agree. Lol. I'm not the one that invoked the shrunken head, but you can see the slight size difference from the pull back.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,532 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To summarize:
    A large but thin section of the surface of the coin delaminated from the coin but remained attached to it via two small bits of metal at one end, near the 5 o'clock position of the obverse.
    The piece got pushed sideways towards the 12 o'clock position of the coin, pivoting from where the two small bits of metal connected it to the coin.
    This pivoting exposed the rough interior of the coin to the southwest of the piece of metal, which naturally included parts of the design also seen on the piece of metal because of the normal flow of metal in a planchet during a strike.
    The pivoting caused the upper edge of the piece of metal to move up and over part of the normal surface of the coin, and also resulted in a disconnect where Jefferson's forehead now takes a jog.
    No metal was stretched, shrunk, frappe-ed, folded, spindled or`mutilated. It just separated from the main part of the coin and then got pushed sideways a bit.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2024 1:31PM

    @MrEureka said:

    @Rexford said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy

    The lamination doesn't seem lifted enough for that to be right. I think there's more going on than that. It looks to me like the coin literally shattered on impact. I wonder if the diameter is normal??? Edited to say: Based on the reverse, the diameter does appear to be normal, so I'm still not there yet.

    This is where the lamination was located (very roughly, but you get the picture) when the dies impacted the coin:

    The lamination has rotated slightly and is now in this position. The underlying metal reflects the impression from the strike through the laminated metal in the original position:

    These are other laminations that are unconnected to the large one:

    This seems like the expected appearance for a lamination that has been moved slightly without being fully detached. Am I missing something?

    The question, I think, is precisely when and how the lamination moved.

    No telling. None of us were around when it moved. On many coins with laminations there is evidence that the piece was pried up. That's the first thing I looked for but could not find on this one. One thing I can say for sure, the piece moved after the coin entered circulation. I'll let you think about that statement and figure out why I'm sure.

    One more thing. When a coin is struck, the deformation that makes the raised design continues unseen below the coin's surface. If we were to peel away the surface (as on this coin, we would see the design below its surface as on this coin. In fact, when kids toss a Lincoln cent into a coke and let the acid etch it, we are left with a thin piece of copper that still has a head shape visible.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @Rexford said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The lifted piece, if pressed flat, would cover the “shadow“ mouth that you see Andy

    The lamination doesn't seem lifted enough for that to be right. I think there's more going on than that. It looks to me like the coin literally shattered on impact. I wonder if the diameter is normal??? Edited to say: Based on the reverse, the diameter does appear to be normal, so I'm still not there yet.

    This is where the lamination was located (very roughly, but you get the picture) when the dies impacted the coin:

    The lamination has rotated slightly and is now in this position. The underlying metal reflects the impression from the strike through the laminated metal in the original position:

    These are other laminations that are unconnected to the large one:

    This seems like the expected appearance for a lamination that has been moved slightly without being fully detached. Am I missing something?

    The question, I think, is precisely when and how the lamination moved.

    No telling. None of us were around when it moved. On many coins with laminations there is evidence that the piece was pried up. That's the first thing I looked for but could not find on this one. One thing I can say for sure, the piece moved after the coin entered circulation. I'll let you think about that statement and figure out why I'm sure.

    One more thing. When a coin is struck, the deformation that makes the raised design continues unseen below the coin's surface. If we were to peel away the surface (as on this coin, we would see the design below its surface as on this coin. In fact, when kids toss a Lincoln cent into a coke and let the acid etch it, we are left with a thin piece of copper that still has a head shape visible.

    The acid etching is less about the hidden head below the surface and more about the head on top being etched at an even rate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2024 1:49PM

    .

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    .

    So what's your point? 🧐

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    .

    So what's your point? 🧐

    That's my point right there.

  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JBK said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    .

    So what's your point? 🧐

    That's my point right there.

    I think his point is that by trying to make things simple to understand, my example using a cent and coke was not a very good one. ;)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JBK said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    .

    So what's your point? 🧐

    That's my point right there.

    I think his point is that by trying to make things simple to understand, my example using a cent and coke was not a very good one. ;)

    Nah. It has nothing to do with you. You're good.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    One more thing. When a coin is struck, the deformation that makes the raised design continues unseen below the coin's > surface. If we were to peel away the surface (as on this coin, we would see the design below its surface as on this coin.

    >
    .
    So perhaps a good example would be the detached clad layers. While I don't find the coin with the detached (after striking) clad layer, there are some examples of the detached clad layer which show the fading strike on the 'bottom' side. The coin if found should have the similar fading but raised (or normal) strike.

    A couple of threads:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1075260/one-thin-dime-kinda

    In this one it is the second coin.
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/913368/major-error-eye-candy-9-clad-layer-split-before-strike

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1034455/how-would-this-error-have-been-minted

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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