@Rexford said:
Regardless of the intentions or history of the OP, the descriptives in the listing are misleading at best.
I can't dispute that...but it's kind of like (insert evil dictator) telling you to eat your vegetables. I can't dispute that it's important to eat vegetables but for some reason it's hard to focus on that message coming from (insert evil dictator).
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I looked up the pop report myself and the MS68 is still there with a pic of the Trueview as the first pic as well. The pitch from the seller is not a good look and appears desperate.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
You have some valid points that seem to be lost in the noise.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
You have some valid points that seem to be lost in the noise.
To be fair, the OP also made those same points but their delivery was somewhat ill-advised.
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
To be fair, the inventory control system might automatically update to "hold" while changing the description would be more onerous. [Not that it shouldn't be done. ]
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
Fellas, like it or not, this business has always been filled with hucksters, exaggerators, embellishers, and “extreme” marketers. It’s been this way for the ~30 years I’ve been dipping my toe. You just GOTTA KNOW that!
Ethics is relative and in this particular game the bar is low. Not saying it’s okay. Not at all. But it is the way it is. Due diligence is owed by the buyer to protect his/herself. We don’t live in happy magic funtime land where everything is roses and nothing is ever sketchy. Believe or expect otherwise at your own peril.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
Hence my question in the previous post about whether anyone knew if the listing was accurate at the time it was originally posted. I would draw a considerable distinction between posting something that was demonstrably false in the first place, vs it was correct at the time it was made, and has not been updated.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
“This is the finest known example”
or
“…might be the only thing that keeps it from a MS68 grade, which, I believe, would be a $100,000 coin. Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”.
or
“Recently a MS67 example sold for $10,000 on eBay. That is probably cheap for the grade”
I ask because of this auction result:
What am I missing in being surprised that a listing of this type seems to be getting a free pass? I’d really like to know, as that might make me feel a lot better about it.
Mark , I share your sentiment but I was trying not to make waves. I feel like I’m the bartender in this scene from one of my favorite movies-
“This happens every week, but this guys actually pretty good.”
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
Hence my question in the previous post about whether anyone knew if the listing was accurate at the time it was originally posted. I would draw a considerable distinction between posting something that was demonstrably false in the first place, vs it was correct at the time it was made, and has not been updated.
And it's a good question that remains unanswered for now. With that said, the heritage listing for the ms68 is coming up on 6 months old, and you could "color me shocked" if the OP of this thread is the only one who made an attempt to notify Mr. Snow about it since then. The evidence, as it stands, doesn't look particularly good....
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
They don't have to answer, Mark. Like the childlike hoodlums they are, they sling mud and run and watch it fall from the walls. We provide their fun. Perhaps Rick was comparatively speaking that in his opinion his MS67+ was the finest known of the MS67+ graded coins. He pretty much states that it is better than the other graded MS67+ coins. After all any auction ad is someone's opinion and if you do not agree with it then don't bid on it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
They don't have to answer, Mark. Like the childlike hoodlums they are, they sling mud and run and watch it fall from the walls. We provide their fun. Perhaps Rick was comparatively speaking that in his opinion his MS67+ was the finest known of the MS67+ graded coins. He pretty much states that it is better than the other graded MS67+ coins. After all any auction ad is someone's opinion and if you do not agree with it then don't bid on it.
Jim
Jim, a couple things to clarify.
Who is "they"? The OP is the only one with numerous profiles that have continuously posted threads like this. The rest of us we're having an adult-like and civil discussion as best as I can tell.
I believe, and I may be wrong, that you might be misinterpreting Mark's position in this discussion. While he never made any assertions, if you read between the lines, Mark is the one who initially raised the question that led us here. I encourage you to read through again if you missed that.
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
They don't have to answer, Mark. Like the childlike hoodlums they are, they sling mud and run and watch it fall from the walls. We provide their fun. Perhaps Rick was comparatively speaking that in his opinion his MS67+ was the finest known of the MS67+ graded coins. He pretty much states that it is better than the other graded MS67+ coins. After all any auction ad is someone's opinion and if you do not agree with it then don't bid on it.
Jim
@jedm said:
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
They don't have to answer, Mark. Like the childlike hoodlums they are, they sling mud and run and watch it fall from the walls. We provide their fun. Perhaps Rick was comparatively speaking that in his opinion his MS67+ was the finest known of the MS67+ graded coins. He pretty much states that it is better than the other graded MS67+ coins. After all any auction ad is someone's opinion and if you do not agree with it then don't bid on it.
Jim
Jim, among other things, the listing says “ Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”. Thats not an opinion and it’s factually incorrect. As, has already been posted, there’s an MS68 example which was auctioned back in January.
If almost anyone other than the OP had started a thread about the listing and/or the seller was an unknown, I doubt that you and several others who’ve replied, would be nearly as forgiving.
I’m going to message Rick Snow, in case he somehow isn’t aware of this thread or that his listing includes factually incorrect PCGS population data.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I just sent a message to Rick Snow through eBay. eBay messaging wouldn’t allow me to include a link to this thread, though I’ve been able to link threads in the past. So I wrote:
“Rick, in case you’re somehow not aware of the thread on the PCGS forum or that (contrary to what your listing states) there’s a higher graded example, please see the thread there titled “Great ethics”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Rick is an expert on Indian Cents. In fact he literally wrote the book on that series. Eagle Eye stickers carry much weight. Dealer of the Year.
Perhaps Mr. Snow should stay in his lane and leave Lincoln Cents to Charmy.
Mr. Snow would either appear to not be up to date on the research of this particular coin... or is aware of the conflicting information in the listing and hasn't been in any hurry to correct it. As DD eluded, neither of those looks particularly good for the ANA dealer of the year regardless of how we got here.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Fellas, like it or not, this business has always been filled with hucksters, exaggerators, embellishers, and “extreme” marketers. It’s been this way for the ~30 years I’ve been dipping my toe. You just GOTTA KNOW that!
Ethics is relative and in this particular game the bar is low. Not saying it’s okay. Not at all. But it is the way it is. Due diligence is owed by the buyer to protect his/herself. We don’t live in happy magic funtime land where everything is roses and nothing is ever sketchy. Believe or expect otherwise at your own peril.
And unless we are ok living in that dark world, the first step is to hold all dealers accountable, from the brand new seller on eBay to the most knowledgeable and respected members of the hobby.
@fathom said:
How dare someone call out an award winning ANA dealer.
Where do we think we are....America?
The OP could say "Hello" and they would be banned. This is their 5th or 6th alt which is clearly against forum rules.
And, in America, you can't say anything you want. Pointing out the inaccuracies are rather different than calling out the individual's person.
Calling out the listing is what I am referencing.
There are Q's coming from all sides on this one not just the OP.
When I have a listing that is flawed I will change it and I will keep track and monitor my expensive listings. You can drink the koolaid and toe the line all you want this is....America.
I’m with Mark on this one - not a great look for Rick Snow although he is hardly the first to go fishing for buyers.
One thing to point out is the 68 is not stickered. If he said there are no finer examples that are CAC’d, it would be a lot more palatable.
Not sure how many of the 67+s are.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Caveat Emptor or in this case… do your own research always.
Omitting information is not uncommon in numismatic descriptions. Do your own research and file the knowledge of the misrepresentation away for future dealings.
FWIW, there are two different die states of this overdate, one more desirable than the other. I am too tired to look at the pictures, but perhaps that might be a factor in the prices.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, there are two different die states of this overdate, one more desirable than the other. I am too tired to look at the pictures, but perhaps that might be a factor in the prices.
Too tired or don't want to get involved........do they still make geritol?
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, there are two different die states of this overdate, one more desirable than the other. I am too tired to look at the pictures, but perhaps that might be a factor in the prices.
Too tired or don't want to get involved........do they still make geritol?
I have post-polio syndrome, and have been fighting it for 45 years. It is winning.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, there are two different die states of this overdate, one more desirable than the other. I am too tired to look at the pictures, but perhaps that might be a factor in the prices.
Too tired or don't want to get involved........do they still make geritol?
I have post-polio syndrome, and have been fighting it for 45 years. It is winning.
I meant no disrespect, I just would like and I'm sure others, to get your opinion
The eBay sale referenced as "recently" was in 2022. This description might simply be 18 months or so out of date as the 68 sold in January of this year.
Personally, there are simply larger problems in the world than an obsolete coin listing.
1 Don’t feed the trolls. You lower yourself to their level and they enjoy it.
2 My MS67+ is the finest known. I saw the MS68 at the FUN show auction and it was awful! It has a large tin pest spot on the reverse at 5:00. Another smaller one in the field at 11:00. Tin pest on steel cents is the kiss of death. Mine doesn’t have any tin pest. On of the other MS67+ has a large strike-through on the reverse at 6:00.
3 Why does listing a coin at what you feel the value it, unethical? What if the MS68 was a true MS68 CAC, etc. and it sold for $25K? Why would that absolve me in the eyes of the OP and magically make me highly ethical?
4 What if I put my MS67+ in an auction and it sold for $100,000? Would that make the auction house unethical?
5 The OP has some fixation on this variety and my listing of it. Why is that? Does he own one? Does he wish he owns one? Does he not think the importance of the variety was raised considerably when it was discovered to be not just a doubled die, but an overdate as well.
6 If the OP is angry that I am asking so much, why not make an offer. Not a $100 offer, as that would go against his so-called ethics rule, but a real offer. I bought this coin soon after it was discovered to be an overdate. I paid many multiples over the market of the FS-101. I think it is very important. I may be ahead of the market, but I feel my valuation is realistic. And even if it is not, who cares? Don’t buy it.
7 Thanks for all the publicity about this variety. As the only overdate in the series, it is a very important variety. Once, the only overdate in the Indian cent series was found and hyped and overpriced by James Ruddy. He was way ahead of the market, but eventually the market caught up to his expectations.
8 I appreciate all the friends on the boards who have supported me. I don’t post much anymore, and probably won’t in the future. I’ll be better for it, but sadly the boards will not.
Rick - Well stated. You have a right to sell any coin at any price. The buyer really determines the price. Lots of trolls on these boards, which is why my posting has gone down over the years.
“2 My MS67+ is the finest known. I saw the MS68 at the FUN show auction and it was awful! It has a large tin pest spot on the reverse at 5:00. Another smaller one in the field at 11:00. Tin pest on steel cents is the kiss of death. Mine doesn’t have any tin pest. On of the other MS67+ has a large strike-through on the reverse at 6:00”
Your 67+ might be nicer than the 68 but the 68 nevertheless has a higher grade and I think your description is inaccurate and misleading at best.
I've never heard of "tin pest" on a steel cent. Is there such a thing as "zinc pest"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@skier07 said:
“2 My MS67+ is the finest known. I saw the MS68 at the FUN show auction and it was awful! It has a large tin pest spot on the reverse at 5:00. Another smaller one in the field at 11:00. Tin pest on steel cents is the kiss of death. Mine doesn’t have any tin pest. On of the other MS67+ has a large strike-through on the reverse at 6:00”
Your 67+ might be nicer than the 68 but the 68 nevertheless has a higher grade and I think your description is inaccurate and misleading at best.
Agreed. It’s one thing to be of the opinion and claim that a 67+ example is better than one that’s graded 68. But it’s another, altogether, to state that none are graded higher than 67+.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’Only 6 examples are graded as MS67+, none higher.”
Rick and James: I am confused. How can this be “well stated” or accurate? This sentence speaks of 6 coins GRADED at the MS67+level with none higher. There is, in fact, an MS68 HIGHER GRADED example. Hence, I believe this sentence is 100% inaccurate. And, I certainly hope the PNG would not find this statement of fact to be accurate!
This has nothing to do with Rick’s asking price. Agreed- Rick can ask any amount he desires.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
‘’Only 6 examples are graded as MS67+, none higher.”
Rick and James: I am confused. How can this be “well stated” or accurate? This sentence speaks of 6 coins GRADED at the MS67+level with none higher. There is, in fact, an MS68 HIGHER GRADED example. Hence, I believe this sentence is 100% inaccurate. And, I certainly hope the PNG would not find this statement of fact to be accurate!
This has nothing to do with Rick’s asking price. Agreed- Rick can ask any amount he desires.
Wondercoin
Agreed. The response is a little disappointing as I think the inaccuracy is the result of failing to update the listing as the information changed. Doubling down on that oversight is probably in character but it doesn't benefit Mr. Snow.
Mr. Snow has admittedly been aware of the existence of the MS68 coin since at least January when he saw it in hand. He has since had no issue stating in his listing "Only 6 examples are graded as MS67+, none higher". He is entitled to his opinion as to which is the better coin, but selectively omitting to mention the higher graded example certainly raises a question of ethics.
Comments
Dude, you’re a day late and $17,500 short.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I can't dispute that...but it's kind of like (insert evil dictator) telling you to eat your vegetables. I can't dispute that it's important to eat vegetables but for some reason it's hard to focus on that message coming from (insert evil dictator).
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
“Bold face” , not bald face .
I'm with DD. While the listing is "overhyped" (?), there's little point in being involved in a thread like this.
I looked up the pop report myself and the MS68 is still there with a pic of the Trueview as the first pic as well. The pitch from the seller is not a good look and appears desperate.
You have some valid points that seem to be lost in the noise.
To be fair, the OP also made those same points but their delivery was somewhat ill-advised.
The only reason I can see for the current appearance of the ad is that it was originally created prior to January of 2024, and is now unknowingly misleading do to the event of the auction at Heritage.
I see a coin pictured on his website that was purchased last week marked as "on hold" yet the aforementioned Lincoln is still listed with this descriptor: "_Superb Gem Unc (15: 5,5,5). The newly discovered overdate! This is the finest known example." _
Almost six months have past since the auction appearance of the MS68 example which should be enough time to realize the mistake in a current listing.
In his opening post, the OP stated “He was made aware of the 68 example back when it was made as well as pointing out the falsities in his ad. Yet it remains.”
I followed up with the question “By what method was he made aware of the MS68 coin and how long ago?”. But if my question was answered, I didn’t see it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To be fair, the inventory control system might automatically update to "hold" while changing the description would be more onerous. [Not that it shouldn't be done. ]
Could this be a Mr. Monk discovery?
Is it any worse than the extreme hyperbole we see all the time in auction listings written by everyone's favorite owner of a neutron microscope?
Out of curiosity, does anyone know when the listing was written, and whether the listing was factually accurate at the time of the original posting?
IMO, Yes. Considering that he is a PNG member and recently named ANA Dealer of the Year, I would think there should be a higher level of accountability than your average schmuck on eBay.
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Fellas, like it or not, this business has always been filled with hucksters, exaggerators, embellishers, and “extreme” marketers. It’s been this way for the ~30 years I’ve been dipping my toe. You just GOTTA KNOW that!
Ethics is relative and in this particular game the bar is low. Not saying it’s okay. Not at all. But it is the way it is. Due diligence is owed by the buyer to protect his/herself. We don’t live in happy magic funtime land where everything is roses and nothing is ever sketchy. Believe or expect otherwise at your own peril.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I don’t really have an issue with the flowery language and the hyperbolic descriptors. Where I draw the line is verifiable falsehoods. I.E. “this is the finest known example”….etc
For the record, Laura is not PNG but I think that’s a matter of choice for her, she has her opinions. It doesn’t matter anyway, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole.
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Hence my question in the previous post about whether anyone knew if the listing was accurate at the time it was originally posted. I would draw a considerable distinction between posting something that was demonstrably false in the first place, vs it was correct at the time it was made, and has not been updated.
And it's a good question that remains unanswered for now. With that said, the heritage listing for the ms68 is coming up on 6 months old, and you could "color me shocked" if the OP of this thread is the only one who made an attempt to notify Mr. Snow about it since then. The evidence, as it stands, doesn't look particularly good....
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They don't have to answer, Mark. Like the childlike hoodlums they are, they sling mud and run and watch it fall from the walls. We provide their fun. Perhaps Rick was comparatively speaking that in his opinion his MS67+ was the finest known of the MS67+ graded coins. He pretty much states that it is better than the other graded MS67+ coins. After all any auction ad is someone's opinion and if you do not agree with it then don't bid on it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
$18750 on ebay. 😅
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Jim, a couple things to clarify.
Who is "they"? The OP is the only one with numerous profiles that have continuously posted threads like this. The rest of us we're having an adult-like and civil discussion as best as I can tell.
I believe, and I may be wrong, that you might be misinterpreting Mark's position in this discussion. While he never made any assertions, if you read between the lines, Mark is the one who initially raised the question that led us here. I encourage you to read through again if you missed that.
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Jim, among other things, the listing says “ Only 6 examples are graded MS67+, none higher”. Thats not an opinion and it’s factually incorrect. As, has already been posted, there’s an MS68 example which was auctioned back in January.
If almost anyone other than the OP had started a thread about the listing and/or the seller was an unknown, I doubt that you and several others who’ve replied, would be nearly as forgiving.
I’m going to message Rick Snow, in case he somehow isn’t aware of this thread or that his listing includes factually incorrect PCGS population data.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I just sent a message to Rick Snow through eBay. eBay messaging wouldn’t allow me to include a link to this thread, though I’ve been able to link threads in the past. So I wrote:
“Rick, in case you’re somehow not aware of the thread on the PCGS forum or that (contrary to what your listing states) there’s a higher graded example, please see the thread there titled “Great ethics”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Rick is an expert on Indian Cents. In fact he literally wrote the book on that series. Eagle Eye stickers carry much weight. Dealer of the Year.
Perhaps Mr. Snow should stay in his lane and leave Lincoln Cents to Charmy.
Mr. Snow would either appear to not be up to date on the research of this particular coin... or is aware of the conflicting information in the listing and hasn't been in any hurry to correct it. As DD eluded, neither of those looks particularly good for the ANA dealer of the year regardless of how we got here.
it’s all about the Chase, Pauly…
we need some music to go with our ethics (hyperbole)
I know PNG dealers who claim to pay the highest prices for gold and silver, too.
Another spin.
Sssh! What’s that sound?
Is it a whetstone? Do I hear an axe being ground?
Hmm. Looks like the mods had an axe, too. Teehee
And unless we are ok living in that dark world, the first step is to hold all dealers accountable, from the brand new seller on eBay to the most knowledgeable and respected members of the hobby.
.
Smitten with DBLCs.
shhhh... let's at least wait till he gets here before we show our pitchforks and light the bonfire
imho, this might be one of those situations where we shouldn't ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
Looks like your plane crashed yet again.
!
It’s a vicious circle.
It goes round and round and never stops.
That’s what makes it vicious.
And a circle.
peacockcoins
How dare someone call out an award winning ANA dealer.
Where do we think we are....America?
The OP could say "Hello" and they would be banned. This is their 5th or 6th alt which is clearly against forum rules.
And, in America, you can't say anything you want. Pointing out the inaccuracies are rather different than calling out the individual's person.
Calling out the listing is what I am referencing.
There are Q's coming from all sides on this one not just the OP.
When I have a listing that is flawed I will change it and I will keep track and monitor my expensive listings. You can drink the koolaid and toe the line all you want this is....America.
I’m with Mark on this one - not a great look for Rick Snow although he is hardly the first to go fishing for buyers.
One thing to point out is the 68 is not stickered. If he said there are no finer examples that are CAC’d, it would be a lot more palatable.
Not sure how many of the 67+s are.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Caveat Emptor or in this case… do your own research always.
Omitting information is not uncommon in numismatic descriptions. Do your own research and file the knowledge of the misrepresentation away for future dealings.
Latin American Collection
FWIW, there are two different die states of this overdate, one more desirable than the other. I am too tired to look at the pictures, but perhaps that might be a factor in the prices.
Too tired or don't want to get involved........do they still make geritol?
Mike
My Indians
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I have post-polio syndrome, and have been fighting it for 45 years. It is winning.
I meant no disrespect, I just would like and I'm sure others, to get your opinion
Mike
My Indians
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The eBay sale referenced as "recently" was in 2022. This description might simply be 18 months or so out of date as the 68 sold in January of this year.
Personally, there are simply larger problems in the world than an obsolete coin listing.
1 Don’t feed the trolls. You lower yourself to their level and they enjoy it.
2 My MS67+ is the finest known. I saw the MS68 at the FUN show auction and it was awful! It has a large tin pest spot on the reverse at 5:00. Another smaller one in the field at 11:00. Tin pest on steel cents is the kiss of death. Mine doesn’t have any tin pest. On of the other MS67+ has a large strike-through on the reverse at 6:00.
3 Why does listing a coin at what you feel the value it, unethical? What if the MS68 was a true MS68 CAC, etc. and it sold for $25K? Why would that absolve me in the eyes of the OP and magically make me highly ethical?
4 What if I put my MS67+ in an auction and it sold for $100,000? Would that make the auction house unethical?
5 The OP has some fixation on this variety and my listing of it. Why is that? Does he own one? Does he wish he owns one? Does he not think the importance of the variety was raised considerably when it was discovered to be not just a doubled die, but an overdate as well.
6 If the OP is angry that I am asking so much, why not make an offer. Not a $100 offer, as that would go against his so-called ethics rule, but a real offer. I bought this coin soon after it was discovered to be an overdate. I paid many multiples over the market of the FS-101. I think it is very important. I may be ahead of the market, but I feel my valuation is realistic. And even if it is not, who cares? Don’t buy it.
7 Thanks for all the publicity about this variety. As the only overdate in the series, it is a very important variety. Once, the only overdate in the Indian cent series was found and hyped and overpriced by James Ruddy. He was way ahead of the market, but eventually the market caught up to his expectations.
8 I appreciate all the friends on the boards who have supported me. I don’t post much anymore, and probably won’t in the future. I’ll be better for it, but sadly the boards will not.
Rick - Well stated. You have a right to sell any coin at any price. The buyer really determines the price. Lots of trolls on these boards, which is why my posting has gone down over the years.
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Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
“2 My MS67+ is the finest known. I saw the MS68 at the FUN show auction and it was awful! It has a large tin pest spot on the reverse at 5:00. Another smaller one in the field at 11:00. Tin pest on steel cents is the kiss of death. Mine doesn’t have any tin pest. On of the other MS67+ has a large strike-through on the reverse at 6:00”
Your 67+ might be nicer than the 68 but the 68 nevertheless has a higher grade and I think your description is inaccurate and misleading at best.
I've never heard of "tin pest" on a steel cent. Is there such a thing as "zinc pest"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Agreed. It’s one thing to be of the opinion and claim that a 67+ example is better than one that’s graded 68. But it’s another, altogether, to state that none are graded higher than 67+.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’Only 6 examples are graded as MS67+, none higher.”
Rick and James: I am confused. How can this be “well stated” or accurate? This sentence speaks of 6 coins GRADED at the MS67+level with none higher. There is, in fact, an MS68 HIGHER GRADED example. Hence, I believe this sentence is 100% inaccurate. And, I certainly hope the PNG would not find this statement of fact to be accurate!
This has nothing to do with Rick’s asking price. Agreed- Rick can ask any amount he desires.
Wondercoin
Agreed. The response is a little disappointing as I think the inaccuracy is the result of failing to update the listing as the information changed. Doubling down on that oversight is probably in character but it doesn't benefit Mr. Snow.
Mr. Snow has admittedly been aware of the existence of the MS68 coin since at least January when he saw it in hand. He has since had no issue stating in his listing "Only 6 examples are graded as MS67+, none higher". He is entitled to his opinion as to which is the better coin, but selectively omitting to mention the higher graded example certainly raises a question of ethics.