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1826 113A 50C F12 undergraded IMO

Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 27, 2024 2:47PM in U.S. Coin Forum

This is an Overton 113A grade by PCGS at F12. I think it is undergraded and is really a VF25. What are you thoughts? It is not a price deal I just don't think they got this right and that irks me due to the expense.
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Capped50/Grades
https://images.pcgs.com/trueview/48947595_medium.jpg

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    KAJ1KAJ1 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭

    20 all day!

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    TonedeafTonedeaf Posts: 219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice looking coin! I like it at 20.

    Shiny things distract me.

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks hairlined to a small degree, so perhaps it was net graded. Ignoring the lines, I would go for a VF-20 like the others.

    CBHs in the lower grades are undergraded by every TPG. Just look on Ebay under F-15 and you'll see a lot of decent VFs and some XFs.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    Davidk7Davidk7 Posts: 236 ✭✭✭

    I agree with the grade, maybe an F15 at best.

    Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram

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    Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably 'market graded" because of the cleaning and retoning.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the reverse wing feathers hold it to the F12 grade and I would agree with it.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭

    F-15+. Just a tad too much wear for me to call this VF.

    Joe.

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    epcepc Posts: 162 ✭✭✭✭

    I own two CBHs, both in NGC F15 slabs. Yours is comparable to them, so I'm in at 15 at best.

    Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Too flat for a VF in my book. F-15, yeah, okay.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    Probably 'market graded" because of the cleaning and retoning.

    Is acetone a clean? This coin has been in my family for 100 years. Those are original surfaces. There is no retoning.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UncleJoe said:
    F-15+. Just a tad too much wear for me to call this VF.

    Joe.

    Check out this link. https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Capped50/Grades

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    Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,068 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s a 15, IMO. The feather detail on the reverse is too worn to be a VF. I say “too worn” but it’s just a few commercial uses too many from being a VF.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UncleJoe said:
    F-15+. Just a tad too much wear for me to call this VF.

    Joe.

    Check out this link. https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Capped50/Grades

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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS wants full, or nearly full dentils for VF. This coin has F12 rims with worn off dentils, which is partly from the die state. Central details look VF20 IMO. This is the way PCGS grades circulated bust coins, using remaining rim detail. For a buyer, you can get VF central detail for a F price. I have many in this PCGS grade range, mostly 1794-1807.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭

    @Clackamas1 said:
    @UncleJoe said:
    F-15+. Just a tad too much wear for me to call this VF.

    Joe.

    Check out this link. https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Capped50/Grades

    It is the overall look of the coin, not just cherry picked areas that may look like a higher grade. This coin, for me, has too much wear overall to be put in a VF grade. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it. :)

    Seriously, I would not purchase this coin at a VF grade.

    Joe.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2024 10:25AM

    Compare reverses. I feel it limits the grade. JMO this is photograde F15
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    @Clackamas1 said:

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    Probably 'market graded" because of the cleaning and retoning.

    Is acetone a clean? This coin has been in my family for 100 years. Those are original surfaces. There is no retoning.

    Cleaned 100 years ago ;)

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    Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @zrnumismatics said:

    @Clackamas1 said:

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    Probably 'market graded" because of the cleaning and retoning.

    Is acetone a clean? This coin has been in my family for 100 years. Those are original surfaces. There is no retoning.

    Cleaned 100 years ago ;)

    Light devices, dark fields, ia a common look for a cleaned and retoned coin. Was this one? Maybe not. I'm just saying based on the pic, it looks like it was.

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2024 11:39AM

    @jesbroken said:
    Compare reverses. I feel it limits the grade. JMO this is photograde F15
    Jim

    PCGS photograde is not entirely accurate in my opinion. The obverse of that coin you showed is the 1812/1 O-101 which is often seen with no chin line in higher VF grades to due to weak strike and design. Your pictured F-15 is graded just by the obverse in which they failed to distinguish strike weakness and wear. With that single reverse photo, that is clearly low to mid VF.

    Going up a single grade to VF-20, the 1818 O-108 photographed (below) has luster. Once again, clearly not a low VF with luster.

    I would not recommend anyone using Photograde as their source of education to grade this particular series.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll go f15, if you get a 20 more power to you

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That coin has seen a lot of commerce, activity and wear. VF coins often have more meat on their bones.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nysoto said:
    PCGS wants full, or nearly full dentils for VF. This coin has F12 rims with worn off dentils, which is partly from the die state. Central details look VF20 IMO. This is the way PCGS grades circulated bust coins, using remaining rim detail. For a buyer, you can get VF central detail for a F price. I have many in this PCGS grade range, mostly 1794-1807.

    .
    On the part about the 'full or nearly full dentils for VF' and as noted 'worn off dentils, which is partly from the die state', can this be clarified any?

    The reason I ask is I was thinking I had some without full dentils and graded above VF. In checking I found a couple but with varying degrees of missing dentils. However, they also have much less surface wear and therefore the higher grade.

    So that is why I am asking about the nearly full dentils and/or where/when it applies.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A coin could have enough die erosion that all dentils would be gone and could still be MS, as some 1830's CBH's in LDS.

    The point I made with the OP coin was that is does not have a chance at VF or even F15 because of the rim wear which is similar to the F12 photograde example. I think PCGS is strict about having full rims in circulated grades.

    This is a different type and a dime, but the reverse eagle is VF IMO, the obverse could be VF but the rim wear on both sides is mostly flat and into the lettering on the reverse, F15

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks. Yes I understand the rim wear. I just did not read it correctly in the other post. I was reading dentils and not rim wear (I see the F12 rim now).

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,026 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great insight @Nysoto . Thanks.
    I've always focused on the clasp, hair, feathers and shield and have occasionally been puzzled about an assigned greade.
    I need to pay a bit more attention to remaining rim detail.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

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