1810 Bust Half: Mint Mistake or NGC Mistake?

jacrispies

This 1810 O-105 is coming up in a Heritage auction, graded NGC VF-30. Reverse looks like to have a spooned edge!

Besides the large reverse "rim fin," everything looks to be good. Diameter appears to be normal, obverse looks undamaged, and no other damage is visible that would confirm that this is a mutilated coin. Bust halves were not struck with a collar, so this could not have been made during the striking of the coin.

Too strange that both the obverse is undamaged and NGC ignored it entirely (clearly not net graded). What do you think?

I think the only way to absolutely confirm any hypothesis is checking the edge lettering. Does anyone here work at Heritage and can take a closer look at this lot for us?

coinbuf

Calling @MFeld

Insider3

That's what it appears to be YET I've seen this when coins went through the edging machine funny. I've even seen a groove completely around the edge to many times to count. There is a slim chance that the edge has not been altered with just the image but the experience of NGC graders carries weight.

knovak1976

Gotta say, I’m amazed at the amount of knowledge that is shared on this forum about coin variations, attributes, grading, etc. I have learned so much in the last few months and it makes me examine my coins all that more closely! Cheers!

jmlanzaf

It can't be spooned. If you spooned it on only one side, the coin would no longer be round. So I'm with @Insider3

BillJones

My first thought would be minor rim damage that NGC didn’t think was bad enough to take the grade down.

I have also seen half dollars from this era that had rims like this were caused by the casting machine that lettered the edge. It looked like rim damage but was really to tops of the edge letters. The coin probably was not mounted in the machine exactly flat.

jacrispies

@BillJones said:
I have also seen half dollars from this era that had rims like this were caused by the casting machine that lettered the edge. It looked like rim damage but was really to tops of the edge letters. The coin probably was not mounted in the machine exactly flat.

Not the case here. There is no rim fin created when the edge lettering is placed off center, only small voids in the rim that people mistake for rim dings. Seen especially on the 1812/1 O-102, here is an example with the edge lettering showing on the edge around UNITED and 50 C.

jacrispies

@Insider3 said:
That's what it appears to be YET I've seen this when coins went through the edging machine funny. I've even seen a groove completely around the edge to many times to count. There is a slim chance that the edge has not been altered with just the image but the experience of NGC graders carries weight.

Not sure exactly what "groove" you are talking about. Can you post an example photo?

MFeld

Once it's available, I'll examine the coin and get a second opinion. Since the sale isn't until April 1'st (no fooling ) and the lots haven't been numbered yet, I probably wont be able to view the coin for at least a week. But once I've done so, I'll report back.

Cougar1978

I don’t like the dark area near the nose. Looks like some kind rust or brown erosion. So would pass on it anyway. And so would a major investor client who invests in Bust Material. It wb interesting c how it does at auction.

jacrispies

@MFeld said:
Once it's available, I'll examine the coin and get a second opinion. Since the sale isn't until April 1'st (no fooling ) and the lots haven't been numbered yet, I probably wont be able to view the coin for at least a week. But once I've done so, I'll report back.

Awesome! Thanks for being open to taking a look. I am excited to see what is is!

lilolme

Based off the replies, it might be a good time to post this diagram again. To get one oriented more quickly the coin is '12' and '13' is noted as the moving / sliding die being cranked. Then the coin moves along the noted stationary die '11' to the drop / finish hole '9'.

As jacrispies noted these are not collar coins so might be a little more variance in them when going through the caistling machine.

Insider3

@jacrispies said:

@Insider3 said:
That's what it appears to be YET I've seen this when coins went through the edging machine funny. I've even seen a groove completely around the edge to many times to count. There is a slim chance that the edge has not been altered with just the image but the experience of NGC graders carries weight.

Not sure exactly what "groove" you are talking about. Can you post an example photo?

Yikes! I just did a box of those coins the other day with two like that. I'll do it but I'm sure any collector can get one up here for you in a matter of minutes!

jesbroken

I saw a half once with the edge similar to that and edge lettering was right on the edge instead of in the center.
Jim

Insider3

I had one! and I'm posting another genuine edge on one of these coins as a bonus!!!

jacrispies

@Insider3 said:
I had one! and I'm posting another genuine edge on one of these coins as a bonus!!!

That line is interesting! I don't have any example of that myself on any of my marriages. Perhaps it remains from the bar die manufacturing process. Doesn't show anything else unusual that would solve the mystery, but an interesting side note nonetheless. Thanks for posting a photo.

MFeld

I was able to locate the coin, showed it to one of our cataloguers and asked for his assessment.
He believes that there are some reverse irregularities, possibly caused by edge lettering.
Areas of note are above RICA in AMERICA and at approximately 6:00-7:00.
There is also some post-strike rim chatter.
He was careful not to claim he knows something which he can’t be certain about. I appreciate and respect that.

jacrispies

This one will go down in mystery!

habaraca

@jacrispies said:
This one will go down in mystery!

I think you should buy her and crack her out to better study her........

jacrispies

@habaraca said:

@jacrispies said:
This one will go down in mystery!

I think you should buy her and crack her out to better study her........

Tempting for sure.....

kaz

Well I learned a few things today, thanks to M. Feld and other folks who posted!

lkenefic

Interesting thread! I'd have just attributed it to PMD but the edge lettering error sheds a new light on something that is clearly a processing issue. Thanks to all...

jacrispies

I am still 90% sure it is PMD and NGC missed it somehow. Just can't understand how this could happen at the mint. I suppose the coin could have passed through the Castaing machine after being struck. There is no other observable example the demonstrates that scenario.

Insider3

@jacrispies said:
I am still 90% sure it is PMD and NGC missed it somehow. Just can't understand how this could happen at the mint. I suppose the coin could have passed through the Castaing machine after being struck. There is no other observable example the demonstrates that scenario.

If you are a Bust Half Nut Club member or specialist, the fact that you have not seen this characteristic before carries a lot of weight. Otherwise... Anyway, there are some numismatists who could tell if you are correct in less than thirty seconds. I know a few.

lilolme

Deleted.

jacrispies

@lilolme Right, but none of those characteristics match the coin in question. But, the off center with complete edge lettering would be a perfect representation of what an unstruck edge would look like if the coin passed through the edge lettering machine post strike. Created is a smooth ridge made across the entire periphery, not a sharp fin as shown on the coin in question.

Calling @CaptHenway, do you think it is possible for this single-sided rim fin to be created anywhere in the mint process?

jacrispies

Also calling @BustDMs, who also studies errors, same question above. What do you think?

BustDMs

@jacrispies said:
@lilolme Right, but none of those characteristics match the coin in question. But, the off center with complete edge lettering would be a perfect representation of what an unstruck edge would look like if the coin passed through the edge lettering machine post strike. Created is a smooth ridge made across the entire periphery, not a sharp fin as shown on the coin in question.

Calling @CaptHenway, do you think it is possible for this single-sided rim fin to be created anywhere in the mint process?

@jacrispies said:
Also calling @BustDMs, who also studies errors, same question above. What do you think?

The article referenced above is mine from the JR Journal.

The coins were NOT passed throught the Castaing machine after striking. The silver would have been work hardened and the lettering would not have been impressed nearly as well as it is.

As I said in the article the edge lettering was applied BEFORE striking to change the FLAN to a PLANCHET. It upset the rim as well as added the edge lettering. The upset rim contained the flow of metal and forced it into the recesses of the dies creating a better struck coin.

The coin in question seems to be a later die state with the dentils on the die worn away creating the open space near the edge. The chatter you see is MOST LIKELY from PMD but I would have to inspect the coin to be sure. If it was the edge lettering running up over the edge you could tell by looking at the rim and seeing if the edge lettering was incomplete at the top or bottom of the letters running into the rim area. It is very obvious once you see one you will recognize it on a regular basis.

I hope this helps a little. If you have any additional questions please let me know and I'll try to answer them.

Brad

jacrispies

Thanks @BustDMs, my thoughts exactly. I'll settle with PMD and the impossibility of it being created at the mint.

CaptHenway

Over the years I have seen a few lettered edge coins, including foreign gold coins such as the Mexican 50 Pesos, where the edge lettering was not centered properly on the edge, causing some irregularities on the rims of the coins. This is not what I remember them looking like.

To me this looks like a slightly damaged coin, though I would need to see it to be sure.

lilolme

@jacrispies You seem to have taken my prior post as a challenge or similar on your opinion of the OP coin. It was not. I was simply passing along some information on the castaing machine that I had found. That is - the done before striking, upset rim (which if I read before I had forgotten but that would not be unusual), uncentered lettering, the bellyline from cutting which sounded like an inconsistent process and perhaps more so if cutter is getting dull. I wondered if this could cause that line insider3 had mentioned after going through castaing machine. But since you took it as a challenge to your opinion, then perhaps others did also. So I deleted the information as my intent was only to pass along the information I had found that was related to the discussion in this thread to others whom might be interested. Perhaps I will start a new thread with the information but not sure it is worth a thread (if I do I will include the author and thanks for the article).

jacrispies

@lilolme Not exactly sure what you are talking about. I did not mean to challenge anything, and I apologize if so. Any information is welcome in my threads. I have studied examples of all those anomalies, so I simply dismissed those because none could possibly create a sharp rim fin.

lilolme

@jacrispies I didn't say you challenged anything but that you took my post as a challenge to your opinion. A better word would have been took my post as a refute to your opinion of the coin. The why or what I am talking about - right after my post you tagged me and stated that none of those things represent the OP coin. Then you tagged two more people for opinions and then followed up with restating that it was PMD. This all appears related to my post or due to my post. So it appeared to me that my post was taken to refute your opinion. Since it was not and was meant to pass along information, I thought it was best to remove it to try and make it as best I could.

jacrispies

@lilolme Ok.🤷🏻‍♂️

sparky64

If I was the consignor, I'd be pulling the coin out of the auction due to this much public shade being cast over my coin and I would not be very happy about it either.