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Is this 1954-S Dime Full Bands?

ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 16, 2024 1:50PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I won this dime recently and was wondering if maybe this coin should be resubmitted to try for a FB designation.
Edited to add: Currently in PCGS MS67 holder.

Question 1: I'm only mildly familiar with the designation. Clearly the vertical lines are weak on this reverse and I don't think they count. I think I can argue that the horizontal bands appear be all there, although barely. What say the forum? The FB designation adds $268 in guide value. But also hard to see PCGS changing their mind on this one. This is in a more recent holder with the blue-fade background.
Question 2: if I do send it back for regrade, should I have it conserved to remove the toning or does anything think the toning "adds" to the coin rather than taking away?
Question 3: Does this dime have a shot at 67+? A + adds over $100 value without FB, and adds $1900 value with FB. Bag marks are minimal unless hidden by toning or not visible in picture. Luster can be improved with restoration, but strike is weak.

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    OwnerofawheatiehordeOwnerofawheatiehorde Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it would get FB, not sure why not. As for toning I would leave it on, I consider it to be what PCGS calls neutral toning, it does not add or subtract to the coin.

    Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON

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    mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WAYNEAS said:
    It would be a hit or miss on the FB attribution. To me the lower bands are not distinct enough.
    Best of luck in your decision.
    No is my answer to questions 2 & 3.
    Wayne

    The lower band not full is what I'm seeing.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2024 2:18PM

    From only this photo the lower bands do not look full. I think the eye appeal would be helped if the tone was removed as I do not think it is attractive in the least. I think a 67+ and FB is a very longshot, and only getting one of the two (I think the + is more likely after a dip than the FB) is really not worth the time and expense imo given the limited upside.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can someone elaborate when they say that the bands to not appear to be "full?"

    The vertical bands certainly appear better in person. Here are some TV shots of the lower band of dime PCGS designated FB.



    So how are these any better than mine/what is mine lacking?

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭✭✭

    you can not compare with some that are designated as some slip through that should not be

    you need to compare with what they say is required

    • most lack on the edges where they hit the field
    • on your dime, the lower band looks interrupted

    Would you crack out and submit raw if you were trying again?

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2024 2:59PM

    @davewesen said:
    you can not compare with some that are designated as some slip through that should not be

    you need to compare with what they say is required

    • most lack on the edges where they hit the field
    • on your dime, the lower band looks interrupted

    Would you crack out and submit raw if you were trying again?

    That's true, looking at other bad examples is probably not going to be reliable but it is amazing that those examples made it.

    I was contemplating using PCGS restoration service which would cost $10 + 3% GP but economically since I only have about $25 in it, it probably makes sense to crack it out, e-zest it, and send it in raw for a total cost around $28. Even if it comes back MS66 it's not a big hit. That's really the biggest risk.

    Here's a closeup of the lower band. I just noticed there's kind of a smudge on the slab right above the band that I think is contributing to some fuzziness.

    To me the band is fairly strong at the edges where typically they are weak. But I think the line is distinguishable across the entire span. It looks better in person. Maybe I'll play with my microscope and make a video if I can figure that out.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:
    Can someone elaborate when they say that the bands to not appear to be "full?"

    The vertical bands certainly appear better in person. Here are some TV shots of the lower band of dime PCGS designated FB.



    So how are these any better than mine/what is mine lacking?

    The vertical bands aren’t taken into consideration, only the horizontal ones.

    “Full Bands (FB) is the designation following the numerical grade of some business-strike Roosevelt dimes which display full separation on the two sets of bands crossing the torch on the reverse.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS has seen it recently given the prongs in the photo. I would suspect it looks close but no cigar!

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    Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I say no to FB. Not a distinct separation on the upper & lower half of the bottom bands. I've sent in 20 to 25 that have a more distinct line. Only 4 got the FB. If it was mine, I would not submit it. Just my opinion.

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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bottom band just left of center is what is holding it back. I’ve seen worst in FB’s but at that lofty grade and date it would be tough. I think. Also the vertical lines shouldn’t have a effect on weather it’s FB or not

    Hard to tell if it could go 67+ from the photo. Looks mark free but the eye appeal and luster could hold it back

    It is a nice dime just not spectacular

    Martin

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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say not

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    SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No.

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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    CRHer700CRHer700 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve always wondered about this as well. Can anyone show some pics of an ideal FS coin for a rosie and a merc?

    Cheers, and God Bless, CRHer700 :mrgreen:

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    GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 812 ✭✭✭✭

    A Full Band only pertains to a Mercury Dime which must have the horizontal lines full with no break.
    The Roosevelt dime which you have is known as a Full Torch in which case both the vertical and horizontal lines must be full for a FT designation.

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greenstang said:
    A Full Band only pertains to a Mercury Dime which must have the horizontal lines full with no break.
    The Roosevelt dime which you have is known as a Full Torch in which case both the vertical and horizontal lines must be full for a FT designation.

    Please, this is not an NGC coin or forum, to which your comments would apply but do not apply to this PCGS dime.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2024 11:39PM

    Borderline Have to have it in hand.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roosie

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is one without the full torch. This is a 67+FB

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    Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greenstang said:
    A Full Band only pertains to a Mercury Dime which must have the horizontal lines full with no break.
    The Roosevelt dime which you have is known as a Full Torch in which case both the vertical and horizontal lines must be full for a FT designation.

    I believe you have them reversed. FT refers to Mercury dimes. FB refers to Roosies.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2024 8:04AM

    @Tom147 said:

    @Greenstang said:
    A Full Band only pertains to a Mercury Dime which must have the horizontal lines full with no break.
    The Roosevelt dime which you have is known as a Full Torch in which case both the vertical and horizontal lines must be full for a FT designation.

    I believe you have them reversed. FT refers to Mercury dimes. FB refers to Roosies.

    I believe you’re mistaken. I’ve never heard of “FT” with respect to Mercury Dimes. Feel free to check the PCGS and NGC price guides and/or population reports, as well as for-sale listings and auction lot descriptions.

    Edited to add: PCGS uses the “FB” designation for both Mercury and Roosevelt dimes. On the other hand, NGC uses “FB” for Mercury dimes, but “FT” for Roosevelt dimes.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mark, then is it an NGC thing for FT ?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:
    Mark, then is it an NGC thing for FT ?

    See my previous post, to which I added additional information.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:

    @Greenstang said:
    A Full Band only pertains to a Mercury Dime which must have the horizontal lines full with no break.
    The Roosevelt dime which you have is known as a Full Torch in which case both the vertical and horizontal lines must be full for a FT designation.

    I believe you have them reversed. FT refers to Mercury dimes. FB refers to Roosies.

    Um... there's no torch on a Mercury dime.

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    Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you. I Stand corrected. Proves that one is never to old to learn. Personally I have about 700 FB PCGS Roosies, not a single slabbed Mercury.

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    StoogeStooge Posts: 4,649 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No to the FB's
    No to the conservation
    No to the Upgrade shot at 7+


    Later, Paul.
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With Jefferson's nickels, the steps are usually more complete when the overall strike is less complete. God only knows how many nickels with sluggish strikes but yet have at least 5 steps have been certified FS. Are dimes graded along the same mindset where a coin does not necessarily need to have a full strike before the bands are counted? With the OP's coin, less hairline details would have given stronger bands?

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So I went ahead and restored it myself. Here are the results which I am pleased with. I still think the surface has minimal bag marks and the ones that are there are really minor ticks. The luster is now superb. The bands get better or worse depending on angle. I think they are all there but I don't know what might disqualify the designation.

    I will be sending this in, I will post the results here. I think worst case is the coin remains MS67 and I'm out the grading fee but the toning, which I think is ugly, is gone.




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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2024 7:24PM

    @ProofCollection I guess the only way to know for sure is send it in. Like
    I’ve said in an earlier post. I’ve seen less bands in FB holders. But I don’t think this one will make it.

    Also Stooges eye is pretty good on the Rosie’s

    If its going to keep you up at nights wondering just send it in, it’s not that much. Especially if that little voice in your head keeps wondering one way or the other.

    Martin

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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 Tom you have a bunch of FB’s what percentage of yours have bands somewhat like the OP’s coin?
    I’d imagine at least a few?

    Thanks
    Martin

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    StoogeStooge Posts: 4,649 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roosevelt dimes have different strikes on the bands for different years. Those are nice bands but my opinion is that they are not there. Send it in and see what PCGS says. If it has FB I'll send you the $14 it cost to get it graded.


    Later, Paul.
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    emeraldATVemeraldATV Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    64 DD rev, Un decided if this would help in this thread. Example only.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @emeraldATV said:
    64 DD rev, Un decided if this would help in this thread. Example only.

    In what way could that help? It's not a graded example that can be used as a comparison coin and it's not remotely close to FB.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2024 5:02AM

    I don’t see it as fb.

    LCoopie = Les
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @emeraldATV said:
    64 DD rev, Un decided if this would help in this thread. Example only.

    In what way could that help? It's not a graded example that can be used as a comparison coin and it's not remotely close to FB.

    It has one full, thick band at the bottom. :)

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    Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Martin said:
    @Tom147 Tom you have a bunch of FB’s what percentage of yours have bands somewhat like the OP’s coin?
    I’d imagine at least a few?

    Martin : Without going back and looking, I'm guessing very few. The vast majority of my Roosies were bought already slabbed and a little more than half are FB's. Yes, I have close to 1200 PCGS slabbed Roosevelt dimes. Another 100 or so from ATS. In case you haven't guessed, it's my favorite coin. To be more direct to your question, Of the less than 80 I've submitted myself after comparing them to some of my slabbed FB's, I learned an expensive lesson. Another guess here. Maybe 15 to 20 got the FB designation. Learned enough to know that the bottom horizontal band must have complete and well defined separation and I would not submit the OP's coin with any confidence on getting the FB.

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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 It is obvious that it is your favorite coin and you have a excellent set. I also wouldn't sent it in.

    It is very hard from pictures to grade a coin as we all know. Some are way better than others at it, same as with having the coin in hand there are just more skilled people in every aspect of life.
    Going by the photos alone on this dime I don't think it will get the grade............ however like I've said, I've seen coins like this or at least coins that I think are not full bands in full band holders. The word tweener keeps popping up in my head, some tweeners make one side of the line others do not. Tweeners are like the NFL, on any given day they may surprise you.

    I saw the OP is going to send it in, I wish him well and hope he does have a full band dime there (not that I see it there from the photos). PCGS will get to make the call.

    I also think some people got a little something from this tread and that is a good thing.

    @MarkFeld Not nitpicking but I do see that in Heritage descriptions they use FB at times with the NGC coin grade (IE 66fb not 66ft) we are all human and I would think anyone looking at them knows what they are meaning.

    Martin

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, I think there's enough uncertainty here that there is a chance it can get FB. Certainly there are examples of FB in holders that do not warrant it. In hand, being able to rotate and handle it, I see two distinct bands but I agree that in certain angles under magnification and lighting it doesn't look as good.

    In the end, it's fairly cheap tuition but I would love to fill my 1954-S FB slot.

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Martin said:
    @Tom147 It is obvious that it is your favorite coin and you have a excellent set. I also wouldn't sent it in.

    It is very hard from pictures to grade a coin as we all know. Some are way better than others at it, same as with having the coin in hand there are just more skilled people in every aspect of life.
    Going by the photos alone on this dime I don't think it will get the grade............ however like I've said, I've seen coins like this or at least coins that I think are not full bands in full band holders. The word tweener keeps popping up in my head, some tweeners make one side of the line others do not. Tweeners are like the NFL, on any given day they may surprise you.

    I saw the OP is going to send it in, I wish him well and hope he does have a full band dime there (not that I see it there from the photos). PCGS will get to make the call.

    I also think some people got a little something from this tread and that is a good thing.

    @MarkFeld Not nitpicking but I do see that in Heritage descriptions they use FB at times with the NGC coin grade (IE 66fb not 66ft) we are all human and I would think anyone looking at them knows what they are meaning.

    Martin

    Here's one where the guy says it has FBL. :)
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/264811735508?itmmeta=01HQ1DHXJNPAEHCK53QZAY6WQZ&hash=item3da80269d4:g:jYkAAOSwOb5fIJkT&itmprp=enc:AQAIAAAA4G21cOLyqmmTqLDmnix2j3BLWxk3XGW+xbnjjm5QKT8zlQ+1e27ktmklSvWfvN+oYYKWYwz+9WIkHPtHGZtYmwfir3AgqGG8ELUskcDSdlgZjDy0J++C02U7SCgLpYlYnPpy/nEGGAHEVs1G5Xmq+ShAEVB1YmNgOVvad4TEv4joT1neaoTpBUtER8HMebcMMGlhz0D6tCnV4454t+9qVnabzaSmctemGKdheNvUm7bGFtPDjzAhYyslFLPJIfrV46fZE7mH/g+762D5ZomN2Bh1aOD5vxieIIt8c3stjWUM|tkp:Bk9SR7bZx624Yw

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @leothelyon I was expecting a Franklin But yes those are FB on that 54-s no doubt

    Martin

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    MartinMartin Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2024 12:56PM

    comments on this one?

    Edited to say not mine saw it on the bay, after Leo got me there :D By the way that is one expensive dime.

    Martin

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question 3: Does this dime have a shot at 67+? A + adds over $100 value without FB, and adds $1900 value with FB. Bag marks are minimal unless hidden by toning or not visible in picture. Luster can be improved with restoration, but strike is weak.<

    It does have a weak strike but I like the lathe lines showing on the reverse. Weak strike/details and lathe lines tell me this coin came from later made dies not early dies. The die polish lines in the fields out in front of the nose look like an obstacle to 67+ fields. There are 10 MS66FB coins on ebay most are lustrous. Why would you want a weakly struck, not too lustrous example> @Martin said:

    @leothelyon I was expecting a Franklin But yes those are FB on that 54-s no doubt

    Martin

    He has about 40 54-S dimes all with TV in various grades and no sales in last 3 months....likely all sent in hoping for higher grades! He may have got one but not for sale.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @leothelyon said:

    Question 3: Does this dime have a shot at 67+? A + adds over $100 value without FB, and adds $1900 value with FB. Bag marks are minimal unless hidden by toning or not visible in picture. Luster can be improved with restoration, but strike is weak.<

    It does have a weak strike but I like the lathe lines showing on the reverse. Weak strike/details and lathe lines tell me this coin came from later made dies not early dies. The die polish lines in the fields out in front of the nose look like an obstacle to 67+ fields. There are 10 MS66FB coins on ebay most are lustrous. Why would you want a weakly struck, not too lustrous example

    It's lustrous now! Do die polish lines count against the grade? I wouldn't think they do.

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, I have the dime restored and graded... No FB and a downgrade to 66! You can't win them all. But this was educational.

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    erscoloerscolo Posts: 497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would believe it will achieve FB, though like others have said, the lower band would be better if more distinct. The toning distracts from the coin for me, a personal choice.

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bummer on the downgrade, I think it looks way better now.
    I don't think I understand FB on Roosies, this looks pretty good from where I sit. What's needed for FB on these?

    Collector, occasional seller

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since nobody has posted it, here are the PCGS designation requirements:
    Mercury Dimes --- the central bands on the fasces on the reverse should be completely separated from left to right without any breaks, marks or gaps.

    Roosevelt Dimes --- nothing is listed at the page describing designation, but I have always understood it to be the same as above --- except --- that it refers to both the top and bottom set of bands on the torch.

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    Since nobody has posted it, here are the PCGS designation requirements:
    Mercury Dimes --- the central bands on the fasces on the reverse should be completely separated from left to right without any breaks, marks or gaps.

    Roosevelt Dimes --- nothing is listed at the page describing designation, but I have always understood it to be the same as above --- except --- that it refers to both the top and bottom set of bands on the torch.

    I'm still having a hard time seeing where the "breaks, marks, or gaps" are, if someone can point that out I would appreciate it. On the upside, the trueview is pretty decent.

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