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I remember when I saw all of the recent fake "PCGS" slabs I said it was only a matter of time...

burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 14, 2024 12:32PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Until they duplicated the chip.

1st, this example of a very expensive (when genuine) China gold piece; currently still available through OfferUp:


https://offerup.com/item/detail/1632540169

Bar code scans correctly and points to the genuine example (images courtesy Heritage):


I posted this one in one of my FB Groups, and my friend and dealer "JT" replied another had come across his counter:

The unique thing (maybe just to me) was it had a chip that scanned correctly to the PCGS cert page...

For folks with Face Book, the following is his video: https://www.facebook.com/john.miner.5/videos/702676151991874?idorvanity=508983702618769

Comments

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    CRHer700CRHer700 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭

    China, always just behind us, regardless of what we do to them.

    Cheers, and God Bless, CRHer700 :mrgreen:

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    SapyxSapyx Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Which tells me that at one stage, the criminals have either (a) had this specific coin in their possession, to be able to copy it, or (b) have hacked/cracked the code and now know how to make RFID chips that give the correct response for any PCGS coin.

    I've said it before: these guys have the tech to create a realistic duplicate of a rare coin, and of a plastic slab. Replicating the chip shouldn't be too hard for them, once they crack the code.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now this is really concerning. If they have a way to duplicate the chips we are all in trouble. They could be passing $50-$1000 coins with very little effort and no one would know if the coin doesn't have a TV so you can see the real coin.
    I all ears if someone has a solution.

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    ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Disturbing for sure! :/
    Another blow to our hobby. :'(

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if it can be made, it can be duplicated

    photos of every coin and its holder would help, but pcgs doesn't do this and needs help with TVs

    there is the fingerprinting of the coin. when that came out, I said every coin should get it. I still say this

    super-counterfeits are just around the corner, knowing a mint made apart from a counterfeit made will be super important. one day we'll have a flood of high grade wheat cents and more

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2024 8:19PM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    if it can be made, it can be duplicated

    photos of every coin and its holder would help, but pcgs doesn't do this and needs help with TVs

    there is the fingerprinting of the coin. when that came out, I said every coin should get it. I still say this

    super-counterfeits are just around the corner, knowing a mint made apart from a counterfeit made will be super important. one day we'll have a flood of high grade wheat cents and more

    What do you consider a "super counterfeit"?

  • Options
    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    yeah, i guess i haven't been paying 100% attention lately (been gone for over a year)

    but that and fresh off the factory presses morgans minted from cnc dies

    coin silver is easy to obtain. anyone want a ms 16-d dime? how about 10 high grade ones?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    MetroDMetroD Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2024 11:18AM

    I was unable to access the FB video in the OP.

    So, please excuse me if this question has already been answered.

    It APPEARS that when a holder with a genuine chip is scanned, the system returns a 'verification banner', and the PCGS cert page.


    Source: https://www.pcgs.com/security

    I can see from the screenshot in the OP that JT's example returned the PCGS cert page. Did it also return the 'verification banner'?

    Edited to Add:
    I am NOT a NFC expert. However, a cursory search suggests that it is fairly easy to program a chip with a URL. For example, a PCGS cert page (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Given this, I am simply attempting to identify any differences between a valid authentication scan, and one that could be suspect.

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    GaCoinGuyGaCoinGuy Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭✭

    While some may object on grounds that it is intentionally damaging the coin, but there seems to be a need for a micro-laser engraving on the edges or something...like they do with diamonds at times.

    What's the next logical course to prevent counterfeits?

    imageimage

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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MetroD said:
    Edited to Add:
    I am NOT a NFC expert. However, a cursory search suggests that it is fairly easy to program a chip with a URL. For example, a PCGS cert page (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Given this, I am simply attempting to identify any differences between a valid authentication scan, and one that could be suspect.

    It is easy. The chip returns more than just a URL. It also returns a time-based value which expires after a couple of minutes. If the value isn't current, then PCGS returns an error page.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12558059/#Comment_12558059

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :#
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

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    Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 6,725 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2024 1:01PM

    The chip duplication is concerning, but the slab alone screams fake.

    • no prongs
    • no NFC chip logo in the bottom left corner

    Edited to add, the font used on the label is spot on though.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    There is no way to post what I'm about to write without hearing from haters and nay-sayers. Trust me that on a scale of 1-10, that coin would be suspect (3-4) to virtually ANY ONE who has ever examined the surface of several examples of non-US gold under magnification using fluorescent light. They would not know good or bad for sure but they would easily see it looks "different." May deceptive fakes look genuine at first even to long time authenticators. Authentication is no longer easy. Forty years ago I could ID 95% of fakes from anywhere and any era (if I knew what the genuine should look like) before they reached the stage of my stereo scope. Today I often need several minutes to authenticate something simple like a Japanese Trade dollar!

    Slabs are an aid. You still must knw what you are looking at. No one who does not seriously collect Chinese gold should even consider buying a coin as this AT ANY PRICE (which is often a clue). Several rare Chinese gold types walked into our office with a Chinese man with a "grandfather story" two months ago just like this one.

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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    High resolution photos that pop up when you do a cert verification, like they already have if there is a trueview, should be the easiest way to identify a coin. For coins that don’t have trueviews I think there should be a way to see a private picture of the coin if it’s registered in the registry. I believe when you do a cert lookup that it has a link on the bottom of the page to the registered coin if the owner has it set up for public viewing. So this should already work, meaning you should be able to compare the coin you are scanning to a picture. This should work at least until they figure out how to make them truly indistinguishable from the real coin. But even then, they won’t be able to match toning, don’t really know about modern coins that aren’t toned though.

    Mr_Spud

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    MetroDMetroD Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3 said:

    @MetroD said:
    Edited to Add:
    I am NOT a NFC expert. However, a cursory search suggests that it is fairly easy to program a chip with a URL. For example, a PCGS cert page (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Given this, I am simply attempting to identify any differences between a valid authentication scan, and one that could be suspect.

    It is easy. The chip returns more than just a URL. It also returns a time-based value which expires after a couple of minutes. If the value isn't current, then PCGS returns an error page.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12558059/#Comment_12558059

    Thanks for the info. As you can probably already discern, I am not very tech savvy.

    Was not talking about a legitimate chip from PCGS, and its associated processes. Instead, was suggesting that the bad guys could program their chip to return the PCGS cert verification page for a specific coin (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Again, I am not very technology oriented. As such, I do not have much experience with PCGS NFC authentication. So, I hope that you, and everyone else, does not mind an ignorant question.

    What are the (significant) differences between:
    ~ the publicly available PCGS cert verification page, to which the bad guys could presumably link via a chip that they program;
    ~ and, the response when you scan a legitimate PCGS chip?

  • Options
    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The legit page knows it's an NFC-enabled slab. Try it and see, but it should detect it wasn't the full-up request.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    retirednowretirednow Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And how does one know if the PCGS verification page linked to a chip is real and not a forged replica site.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MetroD said:

    @BStrauss3 said:

    @MetroD said:
    Edited to Add:
    I am NOT a NFC expert. However, a cursory search suggests that it is fairly easy to program a chip with a URL. For example, a PCGS cert page (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Given this, I am simply attempting to identify any differences between a valid authentication scan, and one that could be suspect.

    It is easy. The chip returns more than just a URL. It also returns a time-based value which expires after a couple of minutes. If the value isn't current, then PCGS returns an error page.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12558059/#Comment_12558059

    Thanks for the info. As you can probably already discern, I am not very tech savvy.

    Was not talking about a legitimate chip from PCGS, and its associated processes. Instead, was suggesting that the bad guys could program their chip to return the PCGS cert verification page for a specific coin (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Again, I am not very technology oriented. As such, I do not have much experience with PCGS NFC authentication. So, I hope that you, and everyone else, does not mind an ignorant question.

    What are the (significant) differences between:
    ~ the publicly available PCGS cert verification page, to which the bad guys could presumably link via a chip that they program;
    ~ and, the response when you scan a legitimate PCGS chip?

    .

    I don't normally use the phone app except at a show or similar (usually laptop) but I checked them.
    What is below:
    First screen shot is the phone App if you type in the cert number or scan the bar code.
    Second, all I did was scroll down the first one to make it look like the OP. It covers up the notice.
    Third is two part. This is the cert verification but not using the App but rather the phone web browser. A little different arrangement but still has the up front notification (again it is two phone screen shots).
    Last, I can't scan the chip of the OP, so I scanned one of mine. This is without using the phone App and how it comes up on the phone web browser. If I use the App it will look like the others from the App but with the same (green) verification at the top.
    .

    .
    oooooooooo
    .

    .
    oooooooooo
    .


    .
    oooooooooo
    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • Options
    MetroDMetroD Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @MetroD said:
    Thanks for the info. As you can probably already discern, I am not very tech savvy.

    Was not talking about a legitimate chip from PCGS, and its associated processes. Instead, was suggesting that the bad guys could program their chip to return the PCGS cert verification page for a specific coin (e.g., https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31073305).

    Again, I am not very technology oriented. As such, I do not have much experience with PCGS NFC authentication. So, I hope that you, and everyone else, does not mind an ignorant question.

    What are the (significant) differences between:
    ~ the publicly available PCGS cert verification page, to which the bad guys could presumably link via a chip that they program;
    ~ and, the response when you scan a legitimate PCGS chip?

    .

    I don't normally use the phone app except at a show or similar (usually laptop) but I checked them.
    What is below:
    First screen shot is the phone App if you type in the cert number or scan the bar code.
    Second, all I did was scroll down the first one to make it look like the OP. It covers up the notice.
    Third is two part. This is the cert verification but not using the App but rather the phone web browser. A little different arrangement but still has the up front notification (again it is two phone screen shots).
    Last, I can't scan the chip of the OP, so I scanned one of mine. This is without using the phone App and how it comes up on the phone web browser. If I use the App it will look like the others from the App but with the same (green) verification at the top.

    Thank you for posting this. I realize that it took some time, and appreciate your efforts. :)

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