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erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 7, 2024 4:06AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I was reminded last night of why I hate their auctions. I can research my bid and place it. Sometimes I am fortunate enough to win the internet auction, sometimes not. I was lucky to be the top bidder on 2 nice coins last night, well above my max bids at the conclusion of the internet auction. However, the rant for the day is that after their internet auction, they hold a live auction. I was outbid last night after winning the internet auction. What is the point of the internet auction if you have a live auction afterwards! :s

Sorry, rant over!

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Comments

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JW77 said:
    I'm not sure I understand your comments. There are not two auctions. It's one auction with internet bidding prior to the live auction. You did not win the "internet auction, you happen to be the high bidder prior to the start of live bidding. Sometimes that holds, more often than not it does not. This is a common methodology among all the major auction houses.

    never before heard about such a cheeky auction.
    have not bid on HA auctions in years... for other reasons.
    But this??? makes no sense, except greed...

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know it has been like this for years. Still, it's frustrating, I guess that is why I stepped away several years ago. Why even have the internet auction? I will step away from them and it will be just fine.

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erwindoc said:
    I know it has been like this for years. Still, it's frustrating, I guess that is why I stepped away several years ago. Why even have the internet auction? I will step away from them and it will be just fine.

    Folks are not always available for the live auction. Placing bids, maximum bids , or proxy bids prior to the live auction allows one to still compete for a coin they are interested in.

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Been doing business since Steve Ivy auctions. No complaints whatsoever. The things I don't like I understand.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 404 ✭✭✭✭

    I am one of those people who place my best bid on the internet and let it ride. Seriously. The site openly states there is a chance for live bidding. I don't participate in that because I will end up spending more than I want to. you bid what YOU were willing to spend. Someone else was willing to bid more. I have been participating in heritage auctions since the mid 90"s.
    This is suppose to be news? James

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erwindoc said:
    I know it has been like this for years. Still, it's frustrating, I guess that is why I stepped away several years ago. Why even have the internet auction? I will step away from them and it will be just fine.

    Why? To collect bids from people who cannot make the live auction. With the possibility of winning if there is no greater interest at the live auction.

    Why? To let people know where the pre-bidding is, so they can calibrate proxy bids accordingly, rather than just submitting a proxy bid blind and having no idea whether or not it is competitive.

    Why? To maximize bidding. Which, after all, is their objective as agent for the seller.

    This is why even have the internet auction. While it might frustrate people looking for a deal, it helps maximize the final hammer, which is all they care about.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Like others have said, it's not an internet auction, it's proxy bidding. You can also log in and watch the live auction, and also bid over the internet live.

  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NJCoin said:

    @erwindoc said:

    .......

    This is why even have the internet auction. While it might frustrate people looking for a deal, it helps maximize the final hammer, which is all they care about.

    I would clarify the definition of "they" as meaning "Heritage and the Consignor"
    Having consigned pieces that fell both into their major live auctions and their exclusive internet only bidding ... I was pleased to see how active my internet only bids were when the live button was turned on ... :)

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It sounds like the internet bids are essentially absentee bids, which most auctions provide for. The only difference is that you can see the bids.

    This method lets bidders know what the highest absentee bid is so they can avoid putting in meaningless bids.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    It sounds like the internet bids are essentially absentee bids, which most auctions provide for. The only difference is that you can see the bids.

    This method lets bidders know what the highest absentee bid is so they can avoid putting in meaningless bids.

    Heritage may be responsible for some of the confusion. They don't actually call it a pre-bidding period. They call it "internet bidding" or "proxy bidding". But they pretty clearly indicate that the auction is (for example) to take place starting at 8 p.m. on 2/05 and that the "proxy bidding" ends at 6 p.m.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Heritage may be responsible for some of the confusion. They don't actually call it a pre-bidding period. They call it "internet bidding" or "proxy bidding". But they pretty clearly indicate that the auction is (for example) to take place starting at 8 p.m. on 2/05 and that the "proxy bidding" ends at 6 p.m.

    In fact it is no confusion at all. "proxy bidding" auction mean all the auction will be by internet with no room presence at finals calls. The auctions after the catalogs are final, will open beforre the final date and hour, with choice to bid min or max by internet, phone or mail. All the auctions are scheduled to take place in one place, at the time and date. So on the final auction could be by phone, internet and room presence.

    conclusion : do not exist pre-biding. Just bid after a specific auction is declared open to bid.

    PS: I never work or acctually work for any auction house. It is whar I learn from about 50+ years ago after my first very proud winn of a big scrap metal at age of 5 who cost my father 20 time more to remouve, pay the 10 soldiers and the millitary truck and also a lady from abassady to teach me how it work and how to go for auctions. Also in that time (no internet) was open the auction before the room bid.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,796 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought that heritage holds pre-auction bidding which leads to the actual live auction. 🤔

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,...
  • slider23slider23 Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JBK said:
    It sounds like the internet bids are essentially absentee bids, which most auctions provide for. The only difference is that you can see the bids.

    This method lets bidders know what the highest absentee bid is so they can avoid putting in meaningless bids.

    Heritage may be responsible for some of the confusion. They don't actually call it a pre-bidding period. They call it "internet bidding" or "proxy bidding". But they pretty clearly indicate that the auction is (for example) to take place starting at 8 p.m. on 2/05 and that the "proxy bidding" ends at 6 p.m.

    Here is a Heritage listing of a Trade Dollar and they note when the live bidding starts on Mar 11, 2024:

    Auction 60370 | Lot 54018 » Silver and Related Dollars » Trade Dollars

    1878-CC T$1 AU55 NGC. With the lowest circulation strike mintage of the Trade dollar series, the 1878-CC is scarce in all grades. The Carson City Trade dollar mintage was halted in February 1878 after only 97,000 pieces were struck upon the Mint's decision to halt regular Trade dollar production upon introduction of the Morgan silver dollar series. A few months later, as many as about half the 1878-CC Trade dollars were melted. This is a Choice About Uncirculated survivor, with deep Autumn-brown toning throughout each side and sharply struck devices. A few scattered marks are hidden beneath the rich patina, with a minor obverse rim indent at 11 o'clock. (PCGS# 7047)
    Live auction on Mar 11, 2024

    The OP needs to read the auction listing before bidding, but I can understand the confusion as I have won an auction at Heritage by only placing a proxy internet bid.

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 3,978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The OP needs to read the auction listing before bidding, but I can understand the confusion as I have won an auction at Heritage by only placing a proxy internet bid.

    Don't think the OP was confused, maybe just frustrated..

    @silviosi said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Heritage may be responsible for some of the confusion. They don't actually call it a pre-bidding period. They call it "internet bidding" or "proxy bidding". But they pretty clearly indicate that the auction is (for example) to take place starting at 8 p.m. on 2/05 and that the "proxy bidding" ends at 6 p.m.

    In fact it is no confusion at all. "proxy bidding" auction mean all the auction will be by internet with no room presence at finals calls. The auctions after the catalogs are final, will open beforre the final date and hour, with choice to bid min or max by internet, phone or mail. All the auctions are scheduled to take place in one place, at the time and date. So on the final auction could be by phone, internet and room presence.

    conclusion : do not exist pre-biding. Just bid after a specific auction is declared open to bid.

    PS: I never work or acctually work for any auction house. It is whar I learn from about 50+ years ago after my first very proud winn of a big scrap metal at age of 5 who cost my father 20 time more to remouve, pay the 10 soldiers and the millitary truck and also a lady from abassady to teach me how it work and how to go for auctions. Also in that time (no internet) was open the auction before the room bid.

    I personally have never found Heritages auctions confusing at all....
    Until now 😳

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,310 ✭✭✭✭✭

    tuition paid, in my books, i didnt know all that either here

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 404 ✭✭✭✭

    Sorry but this whole thread reminds me of an experience I had late January. Bruce, a fellow who owns a grocery store I do business with was being berated by this woman who would "Never shop there again!" because he wouldn't sell her ribeye steaks at the price posted all over the store saying "SALE END SUNDAY". He pointed out they didn't have any left (YES for all you Karens out there it said while supply lasts) and it was Monday afternoon. So here goes.

    EVERY COIN LISTED SAYS WHAT TIME LIVE BIDDING BEGINS. NO CONFUSION. This applies to all coins, not just the one's you don't want. Oh, and those BRIDGE OUT signs don't apply to you either.

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erwindoc said:
    I was reminded last night of why I hate their auctions. I can research my bid and place it. Sometimes I am fortunate enough to win the internet auction, sometimes not. I was lucky to be the top bidder on 2 nice coins last night, well above my max bids at the conclusion of the internet auction. However, the rant for the day is that after their internet auction, they hold a live auction. I was outbid last night after winning the internet auction. What is the point of the internet auction if you have a live auction afterwards! :s

    Sorry, rant over!

    Actually, were I a seller, this is the way I would like my auction to be run.

    As a buyer, I love the ability to snipe; but that doesn't help the seller, since, on occasion, given the opportunity, other bidders would raise again.

    All the "live auction" part does is give everyone the same opportunity to respond to all bids. Seems fair to me!

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silviosi said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Heritage may be responsible for some of the confusion. They don't actually call it a pre-bidding period. They call it "internet bidding" or "proxy bidding". But they pretty clearly indicate that the auction is (for example) to take place starting at 8 p.m. on 2/05 and that the "proxy bidding" ends at 6 p.m.

    In fact it is no confusion at all. "proxy bidding" auction mean all the auction will be by internet with no room presence at finals calls. The auctions after the catalogs are final, will open beforre the final date and hour, with choice to bid min or max by internet, phone or mail. All the auctions are scheduled to take place in one place, at the time and date. So on the final auction could be by phone, internet and room presence.

    conclusion : do not exist pre-biding. Just bid after a specific auction is declared open to bid.

    PS: I never work or acctually work for any auction house. It is whar I learn from about 50+ years ago after my first very proud winn of a big scrap metal at age of 5 who cost my father 20 time more to remouve, pay the 10 soldiers and the millitary truck and also a lady from abassady to teach me how it work and how to go for auctions. Also in that time (no internet) was open the auction before the room bid.

    Proxy bidding means the auction house bids on your behalf. It has nothing to do with whether or not there is a live portion. It has nothing to do with WHEN the bidding takes place.

    I did not say that I was confused. I did, however, offer a spot of grace to the OP who might have been.

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erwindoc said:
    I know it has been like this for years. Still, it's frustrating, I guess that is why I stepped away several years ago. Why even have the internet auction? I will step away from them and it will be just fine.

    It is not an internet auction.

    You are simply placing an advanced bid and the bids are revealed to indicate the maximum bid.

    Auctions have operated this way since Og sold the 2nd wheel. If you can't attend the live session, there is some way to place a pre-bid. The auctioneer opens the live bidding by running up to the highest pre-bid.

    You can bid by mail, via the internet, call HA and put in a pre-bid, or even stop off at their office. And it's all clearly indicated in their T&Cs.

    T&Cs are important. Read them.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2024 10:55AM

    @ jmlanzaf said
    Proxy bidding means the auction house bids on your behalf.

    Yes you are right if your maximum bid is higher on some auctions who has room also. For those who wrote just proxy bid is mean just by internet, phone or mail, and no room attendency. For me is normal. We have not to forgot that auctions are restricted to strict federal laws. The only small hint it is when the auction house specify that they do not could be keep responsable for the authenticy of the item. their it is the big question of the fairness.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Possibly the OP intended to say the way other auction companies run their auctions is more preferred by him.

    I personally like Internet and in person both allowed until the final bell rings vs one closing and the other taking over. The argument that the goal is to maximize revenue falls short if you end/ turn off internet bidding at a certain point.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Money, money, money, money ...

    All glory is fleeting.
  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭

    I hate to say this but this has got to be the dumbest thread I have opened in years. HA.com has 2 auctions back to back, always learning something here.........crazy

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,684 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There’s something like 7 ways to bid at heritage, maybe more…..

    Mail-in bid, fax bid, in-person, phone bid, proxy bid, live internet bid, ……. Probably some others I can’t think of at the moment. There’s a protocol about which takes precedence if two high bids come in at the same price……

    If you don’t thoroughly understand it (you must click & certify that you do prior to bidding) you might have a nasty surprise.

    Ultimately the most frustrating thing is when someone else wants it more than you do.

    As a consignor, I’m highly interested in them making it very easy for people to place bids. Bid early, and bid often!

  • Heritage is better than a stamp auction that I placed a bid recently, I put in a bid that is a couple of hundreds higher than the opening bid, I was watching the auction, when the auction ended my opening bid won, there were no other bidders, so I thought my minimum bid won, yet later I was charged my max bid even there were no other bidders.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bigmountainlion said:
    Heritage is better than a stamp auction that I placed a bid recently, I put in a bid that is a couple of hundreds higher than the opening bid, I was watching the auction, when the auction ended my opening bid won, there were no other bidders, so I thought my minimum bid won, yet later I was charged my max bid even there were no other bidders.

    Ouch

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @bigmountainlion said:
    Heritage is better than a stamp auction that I placed a bid recently, I put in a bid that is a couple of hundreds higher than the opening bid, I was watching the auction, when the auction ended my opening bid won, there were no other bidders, so I thought my minimum bid won, yet later I was charged my max bid even there were no other bidders.

    Ouch

    Which firm was that???

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bigmountainlion said:
    Heritage is better than a stamp auction that I placed a bid recently, I put in a bid that is a couple of hundreds higher than the opening bid, I was watching the auction, when the auction ended my opening bid won, there were no other bidders, so I thought my minimum bid won, yet later I was charged my max bid even there were no other bidders.

    I'm not sure it should matter, but could there have been a reserve that your bid was raised to meet?

    In any case, I'd want to know from the auction house what was going on.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've always been a bit apprehensive about putting a max bid while logged on to someone's website. Not heritage per say but anyone. They must be able to see how much your willing to bid. I don't like the idea of that.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a ridiculous post

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    I've always been a bit apprehensive about putting a max bid while logged on to someone's website. Not heritage per say but anyone. They must be able to see how much your willing to bid. I don't like the idea of that.

    A. You're willing to bid that much.
    B. Why would they risk their reputation over a couple bucks.
    C. I've placed thousands of bids that way without difficulty.

  • jeffas1974jeffas1974 Posts: 288 ✭✭✭

    This concern may not entirely be unfounded. Here is a link to a thread from another forum where a poster specifically mentions that a decently known auctioneer (at least in the currency world) would take advantage of max bid information. See around post 35 or so on the chain.

    https://www.papermoneyforum.com/post/have-we-reached-the-top-yet-12796337?highlight=lyn

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I've always been a bit apprehensive about putting a max bid while logged on to someone's website. Not heritage per say but anyone. They must be able to see how much your willing to bid. I don't like the idea of that.

    A. You're willing to bid that much.
    B. Why would they risk their reputation over a couple bucks.
    C. I've placed thousands of bids that way without difficulty.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    I've always been a bit apprehensive about putting a max bid while logged on to someone's website. Not heritage per say but anyone. They must be able to see how much your willing to bid. I don't like the idea of that.

    Then you don't like the idea of proxy bidding. So don't do it. Either bid live, or don't bid at all. That way, your cards are always close to the vest, and you have total control.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    @ Boosibri said:
    This is a ridiculous post

    Become to be the most ridiculous post here. If you do not understand the auctions, just look the TV. Why so much back and foward for simply things?? You do not understand the auctions?? Just stay aways. GOOD POINT BOOSIBRI

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    This is a ridiculous post

    Agreed. If heritage would go out of business we could all stop complaining about them.

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭

    I completely trust Heritage. On numerous auctions I have put a nuclear bid way before an auction has ended and won the coin for tens of thousands less. No auction house is perfect but their auction program has never failed me and I have never ben taken advantage of by any auction house, in particular HA.com.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2024 6:08PM

    The answer is simple. NEVER bid during the internet only bidding session. Wait until the coin goes live and THEN bid, either in real time or by proxy.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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