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Authentic or no?


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  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,459 ✭✭✭✭

    Ebay sale. Unslabbed. Dealer I do not know. I would not chance it. B)

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    Why no?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Counterfeit. The date looks wrong.

    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1824-5/8132

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 11:21AM

    The date position, star positions, and reverse device positions are a match to the Coinfacts photos of genuine coins.
    However, the date and stars look more bold than they should be.
    This is often an indication of a counterfeit.
    [Edit to add:] It may be the lighting angle which makes the date and stars look more bold.

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 503 ✭✭✭✭

    Every single aspect of the coin looks thicker than it should be or bolder as Yosclimber suggested, it is counterfeit no question about it. When you compare to an original side by side it is quite obvious imo

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭

    Stay away from it.
    When doing a side by side comparison, too many red flags.
    Also why is a valuable coin like this not slabbed.

  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭

    I also would say no. The date is really bad imo, especially the 8.

    Joe.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What can be seen on the edge in the eBay pics is not genuine. As others have said the date etc. are more bold. The dentil placement is correct which can be done with a digital transfer, but the shape is not genuine - compare to the Bass-Dannreuther reference. JD says 30-40 known of this date, that should be a red flag for a raw coin on eBay.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    What if I could produce a PCGS receipt for when this coin was sent for grading, but it was not holdered because of altered surfaces?

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That proves nothing. It needs to be in a genuine labeled holder.

    You are pretty stubborn on this coin.

  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    @fathom said:
    That proves nothing. It needs to be in a genuine labeled holder.

    You are pretty stubborn on this coin.

    How is asking questions stubborn?

  • JJMJJM Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Run

    👍BST's erickso1,cone10,MICHAELDIXON,TennesseeDave,p8nt,jmdm1194,RWW,robkool,Ahrensdad,Timbuk3,Downtown1974,bigjpst,mustanggt,Yorkshireman,idratherbgardening,SurfinxHI,derryb,masscrew,Walkerguy21D,MJ1927,sniocsu,Coll3tor,doubleeagle07,luciobar1980,PerryHall,SNMAM,mbcoin,liefgold,keyman64,maprince230,TorinoCobra71,RB1026,Weiss,LukeMarshall,Wingsrule,Silveryfire, pointfivezero,IKE1964,AL410, Tdec1000, AnkurJ,guitarwes,Type2,Bp777,jfoot113,JWP,mattniss,dantheman984,jclovescoins,Collectorcoins,Weather11am,Namvet69,kansasman,Bruce7789,ADG,Larrob37
  • ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hasn’t it been a long time since PCGS “body bagged” coins? I think everyone here would be satisfied by a details/genuine altered surfaces holder. Even one from ANACS or another bigger non-PCGS company that’s respected for authentication.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    no way, looks bogus and/or cleaned for some reason

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,178 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This coin is currently being sold on eBay. The seller has 853 sales with a 100% positive feedback rating and he is guaranteeing this coin's authenticity. If you pay by credit card and a major grading service says it's not genuine, your credit card company should be willing to do a charge back for you. There are at least three current or former professional graders and authenticators who are active participants here. I would like to hear their opinions of this coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Halfpence said:
    What if I could produce a PCGS receipt for when this coin was sent for grading, but it was not holdered because of altered surfaces?

    How would we know it's the same coin?

  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Halfpence said:
    What if I could produce a PCGS receipt for when this coin was sent for grading, but it was not holdered because of altered surfaces?

    How would we know it's the same coin?

    We wouldn’t.

  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    @ShaunBC5 said:
    Hasn’t it been a long time since PCGS “body bagged” coins? I think everyone here would be satisfied by a details/genuine altered surfaces holder. Even one from ANACS or another bigger non-PCGS company that’s respected for authentication.

    It’s my understanding that the seller chose not to have it holdered when it didn’t straight grade.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1824 coins weren't struck in a collar so they shouldn't have a raised area on the rim like this which is metal flow between the collar and die.

  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    1824 coins weren't struck in a collar so they shouldn't have a raised area on the rim like this which is metal flow between the collar and die.

    Hmmm. Other such coins seem to have that rim:
    https://www.usacoinbook.com/coins/3789/gold-5-half-eagle/capped-bust/1824-P/

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,178 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    1824 coins weren't struck in a collar so they shouldn't have a raised area on the rim like this which is metal flow between the collar and die.

    Wouldn't the edge lettering process using the Castaing machine raise the rim?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    1824 coins weren't struck in a collar so they shouldn't have a raised area on the rim like this which is metal flow between the collar and die.

    Wouldn't the edge lettering process using the Castaing machine raise the rim?

    These have a reeded edge, not a lettered edge.
    I think they were struck in a collar. So that would explain the thin rim.

    I also think the coin is likely genuine, but with odd (altered) surfaces.

    I was under the impression that collars were first used in the late 1820's.

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Y> @Halfpence said:

    What if I could produce a PCGS receipt for when this coin was sent for grading, but it was not holdered because of altered surfaces?

    So I understand correctly, you messaged the seller and they offered to procure said receipt?

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nysoto said:
    It is this coin, from Heritage 8/2/2017 in an NGC improperly cleaned UNC details guaranteed authentic (when in holder)
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-eagles/1824-5-bd-1-high-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-unc-pcgs-519933-/a/1258-4134.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    Looks like a match as far as I can tell...nice work!

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So was in a NGC holder, cracked out to eliminate the details grade, and then sent to PCGS for a better result and detailed for altered surfaces.

  • HalfpenceHalfpence Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭

    Good sleuthing, Nysoto!
    @fathom, eat your heart out! ;)

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Owner says he purchased the coin from an auction firm in 2017, so the story matches up. Good work everyone. Curious to see what this goes for and who will buy it.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @Nysoto said:
    It is this coin, from Heritage 8/2/2017 in an NGC improperly cleaned UNC details guaranteed authentic (when in holder)
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-eagles/1824-5-bd-1-high-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-unc-pcgs-519933-/a/1258-4134.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    Looks like a match as far as I can tell...nice work!

    The date does not look the same. Look at the 8 and 2

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Halfpence said:
    I'm not sure I'd say "good work everyone". At least 10 people claimed (some emphatically) that it was not authentic. Two thought it was genuine. This is a very interesting case study on chat board opinions.

    I agree with you. I saw this coin in the Early Halves category minutes after it was posted, had it at AU-55 genuine.

    I am glad we have closure to know this coin is genuine. Those who are wrong can learn from this situation. Don't judge a poor Ebay listing too quickly!!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @lermish said:

    @Nysoto said:
    It is this coin, from Heritage 8/2/2017 in an NGC improperly cleaned UNC details guaranteed authentic (when in holder)
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-eagles/1824-5-bd-1-high-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-unc-pcgs-519933-/a/1258-4134.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    Looks like a match as far as I can tell...nice work!

    The date does not look the same. Look at the 8 and 2

    It's tough to see a lot of the identifying marks with the lighting of the new photos but every mark I can find matches perfectly. And the 8 and 2 look the same to me - I think any differences could be explained by vastly different lighting & shadows.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Idk. Lighting and angle is different. But that doesn't look the same to my eye, especially the "2". The inner loop looks pointed in the top photo and flat in the bottom. The top of the two also looks more rounded in the top photo than the lower photo.

    The "8" looks thicker in the top photo, but maybe that's lighting.

    Even the "1". The base looks very rectangular on the top photo but is more sloped on the bottom photo.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @lermish said:

    @Nysoto said:
    It is this coin, from Heritage 8/2/2017 in an NGC improperly cleaned UNC details guaranteed authentic (when in holder)
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-eagles/1824-5-bd-1-high-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-unc-pcgs-519933-/a/1258-4134.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    Looks like a match as far as I can tell...nice work!

    The date does not look the same. Look at the 8 and 2

    It's tough to see a lot of the identifying marks with the lighting of the new photos but every mark I can find matches perfectly. And the 8 and 2 look the same to me - I think any differences could be explained by vastly different lighting & shadows.

    It could, I suppose. The larger marks on the reverse appear to match up. I still wouldn't buy it.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @lermish said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @lermish said:

    @Nysoto said:
    It is this coin, from Heritage 8/2/2017 in an NGC improperly cleaned UNC details guaranteed authentic (when in holder)
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-eagles/1824-5-bd-1-high-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-unc-pcgs-519933-/a/1258-4134.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    Looks like a match as far as I can tell...nice work!

    The date does not look the same. Look at the 8 and 2

    It's tough to see a lot of the identifying marks with the lighting of the new photos but every mark I can find matches perfectly. And the 8 and 2 look the same to me - I think any differences could be explained by vastly different lighting & shadows.

    It could, I suppose. The larger marks on the reverse appear to match up. I still wouldn't buy it.

    Well, that's a whole different story :D

    I think the eBay pic has the coin or camera held at an angle, slightly out of focus, and way different lighting. We've all seen stuff like that before, I really think that can explain the appearance of any potential discrepancies like you're describing.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 2:40PM

    @Halfpence said:
    Good sleuthing, Nysoto!
    @fathom, eat your heart out! ;)

    Cracked out of a holder still means nothing. TPGs make mistakes.

    I still would not mess with it.

    Pun intended.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fathom said:

    Cracked out of a holder still means nothing. TPGs make mistakes.

    I was going to say there is a possiblity the Heritage coin was a host to the OP, but the more I looked, there are just too many small matching circulation ticks that could not have been transferred to a fake. It is the same coin. I would still want a pic of the edge reeds though.

    Some early coins posted here have been deemed by PCGS as authenticity not verifiable. The coin is raw, and until it gets back into a details slab with authenticity guarantee, the value is speculative. Risk/reward in this auction.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's listed on Ebay as a half dollar. Wonder if it would do better as a half eagle?

    ebay.com

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 4:27PM

    I'm still suspicious. Why would this person have paid $25,000 in 2017, kept it raw instead of in a details holder and now listed it on ebay with no reserve? That coin is worth way more in a details holder.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 4:26PM

    .

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I'm still suspicious. Why would this person have paid $25,000 in 2017, kept it raw instead of in a detail holder and now listed it on ebay with no reserve? That coin is worth way more in a details holder than raw.

    Maybe he placed it in his Whitman type set folder :D

    Or perhaps he is hoping someone will pay full price thinking it is an Unc.

    Either option is totally ridiculous and comical. but you have to remember, many people that collect expensive coins don't actually know much about coins.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I'm still suspicious. Why would this person have paid $25,000 in 2017, kept it raw instead of in a detail holder and now listed it on ebay with no reserve? That coin is worth way more in a details holder than raw.

    Maybe he placed it in his Whitman type set folder :D

    Or perhaps he is hoping someone will pay full price thinking it is an Unc.

    Either option is totally ridiculous and comical. but you have to remember, many people that collect expensive coins don't actually know much about coins.

    People are an inscrutable lot...

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @jacrispies said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I'm still suspicious. Why would this person have paid $25,000 in 2017, kept it raw instead of in a detail holder and now listed it on ebay with no reserve? That coin is worth way more in a details holder than raw.

    Maybe he placed it in his Whitman type set folder :D

    Or perhaps he is hoping someone will pay full price thinking it is an Unc.

    Either option is totally ridiculous and comical. but you have to remember, many people that collect expensive coins don't actually know much about coins.

    People are an inscrutable lot...

    I'm basing this on absolutely nothing except speculation but maybe the seller thought he could "fix" the issues.

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