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Heritage to auction over 1,500 cancelled U.S. coin dies

ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 22, 2024 1:30PM in U.S. Coin Forum

1,563 NGC cancelled 1994-D Cent, Dime & Quarter coin dies to be auctioned by Heritage:


(No- they are not mine)

mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
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  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 2:17PM

    As some of you are aware, Heritage has previously auctioned a group of 200 NGC cancelled coin dies:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/10067/

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This group is not mine- they were sold previously

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can't say I've ever seen a slabbed die before, funny to think about. I don't see any earlier type dies, looks to be all modern low denomination. Many of the same date.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I looked a couple on their website but they're just side pics.

    Does anyone know if the die face is ground smooth or if they're canceled like this:

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,429 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    Can't say I've ever seen a slabbed die before, funny to think about. I don't see any earlier type dies, looks to be all modern low denomination. Many of the same date.

    I suppose it never occurred to them to do something like an old ANACS Photo Certificate?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    interesting to see how the market absorbs this hoard. If it is mostly the defaced dies you can get for $20-$40 on eBay, it won't even cover boxing cost and then Heritages $29? minimum buyers premium.

    Those Olympic dies with a nice X over face still seem to get $400-$600 and more for the 'rare' ones

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is there any distinguishing characteristic between dies? If not, are the prices going to drop over the course of the auction as everyone who wants one gets one? It seems that there are over 1500 lots of just three distinct items, which doesn't make for a normal variety seen in an auction.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The defaced state quarters have no detail but when they come with a coin they can have some true gems.

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sometimes the printed catalog will have a blurb about the collection. I wish that info was available online. Or if it is available online, I wish it was easier to find.

  • goodmoney4badmoneygoodmoney4badmoney Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    I looked a couple on their website but they're just side pics.

    Does anyone know if the die face is ground smooth or if they're canceled like this:

    I'm guessing they are all ground flat based on the NGC label description.

  • goodmoney4badmoneygoodmoney4badmoney Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭

    The die on the right is a US Nickel die from 1998 that's defaced by being ground flat. The die on the left is a US Dime die from the 1960s that's defaced by being torched.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Martin said:
    If they are ground flat then what’s the point? (Serious question)

    Thanks
    Martin

    It's still a Mint used die.

  • rte592rte592 Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Martin said:
    If they are ground flat then what’s the point? (Serious question)

    Thanks
    Martin

    It's still a Mint used die.

    It's not my thing, but the interesting part was defaced.
    People will collect most things, some have an interest in these.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rte592 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Martin said:
    If they are ground flat then what’s the point? (Serious question)

    Thanks
    Martin

    It's still a Mint used die.

    It's not my thing, but the interesting part was defaced.
    People will collect most things, some have an interest in these.

    It's an artifact, defaced of not. People collect the original canvas bags even when the coins are gone. People collect the original boxes for classic commems even when the coins are gone. It's an artifact which, if not defaced would have been recycled as scrap metal and lost.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,635 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2024 4:20AM

    @Lakesammman said:
    No wonder Phil went to GC - he saw that mind numbing job coming up! :D

    Considering that he didn't work for NGC or Heritage, I don't believe he would have had any such job coming up. ;)

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,175 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is it still a die if the design is totally ground off? Is it still a car after it's crushed into a cube?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    Is it still a die if the design is totally ground off? Is it still a car after it's crushed into a cube?

    Sure, why not? It's a crushed car and a defaced die. You just need the adjective.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Byers said:
    Here is a unique obv/rev set of U.S. Mercury Dime dies. I purchased them raw out of Heritage and then had NGC slab them:

    Are those actually canceled, or were they just too lightly impressed and then discarded?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    Is it still a die if the design is totally ground off? Is it still a car after it's crushed into a cube?

    Car destruction=Value destruction

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2024 8:06PM

    Andy-

    According to Heritage Auctions-

    “ The die faces were smoothly effaced rather than crudely cancelled or defaced as often seen on discarded and obsolete Mint dies.”

    Dave Camire from NGC told me that they were definitely cancelled, and are the only Mercury Dime Dies in private hands that he is aware of.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Byers said:
    Andy-

    According to Heritage Auctions-

    “ The die faces were smoothly effaced rather than crudely cancelled or defaced as often seen on discarded and obsolete Mint dies.”

    Dave Camire from NGC told me that they were definitely cancelled, and are the only Mercury Dime Dies in private hands that he is aware of.

    Actually, the vertical die crack through Liberty's neck proves that the die was at one point good enough to be used in production.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Andy- you are correct!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it’s cool to match a die with a coin!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • Married2CoinsMarried2Coins Posts: 124 ✭✭✭

    Do dies of a particular coin type break in the same place? I've seen two Mercury dimes with a break through the neck.

  • MartinMartin Posts: 802 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Martin said:
    If they are ground flat then what’s the point? (Serious question)

    Thanks
    Martin

    It's still a Mint used die.

    I guess that is the point.

    I’m a pack rat and can’t throw much of anything away. No way I’d buy something like that. If some one gave me a few I’d be hard pressed to throw them out. Just because……we’ll just because as soon as I did, I’d find a use for them.

    Now the Morgan’s with a cross through them that is totally a different thing. Those are very cool to me

    Martin

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @Byers said:
    Andy-

    According to Heritage Auctions-

    “ The die faces were smoothly effaced rather than crudely cancelled or defaced as often seen on discarded and obsolete Mint dies.”

    Dave Camire from NGC told me that they were definitely cancelled, and are the only Mercury Dime Dies in private hands that he is aware of.

    Actually, the vertical die crack through Liberty's neck proves that the die was at one point good enough to be used in production.

    The parallel lines on the cancelled Mercury Dime die suggest (maybe prove) that the design was ground off, rather than a weak impression.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • DrDarrylDrDarryl Posts: 581 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2024 1:22AM

    https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/

    Type in the verification number and select other, then obverse or reverse image can be seen.

    From my Hawaiiana collection.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4930365-002/Other/

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool Hawaii 50C obv/rev dies!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it is great that all these nice dies are being shown, but as far as I can tell the Heritage auction just has ground off moderns.

  • gonzergonzer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2024 1:05PM

    Shouldn't /wouldn't an uncancelled die still be property of the Mint?

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Byers said:
    Martha Washington Obverse Die
    Used to Strike Half Dollar
    Experimental Test Pieces
    for U.S. Judd #2131
    NGC Certified & Encapsulated
    ONLY 2 KNOWN IN PRIVATE HANDS

    Is there a reverse die in private hands that is also uncanceled ?

    And if so, :o:o:o

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2024 1:34PM

    I was to see the Heritage catalog. Only Dies from Denver 1994. Not interesting for me.

    The Mint from end of 1999 grind all the dies and sel in set with one of the first 20 acceptable strike coin, with certificate.(somebody post the photo here before) I can not pronounce how many sets by coins denomination sell, but IMHO not more then 2 sets by coin.

    Me I have one set from 2001 receive gift from the Mint in Denver when the V2 of the horisontal Shuller preses upgrage was installed and this because the production director see me looking at this set in the store, waiting the rest of the teams from Germany finish theirs verifications and tests.

    I think the price was something like 79.99$.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chris- the only known reverse die in private hands and certified by NGC is my Cent size reverse die:

    Martha Washington Reverse Die
    Used to Strike 1 Cent
    Experimental Test Pieces
    for U.S. Judd #2180
    NGC Certified & Encapsulated
    UNIQUE IN PRIVATE HANDS

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • ByersByers Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The U.S. Mint tested new designs and compositions in 1965, 1982, 1999 and in other years as well.

    In 1999 the U.S. Mint sent the Martha Washington Dies to (3) private firms located in the U.S. and to (2) private firms in Germany to strike test pieces in these new compositions and designs.

    No attempt was made to recover these dies. The U.S. Mint is aware that a few are in private hands.

    Extensive reporting and articles regarding the Martha Washington test pieces and dies have been published in the last 25 years.

    CoinWorld, US Patterns, Mint Error News, Mike Byers ( that’s me) and other publications detailed the test strikings by these dies.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • 1northcoin1northcoin Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I ordered one of the State Quarter with die sets for my State' quarter. Hoped it would have at least a portion of the design but was just ground down like shown in a post above. I may have returned it but it could still be around somewhere.

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting info here, thanks for posting it
    boston

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

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