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Vault Box is a success - like it or not
Che_Grapes
Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭✭✭
They sell out, YouTube full of “reveal” coin videos that are getting tons of attention. Look, I’m an older guy in his 50s but the younger collectors are all over this - why wouldn’t that be good for the hobby in general….?
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Oh - and happy Friday!
Did WQuarterFreddie hijack your account?
I think WQuarterFreddy represents the younger collectors I am referring to - maybe we should listen to him
I'm not going to buy one, but I don't get all the hate for Vaultbox. People can spend their money and enjoy the hobby however they want. And it is a hobby. No one hates the guy who spends $200 a week on greens fees. Very few people come out ahead in coins, and even fewer than that when you consider inflation and alternative investments. If you think Vaultbox is a waste of money, go read the threads in the card forum.
I'm sure this thread will spiral but here are my thoughts as a recent first time VB purchaser (and an older? guy in his 40s). I had fun with it. I could afford to take whatever loss I might have experienced with bad luck.
But, I think it's terrible for the hobby. If the average purchaser is a young person for which this is a lot of money and 83% of those purchasers are losing a significant amount of value for their money, I think that would put off many people. Just like slimy dealers overcharging new collectors sour people on the hobby.
Or, it's just a gamble, which I don't think will lead to an increase in people collecting.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I don't think VB has a negative effect on the hobby. Like Che_Grapes said they always sell out, have resale on ebay and unboxing videos on YouTube. The VB people get very excited around releases. The product is more for whales than anybody else. Essentially the only people harmed are the purchasers of VB and they agree to be scammed. You could argue all the hype dupes foolish consumers but a fool and their money already have a reputation.
Plenty of markets are blatantly scams anyway, that whole premium video game craze was totally artificial.
I won't buy one, can't justify the gamble and low upside on a win anyway.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
i dont see this vault box thingy to end anytime soon
You take a risk every time you send raw coins in to be slabbed
Unless some government agency decides they do not like something with the operation
Okay, my first Vault Box® Thread Comment....
what did I miss?
It's all about what the people want...
Nothing. Everyone just waiting for the fight to start once again. lol.....
Vault Box is like trading card box breaks. It is worth noting that they are controversial in the trading card hobby as well.
I’m a younger collector and I want nothing to do with it. It reminds me of Pokémon cards.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
The same reason overpriced crap sold on TV is not "good for the hobby in general." I have no problem with people doing whatever they want with their money, assuming there is full disclosure with respect to what they are buying. At this point, i think VB fits into this category, so people should absolutely feel free to enjoy themselves.
With respect to VB being a success, I think the results speak for themselves, at least to date. As far as "good for the hobby in general," I respectfully disagree.
Sure, a certain segment of the population are masochists who enjoy being abused, so this caters to them. It serves degenerate gamblers as well.
But, in general, no, people not receiving fair value for their money tend to get turned off long term. Whether it's $129 bullion on HSN or $1249 box breaks on Whatnot. Good for the hucksters, who can always move on to the next thing, not so great for the marks.
How is the secondary market for sold out, limited edition colorized and electroplated in genuine 24K gold and platinum state quarters doing? Not so good, but that does not stop HSN from hosting Magic Mike several times per year, because the money keep flowing.
After the 30 day no questions asked return period expires, it does not end well for the customer. But PT Barnum was a genius, and there are always more fools with money burning holes in their pockets. Screwing people is good, in general, for the people doing the screwing. Not so much for the hobby.
The next big thing is apparently rare 0.2 oz PR70 FDOI Coke bottle caps in a genuine Unvaulted VB slab for the irresistibly low low price of $75. Because why get an ounce of collector silver from the US Mint for that price when you can get 1/5 as much, graded in a PERFECT PROOF 70, in a limited edition VB slab? Grab a few directly from your good friends at VB before they also sell out. Great for the hobby, in general. 😂
As much as the mint gets bashed sometimes on these forums, I think its the mint that can do a much better job than vaultbox, littleton or any tv show to bring in new collectors. There's so much marketing potential in an entity that's probably the most accountable coin dealer there is out there which can bring in new hobbyists.
I'm saving my hate for Niue - population 1681
Hey Niue has nice coins...
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
They sure do. Most, if not all, of their stuff is made by the Perth Mint, which is first class all the way.
That said, $75 for 6 grams of silver fabricated to look like a Coke bottle top is steep, even graded 70, even with a VB slab. The only thing that could be worse would be finding it as one of 3 coins in a $1200 mystery box.
Like pickle rick colorized bullion?
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
A great addition to the hobby. Its interesting how people bash this but are ok with mint sets and proof sets from the mint. Most of those are big money losers.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Yes, it has been a success. Hundreds of collectors have lost tens of thousands of dollars in this scheme. Bernie Madoff and Kenny Lay would be amused.
Absolutely a success, for VaultBox.............
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
But do proof sets cost $1200? Laying down what $50 for a proof set (or whatever they cost) is different than this IMO. Hard to lose big money on $50? That is the cost of a Shepherd's pie and a pint on Youngs double chocolate stout at a pub these days.............
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
I don't have a problem with Vaultbox but if I'm going to gamble I would rather go to a casino.
Or play the stock market at $1200.....................
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
It's just gambling and as long as you are not betting money you can't afford to lose, I see no down side. If you are involved for your plans for the hobby, then not so good for you.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Lest we forget;
It doesn’t matter if they talk good about it or talk bad about it, so long as they talk about it.
Promote fortune cookie.
Except that it appears that the non-influencers who play seem to have far less chances at a big score than the house claims............
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Ha ha fair enough—
This fine gentleman clearly has not purchased recently from the US Mint - 50 dollars? The ASE are 80 nowadays and the gold proofs can easily EASILY exceed 1200 and yes it’s gold but you’re paying some ~50% over spot! Anyway love these comments - y’all have made my morning … super good points made regarding vault box..📦
Yes. You've got an $800 or $900 proof premium on the 1 oz gold.
Ouch, whoda thought? I guess that is why I have never bought from the US Mint...........
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
US Mint makes 14 cents on every quarter it produces "sells" us.
It amazes me the mint is as successful as it is.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
They have a monopoly on circulation coinage.
Personally I think Vault Box is a money losing proposition but it’s not my money. I spent money on 3 vacations last year that I’ll never see back. My vacation is someone’s vault box.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
But that covers the production - fhey aren’t made for free
I have a feeling Vaultbox 5 jumped the shark. Price was too high. Watching the big timers on Whatnot trying to sell off boxes one coin at a time in mystery games to get out from under them.
Opening night the vast majority of boxes I saw were barely beating issue price. They need to go back to cheaper boxes, and maybe raise the floor a little otherwise I’m seeing them go the way of the dodo.
My Ebay Store
I stopped by a show recently and a couple of dealers had Vaultbox slabs in their case for sale.
I have not followed pricing on them but I was surprised at the asking prices.
They were priced like a rattler or better!
Some people must be buying them for the plastic because the coins I saw in them were common coins.
I didn't see anyone buy one so the dealers may still have them in their case a year from now.
25 cents - 11 cents production = 14 cents profit
It's called seigniorage
Anyone care to calculate profit using real coin values (e.g. Greysheet) instead of inflated price guide value?
Or the prices are inflated to mitigate losses to at least some degree.
I did. I took the VB1 coins / quantity and entered that along with the GS value for each into a spreadsheet. Well almost for each, there were a couple that were not explicitly identified in the GS copy that I had, which was an older one 08/2022. An example of something that was not in the GS would be the '2011 25th Anniversary $10 American Gold Eagle NGCX Mint State 10' and with those couple I could not find I estimated the value based on what similar items were listed for in the GS. The coin in the unidentified population were 4 out of a total of 264 items in the VB1 universe so not going to skew the final estimate much. Also they were all 'generic' type coins, with 2 'uncommon' and 2 'rare'.
Anyway the Greysheet value of the 2,400 total coins was $409,794. The VB1's sold for $595.00 each for a total of $1,428,000 so a gross profit of approximately $1,018,000. Again that total is gross profit and there are additional costs ie: slabbing, packaging, marketing, etc.
Please note that my calculations are based on my older Greysheet, am missing the values for 4 coins, etc. but should give an idea of what the return is. And it was tedious looking up and entering the values...they should be right but I might have mistyped an entry here and there.
K
So this is the legendary Fountain of Youth(vault box)
👆 No wonder ngcpcgs have been snapped up by corporate.
When you sit at the table and don't see who the mark is, it's you.
and unlike a vacation, vaultbox purchases have at least some residual value left over, so not a 100% loss. I like gambling, but prefer a softer house edge.
If one buys enough Vaultboxes do they at least get comped to the buffet? P, T. Barum was so right!
Well, the scam is not a success with me. If I want to gamble, I think I get better odds in the lottery or the local casino.
How is success measured? Only by the sellouts? What a crock.
And that is all I have ever contributed on this topic and will not be back.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I have no problem with the first part but the "better odds in the lottery" is absurd.
1 in 6 people get a red core. Those who don't get some value back. Using @ElKevvo 's math above, the expected return for all VB purchasers is 71 cents on the dollar. Few will profit, even fewer will make a big profit. And yes, blackjack or roulette and even slots are better odds (although some of the "side bets" can start to approach the low odds).
But when the Powerball was at a $2 billion jackpot the expected return was 16 cents on the dollar. And MUCH less with a smaller prize pool.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
They are over valued coins without a CAC sticker. Just saying.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I guess, if you consider living life and having experiences a "100% loss."