Is bending a bent coin back considered doctoring?
braddick
Posts: 23,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had an interesting discussion with a fellow collector. He was/is under the impression any type of work done, post mint is considered doctoring the coin.
It may be mild- such as a dip- or severe, such as putty or tooling. He described the 'offenses' as infractions and misdemeanors and felonies.
As we were talking about this I had mentioned a bent bust half I had in a PCGS slab (labeled as bent) that I was able to gently bend back without causing any stress or signs of the repair (for lack of a better word).
This half then proceeded to grade out at the VF level.
He states this was a form of doctoring and even labeled it as a misdemeanor.
His reasoning gave me pause.
What are your thoughts?
Is restoring a slightly bend coin something that should be disclosed?
I am now on the fence, having had a strong opinion on this beforehand, and now not being so sure I am right.
peacockcoins
Comments
It is if it can be detected
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My thoughts are:
A. Your friend is obviously not an attorney.
B. “Doctoring” is a vague term that is used by different people in different ways. Personally, I would not use it to describe straightening a bent coin, but that’s just me.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is a well-executed repair the same as doctoring? To me (and I am not an expert by any means), doctoring conceals an issue. If a bend is successfully reversed then the issue no longer exists.
If a hole is plugged, the hole no longer exists.
If a hairlined or scratched coin is whizzed or polished or lasered to remove the hairlines or scratches…
And so on.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If the repair can't be detected, why disclose it?
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
But all of those examples involve missing or removed original surfaces. If a coin is successfully "unbent" then there is no disruption.
Conserving has never been doctoring..
Would you say the same about artificial toning, puttying or other forms of doctoring you knew had been performed. but which couldn’t be detected?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’d disclose it, and if I had to label it with one word, I’d call it “repaired” or “straightened”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A phrase I heard the other day, your not speeding unless you get pulled over...............
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
If it somehow weakened the coin where it’s going to somehow rebend or crack then should be disclosed. If it was so mildly bent that no damage occurred unbending it then probably similar to removing a contaminant. But technically it is moving metal, but nothing like altering the date or tooling it.
Mr_Spud
Would you do so after PCGS had already placed it in a regular graded slab?
peacockcoins
All I can say is I would not want to own said coin. We all know that a bend in metal will technically always have a bend to some degree in it. I want to own a coin that isn't bent in the least and never was and obviously never worked on to correct such damage.
I doubt that I’d knowingly ever
buy such a coin. But if I did, yes, I’d disclose the issue, even if the coin got placed in a straight grade holder. The reason is, that as a potential buyer, the circumstances would still matter to me and probably to many others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The person who said that might have thought he was being clever or funny, but was obviously incorrect. And the same would go for coin doctoring, even if it were undetected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with @MFeld . The coin is repaired and that should be noted on the slab. I would not want to own a coin like this.
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An ethical seller would reveal that it had been repaired even it was straight graded by our host and had a CAC sticker. I imagine most buyers wouldn't really care.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I've heard sandwiching a coin between two pieces of plexiglass then putting that in a vise can sometimes adress it. But metal has a memory. On being overly righteous, Catholics have a word: "scrupulosity".
If you found a good coin in circulation and got it into a 64 holder, would you reveal to all potential buyers that it is actually a circulated coin?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Knowing that coins found in circulation can be graded mint state, based on the present grading scale and “standards”, as long as the grade looked to be accurate, I don’t think I’d say anything.
I realize that answer might be considered inconsistent with my stance on bent coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To me its the same as repairing a car after an accident. As a buyer, wouldn't you want to know it was in an accident before purchasing, no matter how good the body repair was. There could always be issues inside beyond initial inspection of the exterior.
To properly unbend a bent coin, you must heat it up (annealing).
This unquestionably destroys the patina.
I would consider this restoration of a damaged coin, but you could certainly call it doctoring.
In my world, coins are kind of like shovels.
Fancy little tools that have a job to do.
What if we all collected mint state shovels and spent tedious hours trying to determine if they'd ever been used to dig a hole?
VF bust half that may have had a slight bend at one time? I doubt it'd ever occur to me to care one way or the other...
Of course, I'm closer to the @emeraldATV end of the spectrum than most here when it comes to coin condition..😂
In my world, coins that are collected aren’t at all “kind of like shovels”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No I wouldn't, Putty is a whole different situation.
A gold coin would bend much easier than a silver or clad coin. It would also straighten much easier than a silver or clad coin.
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
>
I really was on the fence until I read this.
No matter how good the repair, the ‘item’ will never be technically as good as if it never happened.
Excellent analogy by the way!
Blacksmiths and doctors share the same operating room.
I understand the theme and sentiment behind the thread but you lost me at: "He described the 'offenses' as infractions and misdemeanors and felonies".
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
No you're like a coin chiropractor. Putting it back the way it was supposed to be
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
Artificially white....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
So, if a person sends in a coin for restoration and grading ( and it’s successful) , is it criminal or morally wrong to sell it or keep it ( it’s not disclosed) ? Isn’t there a doctor in the house ? Does anyone think the hobby has gone over the deep end, in the analysis department ?
i don’t see misdemeanor or felony. Not a venial or mortal sin. Neither a crime of passion or greed. I see people who enjoy a hobby. Some have great success getting bad coins in good holders. and some see good coins needing validity in a holder. It is fixing. It is a repair before encapsulation. In the old days we would hear : “ Good job”.
You are bending the Coinfacts.
( so there’s that)
Maybe what we need is Coinfax..
Well of course not, you are coinguy after all.
Just call me shovelguy from now on..
Touché! 👍
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Another great thought provoking post and debate started by @braddick
One of the reasons I love this place!
I can't imagine a coin that had been bent could ever get back to "as-struck straight", but I suppose if I bought it bent, straightened it, and got it in a straight-grade holder, I would tell the next prospective buyer straight-up if I sold it to them directly.
All that straight talk leads me towards wanting to get bent.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Where do we draw the line?
Dipped to remove tarnish? PVC removal? TPG conservation?
Should all of these be disclosed?
Who bent the coin? Give me a baseball bat and let me use the wayback machine!
So as not to profit by it by withholding pertinent information at a time of sale
Wow, such artificial concerns some people have!!
IMO, we should be concerned about the look of a coin, not what might have taken place at some point behind the curtain.
Why we consign attractive coins to the dust bin because someone gave a mild cleaning a century ago, while we straight-grade some remarkably ugly coins, defies rational analysis.
If you can "fix" a flaw in a coin, it's fixed. It's not doctored. Gee, the TPGs will "fix/doctor" a coin, in the name of "conservation." And, yet, carefully unbending a coin so that nobody could tell is a sin? Absurd!
Cars that were in a flood from acts of God must be disclosed to potential buyers.
Only if we have "dug" ourselves too deep financially into the piece. Then the shovel analogy may apply.
It's a shame what we do to/ how we treat our coin"children". Fortunate they possess no nerves.
Speaking of disclosure. In my state it is not required to tell a potential renter if the unit has a history of a murder or suicide event etc. The owner only is required to advise if asked by the potential renter.
No one here said anything that unbending the coin was a sin. Congrats to Braddick for making it better, enjoying it more in its new form, and hopefully selling it for more when that day comes. What most folks want is disclosure on what occurred to the coin to make their decision on buying. And to compare conservation to all forms of doctoring is absurd. Nothing gets the dust bin, 'details' coins get sold everyday. They should just be priced accordingly with buyers knowing what they're getting.
Maybe you can help me straighten my arm. Fifteen months later and still can't fully straighten it.
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^
Two thick pieces of leather next to two blocks of wood and a rubber mallet and/or vice.
Although, I suppose that isn't the answer you were seeking.
peacockcoins
I would send it to @dcarr. He could straighten it with an over-strike, no problem!! 😂 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
With all that metal(?) you must set off the airport bells going through security.
Just because you might not care about “what might have taken place at some point behind the curtain” doesn’t mean many others don’t or that their concerns aren’t reasonable.
Attractive coins that have been cleaned trade actively, rather than being consigned to the dust bin. And ugly coins that deserve straight grades should receive them, just as pretty coins do.
Yes, if you “fix” a flaw in a coin, it’s been fixed. But contrary to what you posted, it’s also been doctored (or repaired).
No one said or implied that unbending a coin is a “sin”. No need to include straw-man arguments.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.