@TwoSides2aCoin said:
You are bending the Coinfacts. ( so there’s that)
Maybe what we need is Coinfax..
But just like carfax, if the damage is fixed without being reported to the insurance company or police then it wouldn't come up on record. Can't always trust the coinfax.
Can we get some pictures of a coin that has been bent and unbent? There is still a lot to be considered here. For any given coin that is bent, we should expect the elements on the convex surface to be stretched while those on the concave side to be cramped. If this coin is unbent, how are the stretched and cramped elements affected in comparison to a coin of the same type that has never been bent?
Curious about what y'all think about using acetone to remove PVC residue and getting a straight grade afterward. Should a seller state "previously covered in PVC residue but has since been removed with acetone." on the listing?
@braddick said:
I had an interesting discussion with a fellow collector. He was/is under the impression any type of work done, post mint is considered doctoring the coin.
It may be mild- such as a dip- or severe, such as putty or tooling. He described the 'offenses' as infractions and misdemeanors and felonies.
As we were talking about this I had mentioned a bent bust half I had in a PCGS slab (labeled as bent) that I was able to gently bend back without causing any stress or signs of the repair (for lack of a better word).
This half then proceeded to grade out at the VF level.
He states this was a form of doctoring and even labeled it as a misdemeanor.
His reasoning gave me pause.
What are your thoughts?
Is restoring a slightly bend coin something that should be disclosed?
I am now on the fence, having had a strong opinion on this beforehand, and now not being so sure I am right.
Wow, such artificial concerns some people have!!
IMO, we should be concerned about the look of a coin, not what might have taken place at some point behind the curtain.
Why we consign attractive coins to the dust bin because someone gave a mild cleaning a century ago, while we straight-grade some remarkably ugly coins, defies rational analysis.
If you can "fix" a flaw in a coin, it's fixed. It's not doctored. Gee, the TPGs will "fix/doctor" a coin, in the name of "conservation." And, yet, carefully unbending a coin so that nobody could tell is a sin? Absurd!
Just because you might not care about “what might have taken place at some point behind the curtain” doesn’t mean many others don’t or that their concerns aren’t reasonable.
Attractive coins that have been cleaned trade actively, rather than being consigned to the dust bin. And ugly coins that deserve straight grades should receive them, just as pretty coins do.
Yes, if you “fix” a flaw in a coin, it’s been fixed. But contrary to what you posted, it’s also been doctored (or repaired).
No one said or implied that unbending a coin is a “sin”. No need to include straw-man arguments.
No strawman argument. There are a number of posts that clearly say that it must be disclosed; if it's not a sin, it needn't be disclosed.
If someone fixes a coin, and it gets a straight grade, there's no reason to disclose it. Just as, when an old cleaning gets a straight grade. And just like when the TPG conserves a coin.
Yes, if a coin is fixed, it's fixed. The term "doctored" is a pejorative, not reasonably applied to fixing a coin (whether that "fixing" is conservation by a TPG or effectively unbending a bent coin.
The flooded car analogy is not accurate because a car is a mechanical device that is more likely to fail in the future due to past flooding. Neither is the comparison with major restoration work like plugging a hole. If a coin was bent back to an appearance that is market acceptable to a TPG, I could really care less even if someone told me about it, because I know that it will continue to look that way. It’s not a latent defect and does not involve missing metal.
Bending a piece of metal alters the crystalline microstructure of the metal. "Bending it back" to its unbent state is a physical impossibility, just like cleaning a worn coin cannot make it "look like new again". The metal has not been removed, but it has been irreversibly rearranged at a molecular level. In that sense, the process is not entirely dissimilar to the electrolytic removal of tarnish - the atoms of silver haven't been removed, just rearranged.
Does it make an actual difference tot he coin's appearance? Well, if it was a very minor bend, then mostly no, just like dipping a coin just once make very little actual difference. It is multiple dippings - or in this case, multiple bendings and unbendings - that would result in obvious physical damage.
Because of the altered crystal structure, I would expect a bent-then-unbent coin to tone differently (not better, or worse, just different) to a never-been-bent coin, but given that toning has so many other variables, it would be difficult to prove as a cause.
There are added complications to un-bending coins once the silver gets several centuries old or more. The crystalline structure of a piece of silver gradually changes over time, making the silver object more brittle. Thus, an ancient or mediaeval silver coin that could have bent easily when it was new, would simply snap in half if you tried to bend (or unbend) it today. Given how thin and easily bent most mediaeval silver coins were, and given the frequent custom of carrying silver coins by bending them around a piece of string, it's a problem that comes up quite a lot.
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Comments
Is it considered “conserving “ only if it is done by a TPG service?
Lafayette Grading Set
The nature of the act, itself (not who performs it) should determine whether it’s “conserving”, “doctoring” or whatever.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But just like carfax, if the damage is fixed without being reported to the insurance company or police then it wouldn't come up on record. Can't always trust the coinfax.
When PCGS and NGC start annotating conservation I would sweat it.
Can we get some pictures of a coin that has been bent and unbent? There is still a lot to be considered here. For any given coin that is bent, we should expect the elements on the convex surface to be stretched while those on the concave side to be cramped. If this coin is unbent, how are the stretched and cramped elements affected in comparison to a coin of the same type that has never been bent?
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
If it has been bent for awhile, you will see abnormal wear.
Is it much different than using acetone to get off possible pvc?
@BLUEJAYWAY actually i haven't set any alarms off. Been thru the airport multiple times.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Curious about what y'all think about using acetone to remove PVC residue and getting a straight grade afterward. Should a seller state "previously covered in PVC residue but has since been removed with acetone." on the listing?
No strawman argument. There are a number of posts that clearly say that it must be disclosed; if it's not a sin, it needn't be disclosed.
If someone fixes a coin, and it gets a straight grade, there's no reason to disclose it. Just as, when an old cleaning gets a straight grade. And just like when the TPG conserves a coin.
Yes, if a coin is fixed, it's fixed. The term "doctored" is a pejorative, not reasonably applied to fixing a coin (whether that "fixing" is conservation by a TPG or effectively unbending a bent coin.
The flooded car analogy is not accurate because a car is a mechanical device that is more likely to fail in the future due to past flooding. Neither is the comparison with major restoration work like plugging a hole. If a coin was bent back to an appearance that is market acceptable to a TPG, I could really care less even if someone told me about it, because I know that it will continue to look that way. It’s not a latent defect and does not involve missing metal.
Bending a piece of metal alters the crystalline microstructure of the metal. "Bending it back" to its unbent state is a physical impossibility, just like cleaning a worn coin cannot make it "look like new again". The metal has not been removed, but it has been irreversibly rearranged at a molecular level. In that sense, the process is not entirely dissimilar to the electrolytic removal of tarnish - the atoms of silver haven't been removed, just rearranged.
Does it make an actual difference tot he coin's appearance? Well, if it was a very minor bend, then mostly no, just like dipping a coin just once make very little actual difference. It is multiple dippings - or in this case, multiple bendings and unbendings - that would result in obvious physical damage.
Because of the altered crystal structure, I would expect a bent-then-unbent coin to tone differently (not better, or worse, just different) to a never-been-bent coin, but given that toning has so many other variables, it would be difficult to prove as a cause.
There are added complications to un-bending coins once the silver gets several centuries old or more. The crystalline structure of a piece of silver gradually changes over time, making the silver object more brittle. Thus, an ancient or mediaeval silver coin that could have bent easily when it was new, would simply snap in half if you tried to bend (or unbend) it today. Given how thin and easily bent most mediaeval silver coins were, and given the frequent custom of carrying silver coins by bending them around a piece of string, it's a problem that comes up quite a lot.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Is it Coin doctoring? I would consider it conservation. If you consider conservation to be coin doctoring, then yes, it is.
Is it market acceptable? Yes, I believe so and, if done properly (like dipping), it should straight grade.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Wonder how many coins have had this process and if a pre disclosure was applied. Anyone here knowingly purchase one of these?
If a major league player gave you his broken bat would you try to repair it ?
Wood you ?