@BillJones said:
I used to attend this show regularly. Unfortunately the crime issue has made my wife hesitant to go, and travel is not what it used to be.
Yes, always nervous now in Baltimore; used to go for day trips, concerts, sports, and coin show but try to avoid now; I went to this show the previous two years but figure it is not worth the location risk.
Give me a break. Of course you are entitled to not attend the show but I am getting tired of those who choose to use the excuse of criminal activity in Baltimore as the reason.🙄
The show is located at the Convention Center in a safer part of Baltimore with a strong police presence and is held during daylight hours. I have NEVER heard of anyone attending the coin show report they were harrassed, assaulted or robbed by anyone.
However, I have heard and read numerous comments by members who actually ATTENDED shows the past few years report they were able to safely attend the shows.😎
I went in 2019 and 2020 during the W quarters release and never had or saw any issues. Also I recently attended baseball and now football games without incident. 😎
The key date is 2020. That’s when the riots started. The bad guys got within the shadows of the convention center. They looted and burned down a CVS drug store. Before, you always had to deal with sometimes aggressive panhandlers and the like. But now even places like the Inner Harbor have crime issues.
If you are a local person who can come and go during the day, that’s one thing. When you are at a hotel, it’s another. My wife would like to go out and do things. She doesn’t feel safe. I can’t change her feelings. She’s not going to sit in the hotel room all day and night.
Agreed but the riots didn't happen during the coin show.🤣😂
Not really the point. I like Baltimore, and I like the Whitman shows, but, face facts. Baltimore has become a huge sewer. No one should know this better than your wife from her perch in the Hopkins ER.
The area around the convention center, including Inner Harbor, went from being a vibrant tourist attraction to a desolate, depressed, intimidating toilet in a few short years. Closed storefronts literally all over the place. People loitering and up to no good literally all over the place.
Yes, Whitman and the convention center provide robust security on the premises. Beyond that you are on your own. Some people are willing to deal with it. Others don't need to, because there are other, more inviting, safer places to conduct business or go shopping for coins.
Yes, bad things happen everywhere. Still, you cannot blame people for feeling safer in Orlando than in Baltimore, because they are actually safer in Orlando than in Baltimore.
Whitman keeps going back to Baltimore because they probably have long term contracts with the convention center, and because they still do enough business for it to work economically for them. Not because Baltimore has not declined precipitously over the past 10 or so years, because it has. And not because attendance is as robust as it once was, because it isn't. 🤣😂
@OAKSTAR said:
Baltimore is a dump! But don't feel bad, it's just like Philadelphia, Chicago, New York City, DC, San Francisco, LA and Seattle! Any questions?
Yes. If attending the show is SO unsafe then why does Whitman continue to choose Baltimore for their shows? Not just one but THREE each year? More importantly, why does our host continue to support the shows?🤔
You're kidding me, right?? BECAUSE THEY'RE PROTECTED BY GUNS THAT'S WHY!! Trust me, if there was no security with GUNS these shows would not be happening................anywhere!
You are supporting my opinion which is it is safe to attend the coin shows in Baltimore. Thank you.😎
I didn't say the show was unsafe. I said Baltimore was a dump! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
My first coin show visit there, probably 20 years ago, I looked for the cheapest parking, which was around the football stadium. Great spot, except when I left it was dark and that was not a fun walk back. Next show I parked at the hotel across the street. Great venue, you have 3 shows a year to choose from and it couldn’t be easier to get to from Philadelphia. Other than the convention center, aquarium and inner harbor, I don’t think I would venture a block in any direction.
I met a client at the mondawmin mall a week after the 2016/17 riots. When I came back to the office, I told my boss I will never go back to Baltimore. He wasn’t surprised as I told him I would never go back to downtown Philadelphia either.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
I feel sorry for Baltimore, and I have felt that way since I went to my first show there in the mid 1990s. The city built a wonderful convention center, the Inner Harbor area was a joy and the Italian area has some great restaurants. Camden Yards was a great place to go to a game, and I presume the football stadium is just as good.
The trouble is all of that sits in the middle of urban decay. Instead of being able to expand the good, the bad part has grown. Explaining why is forbidden on this board, but that’s the sad truth.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
I feel sorry for Baltimore, and I have felt that way since I went to my first show there in the mid 1990s. The city built a wonderful convention center, the Inner Harbor area was a joy and the Italian area has some great restaurants. Camden Yards was a great place to go to a game, and I presume the football stadium is just as good.
The trouble is all of that sits in the middle of urban decay. Instead of being able to expand the good, the bad part has grown. Explaining why is forbidden on this board, but that’s the sad truth.
Yes. And, if you haven't been lately, Inner Harbor and the aquarium are now part of the urban decay.
It's now the convention center, Camden Yards, M&T Stadium, the Horseshoe Casino, and nothing but slum in every direction, dotted by whatever restaurants or hotels have not pulled up stakes and left, as just about all the retail and restaurants in the area have. Sure, Little Italy is still great, but it's a 20 minute dangerous walk away from the convention center after sundown.
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
Actually I do live in the area and have gone to shows there for more than 30 years!
This has ALWAYS been safe with no dangerous situations and many times have brought my handicapped/challenged friend along with me.
It is and always has been safe - and much safer than the shows I went to in Philly.
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
There is quite a bit of negative hyperbole in this thread that does a disservice to the city.
I actually tend to enjoy Baltimore and take long walks throughout the city - up to Old Goucher and down through Locust Point to Fort McHenry. The architecture, various monuments, and other sites make it an enjoyable place to walk around. Of course there are questionable folks and crime, but I’ve never felt unsafe, not even when walking around late at night or early morning.
The whitman expo is a good, large show and I always find some cool stuff to buy there. I would hope that the show location wouldn’t keep folks away. For me, it’s more of an attraction than a deterrence.
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
*They're
Thank you for the reality check! 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@OAKSTAR said:
Baltimore is a dump! But don't feel bad, it's just like Philadelphia, Chicago, New York City, DC, San Francisco, LA and Seattle! Any questions?
I don't know what one would call xenophobia about one's own country. While everywhere has its issues and property crime is regrettably higher than it should be, this is an absolutely ludicrous statement. I have travelled to everyone of those cities with my kids and wife (except Philly) multiple times within the last couple of years. Had a great time every time and never felt unsafe once.
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
*They're
Thank you for the reality check! 👍🏻
I figured if you wanted to talk about people who are foolish or stupid you should do it with proper grammar so that you don't appear to be foolish or stupid. Or maybe your uninformed opinions are enough to do that regardless of your grammar.
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
Actually I do live in the area and have gone to shows there for more than 30 years!
This has ALWAYS been safe with no dangerous situations and many times have brought my handicapped/challenged friend along with me.
It is and always has been safe - and much safer than the shows I went to in Philly.
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
Thank you! Nice to hear some support for a change. I just got tired of all of the fear mongering regarding the Baltimore show😉
@OAKSTAR said:
Baltimore is a dump! But don't feel bad, it's just like Philadelphia, Chicago, New York City, DC, San Francisco, LA and Seattle! Any questions?
I don't know what one would call xenophobia about one's own country. While everywhere has its issues and property crime is regrettably higher than it should be, this is an absolutely ludicrous statement. I have travelled to everyone of those cities with my kids and wife (except Philly) multiple times within the last couple of years. Had a great time every time and never felt unsafe once.
Congratulation, you get around.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
*They're
Thank you for the reality check! 👍🏻
I figured if you wanted to talk about people who are foolish or stupid you should do it with proper grammar so that you don't appear to be foolish or stupid. Or maybe your uninformed opinions are enough to do that regardless of your grammar.
Yes, I know what you mean about grammar...........smart boy! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
There is alot of work and effort to make the Baltimore Show successful- And it has a longstanding tradition of success for those that choose to participate. And for those that choose to complain... start by choosing a different subject to complain about.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@7Jaguars said:
I continue to be amazed by this "crime issue" - this is IMHO a complete non-entity. Common sense being the order of the day of course, but I have seen NOTHING of concern ever in more than 30 years...
Perhaps you don't live in the area ...
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
*They're
Thank you for the reality check! 👍🏻
I figured if you wanted to talk about people who are foolish or stupid you should do it with proper grammar so that you don't appear to be foolish or stupid. Or maybe your uninformed opinions are enough to do that regardless of your grammar.
Yes, I know what you mean about grammar...........smart boy! 😂 🤣
@coinkat said:
There is alot of work and effort to make the Baltimore Show successful- And it has a longstanding tradition of success for those that choose to participate. And for those that choose to complain... start by choosing a different subject to complain about.
Sorry for hijacking the thread!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
There’s a beauty on eBay….even has a green bean on it! Where’s my $200? 😉
Go look at my ad again….
This is the reason it’s best to ignore people with finder fees on coins because they have a million excuses why they won’t honor their end of the deal.
If I were a dealer that took want lists from my customers, found the coins, and then the buyers declined to purchase for the plethora of reasons given here, I’d be pissed.
I roll my eyes at scared old men more than I do vagabonds. The funny part is the scared old men are almost always the ones who swear they have the firmest grasp on perspective reality and tell it like it is but in reality they just have over active imaginations and inadequacy complexes.
The notion that inner city crime is a recent phenomenon or some how not only prolific but probable and that it is where their risks lay is daft. Bmore has its problems but you all clearly watch too much bad tv.
Stuff happens everywhere. My point is don't let others scare you away from attending “
Crime happens more in some places than others. Baltimore shows are not worth it to me anymore. Bill was correct about 2020, but the decline has been steady. Baltimore used to be relatively nice in many areas; I went to Greek Town for dinner for possibly the last time because they are losing/ have lost the neighborhood due to crime (and don’t be
@Crypto said:
I roll my eyes at scared old men more than I do vagabonds. The funny part is the scared old men are almost always the ones who swear they have the firmest grasp on perspective reality and tell it like it is but in reality they just have over active imaginations and inadequacy complexes.
The notion that inner city crime is a recent phenomenon or some how not only prolific but probable and that it is where their risks lay is daft. Bmore has its problems but you all clearly watch too much bad tv.
2019 comments, so you are somewhat correct (it was getting bad before 2020); however while you "roll your eyes at scared old men" consider that they cannot afford to have their heads stomped or be sucker punched without a strong possibility of permanent disability or death.
So... Back to Coins... I did hear some banter between dealers that their classic gold sales were really sluggish. I glanced over at his table and he had what looked like one table full of $1 - $20 gold with lots of $5 pieces. I didnt check out specific coins but most appeared MS and in PCGS and NGC plastic. And a second table full of Morgan and Peace Dollars. The only gold I was looking for was an AU $3... mostly priced 25-30% above PCGS price guide for the few pieces I looked at. The other Type I wanted was a Draped Bust Half in F12 to VF20... I found a couple but we were just too far apart in price.
In hindsight, I probably should have spent some of the money I had earmarked for an additional type piece, and just given it to Tom instead...
As for the Baltimore Show in general and crime in particular, especially in the city... I'm a Baltimore city resident and I've worked downtown, within walking distance of the Convention Center, for over a decade. I can see UMMC Shock Trauma Center from my office window and I'm over at the hospital when I have students on Clinical Rotation... I've also been going to the Baltimore Whitman Coin Expo for about as long.
If we're looking at city to city variation in crime rates, it depends on where you are... and every city... at least the one's I've lived in... are going to be that way. Labeling all of "Baltimore" as being crime-ridden while you're focusing on an event at the Convention Center is like labeling all of Miami as crime ridden and saying you'd never go to South Beach because of the violent crime in Liberty City. Or shows in Chicago because of the crime in Gary, IN... For those of us that live in Baltimore, it's like saying I'd never go to the Inner Harbor because of all the violent crimes in Sandtown-Winchester. For the Hopkins Hospital folks... even I get nervous parking my car in your neighborhood.
Certainly there are those that wouldn't be caught dead entering any "city"... I grew up in towns as small as 2000 total population... and there were STILL area of town where you were told to steer clear of due to criminal activity. Since my "small town" beginning and now being a city dweller, I have the opportunity for comparison of pros and cons in living in both settings. I can unequivocally state that it depends on what you want... I also like hiking, backpacking and rock climbing.. but work and career is better where I am, and being a Clinical Microbiologist is more lucrative than rock climbing or being a mountain guide. ..at least for me. Obviously, I'm a long way from wilderness but that's the decision I made and I'm not about to denigrate the smaller towns I've lived in because they don't have an equivalency to The BMA, The Walters Art Museum, major league football and baseball teams, world class colleges and universities, or The Inner Harbor.
Anyway, I'll continue to support dealers coming to Baltimore and using the Convention Center as the venue. It offers the flexibility of never having to leave the building if you stay at the Hilton (or Marriott ?) thus relatively no interaction with Baltimore street people, or you could Uber to world class dining a few blocks away, or you could explore a city that's been a part of the American landscape since before we were a country. However, if the powers that be decide to move the show to Sandtown... probably a hard pass for me.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
I have not been to the Whitman Baltimore show. The only time I have been to Baltimore was for the ANA in1985,1993 and 2008. I did not like the area back in 2008. The bottom line is: If you want to go, go. If you don't want to go, don't go. I will not be going to Baltimore unless the ANA decides to go there in the future.
FWIW... I've been going to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore since the 1990s. I think a more accurate timeline for why businesses have pulled out of the Harborplace and Pavilion area starts with the economic meltdown in 2008 but really started a downhill slide after the Freddy Gray riots in April 2015. Requiring the National Guard to be present essentially as an occupying force isn't a great look for downtown. Two years later, 2017, was the murder of a BPD detective about to testify against the Gun Trace Task Force... a subsequent investigation culminating in a Consent Decree for BPD to continue operations. Fast forward now six years and four Police Chiefs later there's been no consistency in law enforcement. In 2019 into 2020-2022 was the Pandemic and all tourist destinations that have lots of restaurants geared towards dining in got crushed. I was surprised to still see Cheesecake Factory still in business as well as Hard Rock Cafe. Phillips Seafood is also still open. Most other businesses have folded... with all the other businesses around and The National Aquarium, the Science Center, several museums and Little Italy also closeby, there's a huge financial incentive to invest in revitalization of that area.
@NJCoin said:
Whitman keeps going back to Baltimore because they probably have long term contracts with the convention >center, and because they still do enough business for it to work economically for them. Not because Baltimore has >not declined precipitously over the past 10 or so years, because it has. And not because attendance is as robust as >it once was, because it isn't.
You wonder if they will try for a safer, mid-Atlantic region location....maybe Delaware ? Virginia ? Carolinas ?
@lkenefic said:
FWIW... I've been going to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore since the 1990s. I think a more accurate timeline for why >businesses have pulled out of the Harborplace and Pavilion area starts with the economic meltdown in 2008 but >really started a downhill slide after the Freddy Gray riots in April 2015. Requiring the National Guard to be present >essentially as an occupying force isn't a great look for downtown. Two years later, 2017, was the murder of a BPD >detective about to testify against the Gun Trace Task Force... a subsequent investigation culminating in a Consent >Decree for BPD to continue operations. Fast forward now six years and four Police Chiefs later there's been no >consistency in law enforcement. In 2019 into 2020-2022 was the Pandemic and all tourist destinations that have lots >of restaurants geared towards dining in got crushed. I was surprised to still see Cheesecake Factory still in business >as well as Hard Rock Cafe. Phillips Seafood is also still open. Most other businesses have folded... with all the other >businesses around and The National Aquarium, the Science Center, several museums and Little Italy also closeby, > >there's a huge financial incentive to invest in revitalization of that area.
"The Doom Loop" is real.
Crime leads to businesses and wealthier citizens leaving regardless of political affiliation or love for the area....getting robbed or mugged or even killed is something most people try to avoid ...this exodus leads to other businesses leaving....property values decline....tax base erodes....HIGHER taxes are needed to keep the level of spending the pols have become addicted to....this leads to MORE businesses and individuals leaving...eventually, like a Black Hole at war with gravity and nuclear fusion, something has to give.
Bankrutpcies are coming for many cities and even some states.
@NJCoin said:
Whitman keeps going back to Baltimore because they probably have long term contracts with the convention >center, and because they still do enough business for it to work economically for them. Not because Baltimore has >not declined precipitously over the past 10 or so years, because it has. And not because attendance is as robust as >it once was, because it isn't.
You wonder if they will try for a safer, mid-Atlantic region location....maybe Delaware ? Virginia ? Carolinas ?
Yeah, I just don't think there is any. They have lots of challenges, as does the ANA. The location has to be tax friendly to dealers, proximate to a major airport, and willing to host a coin show, which is neither huge, nor consisting of big spenders.
That knocks out just about every attractive location in the country that does not already host a coin show on a regular basis. Philadelphia was popular with collectors, but the organizers HATED dealing with the unions, who made things unnecessarily difficult and expensive, so Whitman swore it off around 10 years ago now.
I just don't think there is a good alternative to Baltimore in the mid-Atlantic. They'll milk it as long as they can, and it will be interesting to see what they do if and when Baltimore becomes so intolerable that people stop going.
@NJCoin said:
I just don't think there is a good alternative to Baltimore in the mid-Atlantic. They'll milk it as long as they can, and >it will be interesting to see what they do if and when Baltimore becomes so intolerable that people stop going.
What about the suburbs like Owings Mills or something like that ?
@NJCoin said:
I just don't think there is a good alternative to Baltimore in the mid-Atlantic. They'll milk it as long as they can, and >it will be interesting to see what they do if and when Baltimore becomes so intolerable that people stop going.
What about the suburbs like Owings Mills or something like that ?
I am not familiar with them. Do they have large convention spaces?
Not trying to get into an endless debate, and the only axe to grind for me is that I am within 50 miles of the Baltimore location so is more convenient (but not enough so that I can manage ordinary Friday opening dates so am relegated to early Saturdays).
I really do not get how people have the impression that this location is dangerous or sub-par, though this makes no claims for neighborhoods AWAY from the convention. I have not seen anything untoward nor experienced anything remotely dangerous or scary and as I have mentioned noted this the case when bringing my numismatist buddy along who is handicapped and now had TWO hip replacements. He is very slow moving and would I suppose make him or us a target.
One can park in the adjacent hotel with a walkway to the convention center or as I tend to do (for cheaper) kitty corner not even a block away. The streets are well patrolled and frankly could not be safer.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@lkenefic said:
FWIW... I've been going to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore since the 1990s. I think a more accurate timeline for why >businesses have pulled out of the Harborplace and Pavilion area starts with the economic meltdown in 2008 but >really started a downhill slide after the Freddy Gray riots in April 2015. Requiring the National Guard to be present >essentially as an occupying force isn't a great look for downtown. Two years later, 2017, was the murder of a BPD >detective about to testify against the Gun Trace Task Force... a subsequent investigation culminating in a Consent >Decree for BPD to continue operations. Fast forward now six years and four Police Chiefs later there's been no >consistency in law enforcement. In 2019 into 2020-2022 was the Pandemic and all tourist destinations that have lots >of restaurants geared towards dining in got crushed. I was surprised to still see Cheesecake Factory still in business >as well as Hard Rock Cafe. Phillips Seafood is also still open. Most other businesses have folded... with all the other >businesses around and The National Aquarium, the Science Center, several museums and Little Italy also closeby, > >there's a huge financial incentive to invest in revitalization of that area.
"The Doom Loop" is real.
Crime leads to businesses and wealthier citizens leaving regardless of political affiliation or love for the area....getting robbed or mugged or even killed is something most people try to avoid ...this exodus leads to other businesses leaving....property values decline....tax base erodes....HIGHER taxes are needed to keep the level of spending the pols have become addicted to....this leads to MORE businesses and individuals leaving...eventually, like a Black Hole at war with gravity and nuclear fusion, something has to give.
Bankrutpcies are coming for many cities and even some states.
There are definitely some places where the "Doom Loop" as you say, is real... Camden NJ, Mark Zuckerberg and $100M investment in education could only move test scores about 1% and the City is still struggling... ditto Newark. But there are some definite success stories along the way. Remember what Times Square NYC looked like in the 1970's? How about South Beach in Miami or the area near The Alamo in San Antonio (it's now a UNESCO World Heritage site). Concerted efforts at economic investment in these cities and promoting their rich histories can, and do, pay off in the long run.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
** Concerted efforts at economic investment in these cities and promoting their rich histories can, and do, pay off in the long run.**
I remember hanging out with University of Cincinnati friends back in the 1980’s and seeing the urban blight known as the Over-the-Rhine district, and warned to stay away. It was later the scene of multiple riots.
Now I’m told that revitalization and gentrification has taken place, and now it’s full of trendy bars, restaurants, and hipsters. That being the case I’ll probably still stay away, but at least it’s not dangerous anymore.
@lkenefic said:
FWIW... I've been going to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore since the 1990s. I think a more accurate timeline for why >businesses have pulled out of the Harborplace and Pavilion area starts with the economic meltdown in 2008 but >really started a downhill slide after the Freddy Gray riots in April 2015. Requiring the National Guard to be present >essentially as an occupying force isn't a great look for downtown. Two years later, 2017, was the murder of a BPD >detective about to testify against the Gun Trace Task Force... a subsequent investigation culminating in a Consent >Decree for BPD to continue operations. Fast forward now six years and four Police Chiefs later there's been no >consistency in law enforcement. In 2019 into 2020-2022 was the Pandemic and all tourist destinations that have lots >of restaurants geared towards dining in got crushed. I was surprised to still see Cheesecake Factory still in business >as well as Hard Rock Cafe. Phillips Seafood is also still open. Most other businesses have folded... with all the other >businesses around and The National Aquarium, the Science Center, several museums and Little Italy also closeby, > >there's a huge financial incentive to invest in revitalization of that area.
"The Doom Loop" is real.
Crime leads to businesses and wealthier citizens leaving regardless of political affiliation or love for the area....getting robbed or mugged or even killed is something most people try to avoid ...this exodus leads to other businesses leaving....property values decline....tax base erodes....HIGHER taxes are needed to keep the level of spending the pols have become addicted to....this leads to MORE businesses and individuals leaving...eventually, like a Black Hole at war with gravity and nuclear fusion, something has to give.
Bankrutpcies are coming for many cities and even some states.
There are definitely some places where the "Doom Loop" as you say, is real... Camden NJ, Mark Zuckerberg and $100M investment in education could only move test scores about 1% and the City is still struggling... ditto Newark. But there are some definite success stories along the way. Remember what Times Square NYC looked like in the 1970's? How about South Beach in Miami or the area near The Alamo in San Antonio (it's now a UNESCO World Heritage site). Concerted efforts at economic investment in these cities and promoting their rich histories can, and do, pay off in the long run.
Take another look at Camden and Newark. I can't speak to what is or isn't going on in their public schools, but, like Times Square, a ton of money has been poured into real estate development and it has paid off. Camden has a thriving waterfront district, with arts, entertainment, food and drink, expensive housing, etc. Same for Newark in its downtown.
That was the story for Baltimore in the 1980s, with the convention center, aquarium, Inner Harbor and Camden Yards. 40 years later, the cycle has completed itself.
Comments
Not really the point. I like Baltimore, and I like the Whitman shows, but, face facts. Baltimore has become a huge sewer. No one should know this better than your wife from her perch in the Hopkins ER.
The area around the convention center, including Inner Harbor, went from being a vibrant tourist attraction to a desolate, depressed, intimidating toilet in a few short years. Closed storefronts literally all over the place. People loitering and up to no good literally all over the place.
Yes, Whitman and the convention center provide robust security on the premises. Beyond that you are on your own. Some people are willing to deal with it. Others don't need to, because there are other, more inviting, safer places to conduct business or go shopping for coins.
Yes, bad things happen everywhere. Still, you cannot blame people for feeling safer in Orlando than in Baltimore, because they are actually safer in Orlando than in Baltimore.
Whitman keeps going back to Baltimore because they probably have long term contracts with the convention center, and because they still do enough business for it to work economically for them. Not because Baltimore has not declined precipitously over the past 10 or so years, because it has. And not because attendance is as robust as it once was, because it isn't. 🤣😂
I didn't say the show was unsafe. I said Baltimore was a dump! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
My first coin show visit there, probably 20 years ago, I looked for the cheapest parking, which was around the football stadium. Great spot, except when I left it was dark and that was not a fun walk back. Next show I parked at the hotel across the street. Great venue, you have 3 shows a year to choose from and it couldn’t be easier to get to from Philadelphia. Other than the convention center, aquarium and inner harbor, I don’t think I would venture a block in any direction.
I met a client at the mondawmin mall a week after the 2016/17 riots. When I came back to the office, I told my boss I will never go back to Baltimore. He wasn’t surprised as I told him I would never go back to downtown Philadelphia either.
I feel sorry for Baltimore, and I have felt that way since I went to my first show there in the mid 1990s. The city built a wonderful convention center, the Inner Harbor area was a joy and the Italian area has some great restaurants. Camden Yards was a great place to go to a game, and I presume the football stadium is just as good.
The trouble is all of that sits in the middle of urban decay. Instead of being able to expand the good, the bad part has grown. Explaining why is forbidden on this board, but that’s the sad truth.
Yes. And, if you haven't been lately, Inner Harbor and the aquarium are now part of the urban decay.
It's now the convention center, Camden Yards, M&T Stadium, the Horseshoe Casino, and nothing but slum in every direction, dotted by whatever restaurants or hotels have not pulled up stakes and left, as just about all the retail and restaurants in the area have. Sure, Little Italy is still great, but it's a 20 minute dangerous walk away from the convention center after sundown.
Actually I do live in the area and have gone to shows there for more than 30 years!
This has ALWAYS been safe with no dangerous situations and many times have brought my handicapped/challenged friend along with me.
It is and always has been safe - and much safer than the shows I went to in Philly.
BTW, I am a physician and have worked ER Level I trauma AND surgery so am quite familiar. Foolish or stupid behavior can't save a dummy.
Well, just Love coins, period.
There is quite a bit of negative hyperbole in this thread that does a disservice to the city.
I actually tend to enjoy Baltimore and take long walks throughout the city - up to Old Goucher and down through Locust Point to Fort McHenry. The architecture, various monuments, and other sites make it an enjoyable place to walk around. Of course there are questionable folks and crime, but I’ve never felt unsafe, not even when walking around late at night or early morning.
The whitman expo is a good, large show and I always find some cool stuff to buy there. I would hope that the show location wouldn’t keep folks away. For me, it’s more of an attraction than a deterrence.
I know nothing about health care but thank you for your service! So I'll go out on a limb here and say (not all) but the "VAST MAJORITY" of your patients in the ER are Foolish or stupid and are in the ER because their idiots!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
*They're
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Thank you for the reality check! 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I don't know what one would call xenophobia about one's own country. While everywhere has its issues and property crime is regrettably higher than it should be, this is an absolutely ludicrous statement. I have travelled to everyone of those cities with my kids and wife (except Philly) multiple times within the last couple of years. Had a great time every time and never felt unsafe once.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I figured if you wanted to talk about people who are foolish or stupid you should do it with proper grammar so that you don't appear to be foolish or stupid. Or maybe your uninformed opinions are enough to do that regardless of your grammar.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
There’s a beauty on eBay….even has a green bean on it! Where’s my $200? 😉
Go look at my ad again….
Thank you! Nice to hear some support for a change. I just got tired of all of the fear mongering regarding the Baltimore show😉
Congratulation, you get around.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Yes, I know what you mean about grammar...........smart boy! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
There is alot of work and effort to make the Baltimore Show successful- And it has a longstanding tradition of success for those that choose to participate. And for those that choose to complain... start by choosing a different subject to complain about.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Way to deflect. Enjoy living in your bubble.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Sorry for hijacking the thread!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
This is the reason it’s best to ignore people with finder fees on coins because they have a million excuses why they won’t honor their end of the deal.
If I were a dealer that took want lists from my customers, found the coins, and then the buyers declined to purchase for the plethora of reasons given here, I’d be pissed.
I roll my eyes at scared old men more than I do vagabonds. The funny part is the scared old men are almost always the ones who swear they have the firmest grasp on perspective reality and tell it like it is but in reality they just have over active imaginations and inadequacy complexes.
The notion that inner city crime is a recent phenomenon or some how not only prolific but probable and that it is where their risks lay is daft. Bmore has its problems but you all clearly watch too much bad tv.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
“
Crime happens more in some places than others. Baltimore shows are not worth it to me anymore. Bill was correct about 2020, but the decline has been steady. Baltimore used to be relatively nice in many areas; I went to Greek Town for dinner for possibly the last time because they are losing/ have lost the neighborhood due to crime (and don’t be
2019 comments, so you are somewhat correct (it was getting bad before 2020); however while you "roll your eyes at scared old men" consider that they cannot afford to have their heads stomped or be sucker punched without a strong possibility of permanent disability or death.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g60811-d261225-r702907218-Inner_Harbor-Baltimore_Maryland.html
Anyone mention the new ownership of Whitman Publishing and of the Baltimore show?
So... Back to Coins... I did hear some banter between dealers that their classic gold sales were really sluggish. I glanced over at his table and he had what looked like one table full of $1 - $20 gold with lots of $5 pieces. I didnt check out specific coins but most appeared MS and in PCGS and NGC plastic. And a second table full of Morgan and Peace Dollars. The only gold I was looking for was an AU $3... mostly priced 25-30% above PCGS price guide for the few pieces I looked at. The other Type I wanted was a Draped Bust Half in F12 to VF20... I found a couple but we were just too far apart in price.
In hindsight, I probably should have spent some of the money I had earmarked for an additional type piece, and just given it to Tom instead...
As for the Baltimore Show in general and crime in particular, especially in the city... I'm a Baltimore city resident and I've worked downtown, within walking distance of the Convention Center, for over a decade. I can see UMMC Shock Trauma Center from my office window and I'm over at the hospital when I have students on Clinical Rotation... I've also been going to the Baltimore Whitman Coin Expo for about as long.
If we're looking at city to city variation in crime rates, it depends on where you are... and every city... at least the one's I've lived in... are going to be that way. Labeling all of "Baltimore" as being crime-ridden while you're focusing on an event at the Convention Center is like labeling all of Miami as crime ridden and saying you'd never go to South Beach because of the violent crime in Liberty City. Or shows in Chicago because of the crime in Gary, IN... For those of us that live in Baltimore, it's like saying I'd never go to the Inner Harbor because of all the violent crimes in Sandtown-Winchester. For the Hopkins Hospital folks... even I get nervous parking my car in your neighborhood.
Certainly there are those that wouldn't be caught dead entering any "city"... I grew up in towns as small as 2000 total population... and there were STILL area of town where you were told to steer clear of due to criminal activity. Since my "small town" beginning and now being a city dweller, I have the opportunity for comparison of pros and cons in living in both settings. I can unequivocally state that it depends on what you want... I also like hiking, backpacking and rock climbing.. but work and career is better where I am, and being a Clinical Microbiologist is more lucrative than rock climbing or being a mountain guide. ..at least for me. Obviously, I'm a long way from wilderness but that's the decision I made and I'm not about to denigrate the smaller towns I've lived in because they don't have an equivalency to The BMA, The Walters Art Museum, major league football and baseball teams, world class colleges and universities, or The Inner Harbor.
Anyway, I'll continue to support dealers coming to Baltimore and using the Convention Center as the venue. It offers the flexibility of never having to leave the building if you stay at the Hilton (or Marriott ?) thus relatively no interaction with Baltimore street people, or you could Uber to world class dining a few blocks away, or you could explore a city that's been a part of the American landscape since before we were a country. However, if the powers that be decide to move the show to Sandtown... probably a hard pass for me.
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I understand the area around Pimlico race track has declined. This is where the second leg of horse racings Triple Crown is.
This thread is hilarious!! I cannot remember a funnier read on here in some time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That area is horrible however I still attend horse races at Pimlico but I wouldn't walk around the surrounding neighborhoods.
Baltimore has been in the news because of recent political crime so that might be weighing on people's minds.
I have not been to the Whitman Baltimore show. The only time I have been to Baltimore was for the ANA in1985,1993 and 2008. I did not like the area back in 2008. The bottom line is: If you want to go, go. If you don't want to go, don't go. I will not be going to Baltimore unless the ANA decides to go there in the future.
It's not whether attending a show is as risky as some are led to believe?
It's whether, we feel safe enough to make the effort to go?
Perception is reality.
FWIW... I've been going to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore since the 1990s. I think a more accurate timeline for why businesses have pulled out of the Harborplace and Pavilion area starts with the economic meltdown in 2008 but really started a downhill slide after the Freddy Gray riots in April 2015. Requiring the National Guard to be present essentially as an occupying force isn't a great look for downtown. Two years later, 2017, was the murder of a BPD detective about to testify against the Gun Trace Task Force... a subsequent investigation culminating in a Consent Decree for BPD to continue operations. Fast forward now six years and four Police Chiefs later there's been no consistency in law enforcement. In 2019 into 2020-2022 was the Pandemic and all tourist destinations that have lots of restaurants geared towards dining in got crushed. I was surprised to still see Cheesecake Factory still in business as well as Hard Rock Cafe. Phillips Seafood is also still open. Most other businesses have folded... with all the other businesses around and The National Aquarium, the Science Center, several museums and Little Italy also closeby, there's a huge financial incentive to invest in revitalization of that area.
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/harborplace-initial-plans-residential-tower-retail-commercial-space/45683758
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Did anyone talk to Mr. Whitman about any updates on the release of the next Cherrypicker's edition?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
You wonder if they will try for a safer, mid-Atlantic region location....maybe Delaware ? Virginia ? Carolinas ?
"The Doom Loop" is real.
Crime leads to businesses and wealthier citizens leaving regardless of political affiliation or love for the area....getting robbed or mugged or even killed is something most people try to avoid
...this exodus leads to other businesses leaving....property values decline....tax base erodes....HIGHER taxes are needed to keep the level of spending the pols have become addicted to....this leads to MORE businesses and individuals leaving...eventually, like a Black Hole at war with gravity and nuclear fusion, something has to give.
Bankrutpcies are coming for many cities and even some states.
Yeah, I just don't think there is any. They have lots of challenges, as does the ANA. The location has to be tax friendly to dealers, proximate to a major airport, and willing to host a coin show, which is neither huge, nor consisting of big spenders.
That knocks out just about every attractive location in the country that does not already host a coin show on a regular basis. Philadelphia was popular with collectors, but the organizers HATED dealing with the unions, who made things unnecessarily difficult and expensive, so Whitman swore it off around 10 years ago now.
I just don't think there is a good alternative to Baltimore in the mid-Atlantic. They'll milk it as long as they can, and it will be interesting to see what they do if and when Baltimore becomes so intolerable that people stop going.
What about the suburbs like Owings Mills or something like that ?
I am not familiar with them. Do they have large convention spaces?
Not trying to get into an endless debate, and the only axe to grind for me is that I am within 50 miles of the Baltimore location so is more convenient (but not enough so that I can manage ordinary Friday opening dates so am relegated to early Saturdays).
I really do not get how people have the impression that this location is dangerous or sub-par, though this makes no claims for neighborhoods AWAY from the convention. I have not seen anything untoward nor experienced anything remotely dangerous or scary and as I have mentioned noted this the case when bringing my numismatist buddy along who is handicapped and now had TWO hip replacements. He is very slow moving and would I suppose make him or us a target.
One can park in the adjacent hotel with a walkway to the convention center or as I tend to do (for cheaper) kitty corner not even a block away. The streets are well patrolled and frankly could not be safer.
Well, just Love coins, period.
There are definitely some places where the "Doom Loop" as you say, is real... Camden NJ, Mark Zuckerberg and $100M investment in education could only move test scores about 1% and the City is still struggling... ditto Newark. But there are some definite success stories along the way. Remember what Times Square NYC looked like in the 1970's? How about South Beach in Miami or the area near The Alamo in San Antonio (it's now a UNESCO World Heritage site). Concerted efforts at economic investment in these cities and promoting their rich histories can, and do, pay off in the long run.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
** Concerted efforts at economic investment in these cities and promoting their rich histories can, and do, pay off in the long run.**
I remember hanging out with University of Cincinnati friends back in the 1980’s and seeing the urban blight known as the Over-the-Rhine district, and warned to stay away. It was later the scene of multiple riots.
Now I’m told that revitalization and gentrification has taken place, and now it’s full of trendy bars, restaurants, and hipsters. That being the case I’ll probably still stay away, but at least it’s not dangerous anymore.
I'm surprised there are no coin shows at the Dulles expo center near Dulles airport. It seems to be a big convention center.
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Take another look at Camden and Newark. I can't speak to what is or isn't going on in their public schools, but, like Times Square, a ton of money has been poured into real estate development and it has paid off. Camden has a thriving waterfront district, with arts, entertainment, food and drink, expensive housing, etc. Same for Newark in its downtown.
That was the story for Baltimore in the 1980s, with the convention center, aquarium, Inner Harbor and Camden Yards. 40 years later, the cycle has completed itself.