Under what circumstances does a CAC sticker add the most market value?

P0CKETCHANGE

CAC stickered coins generally sell for more than non-CAC examples, but the premium can vary significantly.

For example, the premium for a green beaned 1923 MS63 Peace Dollar is lower than on a scarce date Seated Dollar (both nominally and in percentage terms).

I’m curious what folks have observed in the areas of the market they operate in.


In which areas of the marketplace do CAC stickered coins carry the biggest premium vs. non-CAC examples?

What factors are most important in driving premiums for CAC stickered coins?

Is there a resource (paid or free) where the premiums/spreads are listed?


Please keep discussion to the quantifiable aspects of the market, if possible—opinions on whether or not you like or agree that CAC stickers should or shouldn’t add a premium isn’t relevant to my questions.

lermish

lol

Maybe:) In both of my main collections, chopmarked trade dollars and US gol, CAC stickered coins are significantly more expensive. Very small sample size but the stickered trade dollars I've sold have brought a 50-75% premium (although these are multi-hundred dollar coins, not multi-thousand). When buying and selling gold, it seems to be around a 15-20% premium but more (sometimes significantly so) for earlier gold, and less for later generic gold.

PeakRarities

In which areas of the marketplace do CAC stickered coins carry the biggest premium vs. non-CAC examples?

Early Gold, Pioneer Gold, Early federal silver, Seated coinage, Condition rarities (ie. ms67 Saints)

What factors are most important in driving premiums for CAC stickered coins?

I think it boils down to supply and demand, basically the percentage of the extant population that's even eligible for a sticker. Many of the issues I mentioned were coins that were heavily used, abused, and later "improved". Not many examples survived unmolested, with reasonably original surfaces and adequate eye appeal. This leaves a very small percentage of CAC approved coins for collectors to compete for, you may have 200 extant examples total but only 20 stickered coins.

Is there a resource (paid or free) where the premiums/spreads are listed?

Yes, the Greysheet app is the most helpful for this. It lists the CPG side by side, i'll include an example below. While CDN/CPG prices can be remarkably accurate sometimes, it's worth noting that with some of the thinly traded issues, the CAC spread is very understated. Specifically, with the pioneer issues- the CPG (retail) for my $20 Kellogg in 45cac is $10,100, but I would challenge anybody to find one for less than 14k, let alone find one at all.

pcgscacgold

I agree with @DeplorableDan I follow Early Gold and the CAC sticker comes with a considerably higher price. The premium does hold through out all gold but maybe not as much.

One does have to keep in mind that most of the time CAC stickers are on premium/high end for grade coins. Those should not be priced the same as mid-level or low end material. The question is how much premium is too much. I guess the market decides.

pursuitofliberty

@DeplorableDan makes good points, as always.

I'm not sure I agree completely with where the most "value" is added.

To me it would be a popular series, and a rarer date, such as within the Morgan Dollar, Walking Lib' or maybe the Saints. Something like that.

When the next grade up is multiples in price, or doesn't exist (think very close to Condition Census - or tied with others for that perch), and the beans are not common at that grade and for that date and issue, the bean would probably add the most value. I think at that point many will look at the coin (right or wrong) as close to the next grade up and the price will then tend to escalate accordingly.

My 2c

Cougar1978

Get the CDN app (has auc drill down too) and you will be able to research what CPG is for CAC material and draw your own conclusions. Or you could buy / subscribe the CDN CAC Market review / CAC Pricing Magazine. That way see big pic overview for a series or type.

Generally higher graded material coupled with low pop reflect the highest premiums IMO. Key coins too. However if bid war in auction can exceed that. Just junk the generalizations and have that info in your phone like I do.

If you own, have considerable CAC you should get the CPG data. CPG is a Mkt price guide based on CDN Bid.

TomB

As a percentage or absolute dollars? I might have missed it, but did not notice that distinction in the OP and without it the conversation might lose much of its meaning.

PerryHall

As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

P0CKETCHANGE

@TomB said:
As a percentage or absolute dollars? I might have missed it, but did not notice that distinction in the OP and without it the conversation might lose much of its meaning.

I think the commentary would be interesting for both scenarios, so I did not specify. Feel free to make any appropriate distinctions in your reply.

DisneyFan

What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

alaura22

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

pcgscacgold

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

And I am seeing SOLD signs on those coins. Even when priced that way. Just saw one today.

alaura22

@pcgscacgold said:

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

And I am seeing SOLD signs on those coins. Even when priced that way. Just saw one today.

So, what are you suggesting, that the prices are even low at double the sheet value, OR people with to much money just buying.
I'm curious to know

pcgscacgold

@alaura22 said:

@pcgscacgold said:

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

And I am seeing SOLD signs on those coins. Even when priced that way. Just saw one today.

So, what are you suggesting, that the prices are even low at double the sheet value, OR people with to much money just buying.
I'm curious to know

Not sure. In some cases maybe CAC guide has not caught up with this market where quality sells high and fast. Maybe people jump the minute they see quality come to market because there have not been a lot of good things offered. We are in a lull between Summer ANA and Winter FUN. Maybe I just collect and watch series that are active.

Pizzaman

@TomB said:
As a percentage or absolute dollars? I might have missed it, but did not notice that distinction in the OP and without it the conversation might lose much of its meaning.

The lesser the confidence in the authenticity/grade the greater the value in the CAC sticker/endorsement.

124Spider

Statistically, a CAC green sticker says that that coin is "strong for the grade." By definition, that means that it is, on average, better than an average coin of that series, date and grade, but without a CAC green sticker.

To the extent that people pay more for a nicer coin (I do), the market will value a coin with a CAC green sticker higher than a coin of the same series, date and grade, but without a CAC sticker. Yes, I know that we're supposed to buy the coin, not the holder, but the holder actually does matter.

I suspect that the CAC sticker adds a percentage over a coin of the same series, date and grade, but without the CAC sticker. So, for a common date coin not worth a lot, the "bump" for a green CAC sticker isn't much. But for a coin worth thousands of dollars, a CAC sticker will add a significant amount to the value of the coin. Which is, of course, why people pay to have them evaluated by CAC.

zer0man

Old gold.

DisneyFan

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

I'm glad you said that and not me. : )

Jacques_Loungecoque

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

This 100%. And to be clear, collectively market wide there is acceptance of increased monetary value. Individually however, some like me could care less and buy the coin, not the holder and now the sticker too. Solid grade and great eye appeal will generally incur a premium. Some need those superlatives verified by another I guess.

124Spider

@Jacques_Loungecoque said:

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

This 100%. And to be clear, collectively market wide there is acceptance of increased monetary value. Individually however, some like me could care less and buy the coin, not the holder and now the sticker too. Solid grade and great eye appeal will generally incur a premium. Some need those superlatives verified by another I guess.

The snarkiness in your last sentence really isn't necessary, and actually is just silly. Many of us buy coins based only on photos and certification. As any "GTG" thread here illustrates, guessing the grade based on internet photos is a crapshoot. So, yes, many of us "need those superlatives verified by another." Sheesh....

alaura22

@DisneyFan said:

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

I'm glad you said that and not me. : )

Dealers can put any amount they want for their coins, doesn't mean someone will buy them.

Jacques_Loungecoque

@124Spider said:

@Jacques_Loungecoque said:

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

This 100%. And to be clear, collectively market wide there is acceptance of increased monetary value. Individually however, some like me could care less and buy the coin, not the holder and now the sticker too. Solid grade and great eye appeal will generally incur a premium. Some need those superlatives verified by another I guess.

The snarkiness in your last sentence really isn't necessary, and actually is just silly. Many of us buy coins based only on photos and certification. As any "GTG" thread here illustrates, guessing the grade based on internet photos is a crapshoot. So, yes, many of us "need those superlatives verified by another." Sheesh....

I recommend you read the first word of the last sentence that sooooo offends you. It says “some.” Not all. Some. More proof that reading comprehension is a lost skill. Or perhaps, you’re wearing your insecurity on your sleeve and proving my point. Thanks for that!

124Spider

@Jacques_Loungecoque said:

@124Spider said:

@Jacques_Loungecoque said:

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

This 100%. And to be clear, collectively market wide there is acceptance of increased monetary value. Individually however, some like me could care less and buy the coin, not the holder and now the sticker too. Solid grade and great eye appeal will generally incur a premium. Some need those superlatives verified by another I guess.

The snarkiness in your last sentence really isn't necessary, and actually is just silly. Many of us buy coins based only on photos and certification. As any "GTG" thread here illustrates, guessing the grade based on internet photos is a crapshoot. So, yes, many of us "need those superlatives verified by another." Sheesh....

I recommend you read the first word of the last sentence that sooooo offends you. It says “some.” Not all. Some. More proof that reading comprehension is a lost skill. Or perhaps, you’re wearing your insecurity on your sleeve and proving my point. Thanks for that!

Wow, you just keep digging! So, in your "mind," it's ok to insult people in this hobby who have done nothing wrong, so long as you're only insulting "some" people?

As far as "reading comprehension" goes, I suggest you read your own words, as well as what I wrote; there's nothing in my response to suggest that I didn't notice that you only insulted "some" people; my response was suggesting that insulting "some" people is uncalled for.

But it's clear that you disagree, and believe that insulting people is a good way to behave. So I'll just put you on ignore. I do thank you for making that decision easy.

Walkerlover

@124Spider said:
Statistically, a CAC green sticker says that that coin is "strong for the grade." By definition, that means that it is, on average, better than an average coin of that series, date and grade, but without a CAC green sticker.

To the extent that people pay more for a nicer coin (I do), the market will value a coin with a CAC green sticker higher than a coin of the same series, date and grade, but without a CAC sticker. Yes, I know that we're supposed to buy the coin, not the holder, but the holder actually does matter.

I suspect that the CAC sticker adds a percentage over a coin of the same series, date and grade, but without the CAC sticker. So, for a common date coin not worth a lot, the "bump" for a green CAC sticker isn't much. But for a coin worth thousands of dollars, a CAC sticker will add a significant amount to the value of the coin. Which is, of course, why people pay to have them evaluated by CAC.

.

Elcontador1

I think It has the largest impact in areas where CAC stickered coins in a desired grade are scarce, and there's quite a bit of demand for said coins. You can apply that across the board.

skier07

Older gold coins and Seated Liberty Dollars

Cougar1978

Are they paying the extra money for the CAC / CACG material? How have they been doing selling them off the Bay or Show circuit?

In terms of MV for them I refer to the CDN CAC CPG.

Cougar1978

Better date and low pop premiums way up there …..obviously higher premiums. Got the pocket? Have $500k buying cash? One guy setup next to me scoffing them up for his cases at shows “I just pay up (auc, bourse at shows) for them then just price at keystone (cost x 2). Hungry for CACG. Want to have most in bourse room.”

ProofCollection

@Jacques_Loungecoque said:

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

This 100%. And to be clear, collectively market wide there is acceptance of increased monetary value. Individually however, some like me could care less and buy the coin, not the holder and now the sticker too. Solid grade and great eye appeal will generally incur a premium. Some need those superlatives verified by another I guess.

But it's not that per-se.
Objectively, a CAC sticker adds liquidity and coins with stickers have a larger market as there are CAC-only buyers who will not buy non-CAC coins. There are probably many who will buy CAC coins sight unseen at full price. The added liquidity is really the source of the value. In other words, because more buyers have more confidence in the coin, the pool of buyers and competition is greater for these coins which results in higher prices

Relaxn

Old gold with old holders and green beana appear to garnering the biggest $ jump compared to auction history/book
Think that, in part, correlates to the Fairmont collections hitting the market.
In the last 3 years gold demand, for MANY reasons has escalated to all time levels. Now add Fairmont coins, Bass collections, and I am certain other Gold collections hitting the market and we have ultimate demand and that green bean helps fuel it.

CAC filled a demand... acting, in part, as a checks and balance to the inconsistency of TPG's.
CAC also fills a hole when the numismatists for auction houses are too busy or find other reasons to not review coina for you. The TPG with CAC adds a layer of protection.

Off topic a bit but c'est la vie.

alaura22

@Relaxn said:

CAC filled a demand... acting, in part, as a checks and balance to the inconsistency of TPG's.

Spot On!

Cougar1978

@pcgscacgold said:

@alaura22 said:

@pcgscacgold said:

@alaura22 said:

@DisneyFan said:
What I have noticed is some retail dealers have asking prices higher than the CAC Price guide.

Now that's an understatement................some dealers are asking double if not more!

And I am seeing SOLD signs on those coins. Even when priced that way. Just saw one today.

So, what are you suggesting, that the prices are even low at double the sheet value, OR people with to much money just buying.
I'm curious to know

Not sure. In some cases maybe CAC guide has not caught up with this market where quality sells high and fast. Maybe people jump the minute they see quality come to market because there have not been a lot of good things offered. We are in a lull between Summer ANA and Winter FUN. Maybe I just collect and watch series that are active.

Where u have a lot of rich collector bidders - bid war. I Don’t think the CPG CAC price guide too low. I guess some with lots of money to burn bid them up. But when u pay high be ready to lose big. Especially when the bubble bursts. This happened in the 89 crash and can happen again.

Walkerlover

The truth is some common coins in GC auctions have brought 2 or 3 times the price of non CAC coins. As an example a 1943 MS 66 Lincoln sells for about $40-60 on EBay without a CAC sticker but has brought $150-250 with a sticker. A 1937 Buffalo MS 66 CAC sold for $199 at GC but can be bought for $100 in the market, and there are many more examples I can show to prove my point.

Project Numismatics

@Cougar1978 said:
Better date and low pop premiums way up there …..obviously higher premiums. Got the pocket? Have $500k buying cash? One guy setup next to me scoffing them up for his cases at shows “I just pay up (auc, bourse at shows) for them then just price at keystone (cost x 2). Hungry for CACG. Want to have most in bourse room.”

Your bourse neighbor pays high retail at auction or at shows for CACG and then marks it up at 100%?

How many buyers out there will pay double for a coin that sold the previous month at a major auction? That’s a sign of a very dislocated market.

I think the novelty of CACG will wear off and pricing will settle down to CAC sticker levels sometime in 2024. Hope your buddy doesn’t get buried!

PeakRarities

@Project Numismatics said:

@Cougar1978 said:
Better date and low pop premiums way up there …..obviously higher premiums. Got the pocket? Have $500k buying cash? One guy setup next to me scoffing them up for his cases at shows “I just pay up (auc, bourse at shows) for them then just price at keystone (cost x 2). Hungry for CACG. Want to have most in bourse room.”

Your bourse neighbor pays high retail at auction or at shows for CACG and then marks it up at 100%?

How many buyers out there will pay double for a coin that sold the previous month at a major auction? That’s a sign of a very dislocated market.

I think the novelty of CACG will wear off and pricing will settle down to CAC sticker levels sometime in 2024. Hope your buddy doesn’t get buried!

I highly doubt anyone is buying coins out of auction at retail, and marking them up 100%. At least not with any success. I wouldn't put too much stock in Cougar's ramblings, most of us tend to ignore them for the most part.

oih82w8

I would imagine that if there were three coins in a particular grade and variety, and one was CAC'd while the other two were not, that could pose an opportunity for financial gain. Just an example.

BryceM

It adds the most value (and liquidity) when small differences in grade equate to large differences in value.

CoinFacts values for a 1928-S Peace dollar:
In MS64+ = $3,800
In MS65 = $22,500

If the MS65 coin isn't "all there" you can probably buy it for $15k. A really nice MS65 with a CAC sticker will bring north of $25K. A "so-so" 1928-S with a CAC sticker will still be a $20k coin, as many buyers feel "safe" with the little green sticker.

But, differences like this existed before slabs and stickers too. Nice coins sell for more. How you identify them is up to you.

GoldFinger1969

@PerryHall said:
As others have mentioned, a CAC sticker adds the most value for those coins where there's a BIG jump in value at the next higher grade. For a coin such as a common date Saint in MS61, a green CAC sticker adds very little value since the next higher grade of MS62 is worth very close to what the MS61 is worth.

I watch the inflection point in pricing on common and non-common Saints between MS-66 and M-67 pretty closely.

It now appears that both the "+" and CAC sticker are no longer dragging the price of a plain MS-66 upward a ton to close a huge part of the gap to the MS-67 price. In other words, the market no longer expects these coins to automatically get the 1-grade increment that will greatly increase the price.

I see lots of MS-66's not getting any bids because the sellers assume the coin will grade MS-67 because of CAC and/or "+" but folks realize if the coin hasn't gotten the 67 by now, it is not likely to ever.

Cougar1978

Consensus between me and 4 friends in the biz is offer no more than 70 pct CAC CPG beyond that no interest. Jimmy bought 4 CACG generic Morgan Dollars (display for his table at shows) having pay thru the nose (auctions). Wrote them off to advertising expense and asking cost plus 25 pct. At recent show got counter offers told them “no that price lowest consignor will go.” He does not plan to buy any more. He says “ now let’s see if they pay the money (his price).”

Will the CACG coins have a seperate MV line in CDN vs stickered once it all shakes out after a year? Everybody knows If there is a market crash the holder game will sink with it. I am looking for what I can buy right not be high buyer in some holder game. When a crash comes the more they buried in it the deeper they sink.

may

When they’re there.