I can’t see into the future although it looks like the past is creeping up on us. I like silver and the flowing hair and the modern gold Mercury dime ,
Walking Liberty Half and standing liberty quarter in gold (2016 ) . But it’s like no direction with these special remakes today. Just the same; recycling is cool.
@TomB said:
I'm not sure I'm loving it. I mean, the originals are superb, but these super clean, computer produced images make me think the new US Mint pieces will look more like silver rounds than true classics. Why can't/couldn't they employ sculptors or other quality artists to give these a truly "handmade" feel?
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Can the Mint Director unilaterally pick an old-school medal artist -- without a lengthy selection process?
I'd love to see someone like Heidi Wastweet get the job.
.
Heidi Wastweet is an excellent sculptor, as evidenced by the video and her other work. Most artists are going to be better at some things than they are at others. Her best work is the original designs that she does using clay and plaster. Her specialty is not really replicating existing medallic work, such as her "1964" Peace Dollar obverse (image from her website):
The US Mint rendition of the 2024 Flowing Hair may appear somewhat sterile, but it is accurate (except for the broad flat rims and apparent higher relief). Modern technology is what will achieve accuracy. I wrote my own digital sculpting software that I utilized to make all my issues, including this Die Pair 9 "1964-D" Peace over-strike:
Here is a sculpt that I worked on several months ago for the Flowing Hair obverse (I will get back to it eventually):
@TomB said:
I'm not sure I'm loving it. I mean, the originals are superb, but these super clean, computer produced images make me think the new US Mint pieces will look more like silver rounds than true classics. Why can't/couldn't they employ sculptors or other quality artists to give these a truly "handmade" feel?
This is how I feel about the old/new Peace dollar comparisons. There is just something about the originals that can't be replicated.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
I like the concept. I am however not happy that the silver issue will be a medal and not a true coin. The mint should stop doing these work arounds and simply find a sponsor in Congress to get them made legit. A lot of us don’t do medals. We want “coins!!!!!!!”
@PerryHall said:
It's just a glorified one ounce silver round if it doesn't show a denomination on the edge like the originals had.
I agree the silver version, being just a Medal, will hurt sales to some extent, since it's not a coin. The gold version will be a coin, as it's authorized by Congress.
Two years ago, I bought the below item from limitedmintage.com (Intaglio Mint), as mentioned by others. It's 2 oz. of .999 silver, with a diameter of 39 mm, which is perfect. It's roughly 1/4 inch thick, which I find attractive. Yes, technically it's a "round" and not a Medal, but to me, I don't care!
If the U.S. Mint were making a silver "coin" next year, I'd buy that. But as a Medal, I won't, as the item below fully meets my needs. If I hadn't bought the item below two years ago, I'd still buy that now instead of the new Mint silver medal in 2024. As you can see, both the obverse and reverse are virtually identical between next years 1 oz. Mint medal and the item shown below!
My understanding is that one oz. silver medal from the Mint will cost about $82 plus shipping. The 2 oz. .999 silver item below only costs about $63 or so, plus reasonable shipping!
I can understand many of us not buying either one. But I have trouble understanding why one would buy the Mint Medal instead of the item shown below?
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven I also have that 2 oz round along with about 10 others they have done (they sell out fast when offered). The workmanship is great. To me, the one you posted is far better compared to the US Mint offering. There is something about the look of the US Mint version that doesn't look right.
@TomB said:
I'm not sure I'm loving it. I mean, the originals are superb, but these super clean, computer produced images make me think the new US Mint pieces will look more like silver rounds than true classics. Why can't/couldn't they employ sculptors or other quality artists to give these a truly "handmade" feel?
You hit the nail on the head
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
I sold my Jefferson's Liberty First Spouse $10 because I thought the design was not nearly as good as the original Scot Draped Bust half cent, which the design was taken from. I believe most of the U.S. Mint coin and medal working dies are over finished and too smooth, probably for coining (striking) reasons. Classic U.S. Mint coinage has more chiseled features and better appearance than the modern CNC created dies.
I like the decision to re-create the Flowing Hair dollar as a medal, but I hope the Mint puts more emphasis on engraving in a similar form as the original. I know the Mint has artists with the talent to do this including Chief Engraver Joseph Menna, they need to see the design through to the working dies and coining.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Nysoto said:
I sold my Jefferson's Liberty First Spouse $10 because I thought the design was not nearly as good as the original Scot Draped Bust half cent, which the design was taken from. I believe most of the U.S. Mint coin and medal working dies are over finished and too smooth, probably for coining (striking) reasons. Classic U.S. Mint coinage has more chiseled features and better appearance than the modern CNC created dies.
I like the decision to re-create the Flowing Hair dollar as a medal, but I hope the Mint puts more emphasis on engraving in a similar form as the original. I know the Mint has artists with the talent to do this including Chief Engraver Joseph Menna, they need to see the design through to the working dies and coining.
.
Nobody at the US Mint has done actual engraving in a long time. For many decades now, US Mint sculptors have only created sculpted reliefs in clay/plaster and/or digitally. I am not certtain, but I think Menna's work at the US Mint has been entirely digital.
Note that CNC machining will render what is in the digital sculpt, and nothing else. So if there are deficiencies in the final product, that is due to what is in the sculpt and not generally the CNC machining. A die made via a reduction lathe from a physical galvano can have the same issues as a digital/CNC die.
A hand-engraved die can have certain desirable attributes. But it can also have undesirable deviations from the image that the engraving is attempting to capture.
Nobody at the US Mint has done actual engraving in a long time. For many decades now, US Mint sculptors have only created sculpted reliefs in clay/plaster and/or digitally. I am not certtain, but I think Menna's work at the US Mint has been entirely digital. Note that CNC machining will render what is in the digital sculpt, and nothing else. So if there are deficiencies in the final product, that is due to what is in the sculpt and not generally the CNC machining. A die made via a reduction lathe from a physical galvano can have the same issues as a digital/CNC die.
I also believe Menna's Mint work has been digital sculpting, although he has extensive education and training in art history and traditional sculpture.
The CNC machining will render the digital sculpt. I worked in tooling at Boeing for 36 years, including various forms of forging dies, which are machined from a dataset, not unlike a digital sculpture. The final step is deburring and polishing to the spec finish, which could be rough deburr, a finer machine polish, or even hand polish in less common case of finishing to a +/-.0005 tolerance.
That is where the problem lies IMO with Mint coinage including proofs and other NCLT. The dies are finished by tool makers, not artists, and are over polished as to leave no sharp definition. That is understandable for circulating coinage, but for NCLT I know they can do better. It is not the die makers fault as they are working to a spec, it is caused by a process that does not include "they [digi sculptor/engraver] need to see the design through to the working dies and coining."
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
It's a nonpolitical classic design. Whether the dies are finished a certain way or another, I can't complain. Beggars can't be choosers.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
@jacrispies said:
It's a nonpolitical classic design. Whether the dies are finished a certain way or another, I can't complain. Beggars can't be choosers.
This was basically my outlook when I first opened this thread. The execution will probably leave much to be desired, but at the end of the day its better than the PC oriented themes the mint has been churning out as of late. It would be great if they incorporate methods that would give them a classic feel, without the 60 grit finish of the new Morgan and Peace, but I'm not holding my breath.
@SPalladino said:
...not mentioned in the article was intended finish. Recent Liberty coins/medals have had a proof finish. Please, no >on a proof finish for this issue.
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How about a matte proof finish for the silver medal?
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
...not mentioned in the article was intended finish. Recent Liberty coins/medals have had a proof finish. Please, no on a proof finish for this issue.
.
How about a matte proof finish for the silver medal?
.
For this issue, I would likely buy it even if a standard proof finish...a sorta "you'll eat whatever we put on the table" thing. But I will like some finishes more than others, and would like a standard proof finish the very least.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Will the silver coin also show the original edge lettering?
The CW article specifically states that the Au coin will have the "inscribed denomination", but says nothing about the silver medal. To me, this implies that the current 'plan' is no.
Per the CW article in the OP:
"To honor the original, the Mint will follow the same minimal inscriptions on the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar coin on both the silver medal and gold coin."
I cannot answer your question. But, I can share some info about the "candidate designs" that the CCAC reviewed during their 11/28/23 meeting.
The CCAC posted a YT video of this meeting. Link. The portion about the 'Flowing Hair' items starts at 1:51:49.
This same issue will come up with the 2026 best of the mint coins too like the Gobrecht, Flying Eagle, Saint Gaudens High Relief etc. If In God We Trust and E Pluribus Unum aren't required on bullion coins, that's a game changer (something I support).
Also, why does it have the very wide rim and a high-relief basin effect. They should lower the relief and flatten out the fields, as well as engraving the dies a bit more like circulation strikes and less like a polished specimen.
Cheers, and God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
There's something reassuring about die file lines, A little gouge here or there. And using the third side is a must. Come on, let's get analog and use those digits and opposing thumb to make a great coin. Faukrissake!
They did a good job on the Peace dollar issue, looks like they have some sales people with some brains and motivation at the mint which has become a big profit operation.
Biggest flop in my opionion, the small gold slug remake of the uber popular 1907/2007 HR $20.
@Liquidated said: Would love to see this come higher relief. People wanting die lines, gouges, flattening are killing it.
Per the 11/28/23 CCAC meeting, the current plan is:
~ gold coin in "high relief";
~ silver medal in "low relief";
~ and, "very much like" the 'American Liberty' program in terms of relief dimensions and planchets.
@Liquidated said: Would love to see this come higher relief. People wanting die lines, gouges, flattening are killing it.
Per the 11/28/23 CCAC meeting, the current plan is:
~ gold coin in "high relief";
~ silver medal in "low relief";
~ and, "very much like" the 'American Liberty' program in terms of relief dimensions and planchets.
The relevant portion starts at 2:00:10.
Edited for clarity.
I thought towards the end it was requested for two designs to later vote on?
@Liquidated said:
I thought towards the end it was requested for two designs to later vote on?
As I understand it, the CCAC considered two candidate designs at their 11/28/23 meeting:
~ original render, faithful to the 1794 coin;
~ and, revised render that incorporated alignment changes requested by the CFA.
They voted to recommend the "original" design. The portion of the video that starts with a recap of the motion, and subsequent vote, starts at 2:12:45.
Comments
Can anyone explain the 15 stars?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
There were 15 states in 1794 (13 original colonies and VT and KY).
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I’m in for the uniqueness and type.
I will only get the medal if offered in MS. Not interested in proof.
$1794
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I can’t see into the future although it looks like the past is creeping up on us. I like silver and the flowing hair and the modern gold Mercury dime ,
Walking Liberty Half and standing liberty quarter in gold (2016 ) . But it’s like no direction with these special remakes today. Just the same; recycling is cool.
Will be buying these from the mint. Be nice if they were hand-engraved,similar to what the Gallery Mint did 20+ years ago.
hmmm. they edge lettered the pucks without a lettered collar. i think they could squeeze it on an ase blank castaing style.
Particularly the "pineapple eagle." Or is it the "hand grenade eagle"?
.
You could always carry it as a pocket piece along with your keys
.
.
Heidi Wastweet is an excellent sculptor, as evidenced by the video and her other work. Most artists are going to be better at some things than they are at others. Her best work is the original designs that she does using clay and plaster. Her specialty is not really replicating existing medallic work, such as her "1964" Peace Dollar obverse (image from her website):
The US Mint rendition of the 2024 Flowing Hair may appear somewhat sterile, but it is accurate (except for the broad flat rims and apparent higher relief). Modern technology is what will achieve accuracy. I wrote my own digital sculpting software that I utilized to make all my issues, including this Die Pair 9 "1964-D" Peace over-strike:
Here is a sculpt that I worked on several months ago for the Flowing Hair obverse (I will get back to it eventually):
This is how I feel about the old/new Peace dollar comparisons. There is just something about the originals that can't be replicated.
I’d be in for an entire proof or specimen remake set of the period.
I agree the silver version, being just a Medal, will hurt sales to some extent, since it's not a coin. The gold version will be a coin, as it's authorized by Congress.
Two years ago, I bought the below item from limitedmintage.com (Intaglio Mint), as mentioned by others. It's 2 oz. of .999 silver, with a diameter of 39 mm, which is perfect. It's roughly 1/4 inch thick, which I find attractive. Yes, technically it's a "round" and not a Medal, but to me, I don't care!
If the U.S. Mint were making a silver "coin" next year, I'd buy that. But as a Medal, I won't, as the item below fully meets my needs. If I hadn't bought the item below two years ago, I'd still buy that now instead of the new Mint silver medal in 2024. As you can see, both the obverse and reverse are virtually identical between next years 1 oz. Mint medal and the item shown below!
My understanding is that one oz. silver medal from the Mint will cost about $82 plus shipping. The 2 oz. .999 silver item below only costs about $63 or so, plus reasonable shipping!
I can understand many of us not buying either one. But I have trouble understanding why one would buy the Mint Medal instead of the item shown below?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@winesteven I also have that 2 oz round along with about 10 others they have done (they sell out fast when offered). The workmanship is great. To me, the one you posted is far better compared to the US Mint offering. There is something about the look of the US Mint version that doesn't look right.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
You hit the nail on the head
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
I sold my Jefferson's Liberty First Spouse $10 because I thought the design was not nearly as good as the original Scot Draped Bust half cent, which the design was taken from. I believe most of the U.S. Mint coin and medal working dies are over finished and too smooth, probably for coining (striking) reasons. Classic U.S. Mint coinage has more chiseled features and better appearance than the modern CNC created dies.
I like the decision to re-create the Flowing Hair dollar as a medal, but I hope the Mint puts more emphasis on engraving in a similar form as the original. I know the Mint has artists with the talent to do this including Chief Engraver Joseph Menna, they need to see the design through to the working dies and coining.
.
Nobody at the US Mint has done actual engraving in a long time. For many decades now, US Mint sculptors have only created sculpted reliefs in clay/plaster and/or digitally. I am not certtain, but I think Menna's work at the US Mint has been entirely digital.
Note that CNC machining will render what is in the digital sculpt, and nothing else. So if there are deficiencies in the final product, that is due to what is in the sculpt and not generally the CNC machining. A die made via a reduction lathe from a physical galvano can have the same issues as a digital/CNC die.
A hand-engraved die can have certain desirable attributes. But it can also have undesirable deviations from the image that the engraving is attempting to capture.
.
I'm thinking the cupped field on the obverse is one problem
@dcarr said
I also believe Menna's Mint work has been digital sculpting, although he has extensive education and training in art history and traditional sculpture.
The CNC machining will render the digital sculpt. I worked in tooling at Boeing for 36 years, including various forms of forging dies, which are machined from a dataset, not unlike a digital sculpture. The final step is deburring and polishing to the spec finish, which could be rough deburr, a finer machine polish, or even hand polish in less common case of finishing to a +/-.0005 tolerance.
That is where the problem lies IMO with Mint coinage including proofs and other NCLT. The dies are finished by tool makers, not artists, and are over polished as to leave no sharp definition. That is understandable for circulating coinage, but for NCLT I know they can do better. It is not the die makers fault as they are working to a spec, it is caused by a process that does not include "they [digi sculptor/engraver] need to see the design through to the working dies and coining."
It's a nonpolitical classic design. Whether the dies are finished a certain way or another, I can't complain. Beggars can't be choosers.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
This was basically my outlook when I first opened this thread. The execution will probably leave much to be desired, but at the end of the day its better than the PC oriented themes the mint has been churning out as of late. It would be great if they incorporate methods that would give them a classic feel, without the 60 grit finish of the new Morgan and Peace, but I'm not holding my breath.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
.
How about a matte proof finish for the silver medal?
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
.
For this issue, I would likely buy it even if a standard proof finish...a sorta "you'll eat whatever we put on the table" thing. But I will like some finishes more than others, and would like a standard proof finish the very least.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
It will be comparable to what the liberty coin/medal sold for this year.
But is that legal? @Casabrown
I cannot answer your question. But, I can share some info about the "candidate designs" that the CCAC reviewed during their 11/28/23 meeting.
The CCAC posted a YT video of this meeting. Link. The portion about the 'Flowing Hair' items starts at 1:51:49.
This same issue will come up with the 2026 best of the mint coins too like the Gobrecht, Flying Eagle, Saint Gaudens High Relief etc. If In God We Trust and E Pluribus Unum aren't required on bullion coins, that's a game changer (something I support).
Also, why does it have the very wide rim and a high-relief basin effect. They should lower the relief and flatten out the fields, as well as engraving the dies a bit more like circulation strikes and less like a polished specimen.
Cheers, and God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
There's something reassuring about die file lines, A little gouge here or there. And using the third side is a must. Come on, let's get analog and use those digits and opposing thumb to make a great coin. Faukrissake!
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
They did a good job on the Peace dollar issue, looks like they have some sales people with some brains and motivation at the mint which has become a big profit operation.
Biggest flop in my opionion, the small gold slug remake of the uber popular 1907/2007 HR $20.
Is there any info on the other classic designs proposed in the survey? As to which ones made the cut?
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
Would love to see this come higher relief. People wanting die lines, gouges, flattening are killing it.
Per the 11/28/23 CCAC meeting, the current plan is:
~ gold coin in "high relief";
~ silver medal in "low relief";
~ and, "very much like" the 'American Liberty' program in terms of relief dimensions and planchets.
The relevant portion starts at 2:00:10.
Edited for clarity.
I thought towards the end it was requested for two designs to later vote on?
As I understand it, the CCAC considered two candidate designs at their 11/28/23 meeting:
~ original render, faithful to the 1794 coin;
~ and, revised render that incorporated alignment changes requested by the CFA.
They voted to recommend the "original" design. The portion of the video that starts with a recap of the motion, and subsequent vote, starts at 2:12:45.
I’m a buyer👍😎
Any updates to gold version planned finish?
.
Scheduled for release Fall 2024, presumably as a 2024 issue (230th anniversary):
https://catalog.usmint.gov/230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-gold-coin-24YG.html?cgid=2024-product-schedule
But there's no mention of its finish. I'm guessing Proof.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
I think the ‘silver round’ criticisms are right on. The basined die and the ‘apple cheeky’ Ms Liberty are not faithful to the original design.
Which is weird, because it is not rocket science to do a better job with existing technology
Why don’t they scan a high-grade 1794 original and get the design absolutely right?
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
3-D scanning, of course.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I will probably buy one. I am guessing it will be $3500.
Box of 20
Liberty with a mouth full of tobacco. Then that's just my opinion.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
What happens with In God We Trust and E Pluribus Unum, would they be omitted? I am still wondering about that?
Since these mottos are required by law, perhaps it could be added to the edge or they could just be eliminated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The edge was supposed to also imitate the original.