Sent in 20 CBH for reholder/attribute to be added to the label

Herb_T

PCGS received them on 9/27 and I will have at my home on 10/4. Great job PCGS! I am amazed at the quick turn around! I should add, 40 more on their way to PCGS.

lilolme

Glad it worked well for you. 20 that is almost my entire slabbed collection of CBH. But none attributed, except by me.

Herb_T

@lilolme said:
Glad it worked well for you. 20 that is almost my entire slabbed collection of CBH. But none attributed, except by me.

Right now I have more than 350. I am working on getting them all with attributes. It’s $45 per coin when I want them with attributes. $25 for reholder and $20 for attribute so I put a premium on getting additional coins with the attribute already on the label.

pcgscacgold

Sounds like a great collection @Herb_T . I am just starting out and agree it is nice to find them with attribute already on the label.

oih82w8

Looking gorward to some images.

I used to send my varieties in for attribution/reholder, the cost in time and money does not seem worth it anymore. I've been sending them to VSS for attribution.

Pnies20

They do well getting those done and shipped out. The few PCGS coins I sent in to get attribution were shipped out in about two weeks

Morgan13

Looking forward to some pictures!
I hope you did well.
I'm happy to hear about the fast turnaround times at PCGS. I have 8 coins in received on 9/29. I'm sure it will take a few weeks but you certainly have my optimism up!
I have one bust half but I think I am going to sell it. I need the money to fuel my Morgan addiction. I'm not sure if I should sell it on Great Collections or here on the BST.
I have posted it before. I believe it's an O-106.
It really amazing in the hand I hate to part with it. I cannot believe that a coin that's 190 years old can be so nice.
Still thinking....

ChrisH821

When did reholder become $25? I thought it was $15 last time I used it.
May as well just do a regrade at that price.

lilolme

@ChrisH821 said:
When did reholder become $25? I thought it was $15 last time I used it.
May as well just do a regrade at that price.

.
From the current pdf form. It is value dependent but the $25 is gold shield and therefore a TV also.

Herb_T

Here is one that I had as a 104, but they gave it a 104a. I checked with Steve Herrman and he had it also as a 104. The 104a is a rarity 1, while a 104 is a rarity 6. This will have to go back to be corrected.

1807 MS62 O-113a Small Stars

1811 MS62 O-109 Small 8

There is a sample…

Herb_T

@lilolme said:

@ChrisH821 said:
When did reholder become $25? I thought it was $15 last time I used it.
May as well just do a regrade at that price.

.
From the current pdf form. It is value dependent but the $25 is gold shield and therefore a TV also.

Here is the latest from the online submission…

Regular

Gold Shield which applies to many of my CBH

pursuitofliberty

Herb, As per my email tonight, Steve is correct (of course). The 1811 is a 104.2 which is not the 'a' state.

Sorry I couldn't help earlier, was on the road today.

lilolme

So what is a 104 and 104a?
To ask a little clearer question, there appears to be some changes or bad information in the Overton 3rd edition. This book states a 104 to include up to the circular crack around the right side. Then 104a have additional crack on left side star 2 to forecurl and another at star 2 into field.

Now the online Dave's bust half indicates a 104 to be no circular die crack. I would assume this would mean not even the start of it but it does note it appeared to happen quickly. Then 104a to have the circular die crack and anything beyond that.

I do have the Die State Progression book with the 104.1 .2 .3 and .4

So reading above is a 104 the 104.1 and/or 104.2 and the 104a the 104.3 or 104.4?

Let me know so I can put some notes in my Overton.
Thanks

Pnies20

@lilolme said:
So what is a 104 and 104a?
To ask a little clearer question, there appears to be some changes or bad information in the Overton 3rd edition. This book states a 104 to include up to the circular crack around the right side. Then 104a have additional crack on left side star 2 to forecurl and another at star 2 into field.

Now the online Dave's bust half indicates a 104 to be no circular die crack. I would assume this would mean not even the start of it but it does note it appeared to happen quickly. Then 104a to have the circular die crack and anything beyond that.

I do have the Die State Progression book with the 104.1 .2 .3 and .4

So reading above is a 104 the 104.1 and/or 104.2 and the 104a the 104.3 or 104.4?

Let me know so I can put some notes in my Overton.
Thanks

I don’t have my book with me but I believe the 104.1 is a true prime and the 104.2 has the beginning of the die crack over star 2 and is still considered 104.

.3 and .4 are degrees of the swirling die crack on the obverse.

Herb_T

The 104 only has a very small die crack forming and passing through star #2. See markup below..

The 104a will have a partial circular die crack on the obverse in addition to the slight crack through star #2.

pursuitofliberty

There is some confusion, even within some BHNC notes as to specific Die States sometimes.

However, for the 1811 the 104.1, 104.2 and 104.3 Die States (DS) are the O-104, with only the 104.4 DS as the O-104a.

Herb's example is a 104.2 (has the horizontal crack at S2, but none from under the bust), and is rare as such.

No sign of the next crack exists, which signifies the 104.3. That crack starts at the end of the bust and curls through the top of the 18 and eventually extending up through the right field, across the cap and to s7. That Die State is also an O-104, as described in the 3rd Edition, and is the most popular for that classification (O-104).

Only when the forward curving crack from s2-s5 and then extending to the center of the forecurl through the left field appears in any amount, will the coin be considered an O-104a. This is the descriptive crack Overton first shows as for the "a" State, as per the 3rd Edition. The statement of "Another crack from edge through upper two point of star two and into field" in the 3rd Edition description for the 'a' State is not recognized.

One more thing, remember too that in all cases the full crack or feature (chip, filled letter, etc) need not exist for the Die State (by decimal) to exist; only the positive start of said feature. For the Overton "lettered" States, the start of ANY of those features qualifies the coin as that State.

I hope this clears up this, and maybe some other questions regarding Die States.

Herb_T

Yes, what Todd said!

lilolme

@pursuitofliberty said:
There is some confusion, even within some BHNC notes as to specific Die States sometimes.

However, for the 1811 the 104.1, 104.2 and 104.3 Die States (DS) are the O-104, with only the 104.4 DS as the O-104a.

Herb's example is a 104.2 (has the horizontal crack at S2, but none from under the bust), and is rare as such.

I hope this clears up this, and maybe some other questions regarding Die States.

.
Thanks.
So I can leave my Overton alone.

But Ugh another question.

On the Rarity - Overton indicates an R1 for the 104 (defined as including 104.3).

I see Daves online and on the pcgs website (image below) that the 104 is shown as R6?. However, Daves is stating this for a 104 defined as only through 104.2.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-104-large-8.shtml
"O-104 (no die circular die crack, R6?) below, O-104a R1 at bottom."

Based on "Herb's example is a 104.2 .... and is rare as such", I am guessing that the Overton 104 is correct as an R1 since it includes the 104.3 and that the Daves website is correct as an R6? as it limits the 104 to 104.2 (but not the proper definition of 104).
Sound okay? Or Not?

I checked coinfacts images and pcgs does have images for 104 to include the 104.3 with the circular die crack as defined in Overton. So is the 104 (defined to include the 104.3) actually an R1 with this definition and the R6? being limited to 104.2?

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1811-50c-overton-104-large-8/39425

pcgscacgold

So much information to unpack here. I hope one day in the MyCollect Bust Half Dollar group, there can be discussions like this. As always @pursuitofliberty your ability to explain things and willingness to do so is very appreciated. From the new guy.

Looks like I need to find me a 11-104a, as I love that circular die crack. Just outstanding.

pursuitofliberty

@lilolme

I am of the mind set that some Die States, albeit rare in and of themselves, should probably not be promoted as rarities when the Die Marriage overall is common. There are some exceptions, but not many.

This is also a primary driving factor with the BHNC not posting rarities for all Die States, as a significant number of members feel that data could be used for price manipulation.

PCGS's page is an example of this potential problem. As much as I love Steve Herrman, the AMBPR exaggerates the problem, even though he clearly states the R.6 is the state prior to the circular crack.

That said, for this particular issue, the rarity would be R.7?, R.6, R.1 and R.1 for the listed Die States, making both the O-104 and O-104a R.1's

messydesk

@pursuitofliberty said:
...
One more thing, remember too that in all cases the full crack or feature (chip, filled letter, etc) need not exist for the Die State (by decimal) to exist; only the positive start of said feature. For the Overton "lettered" States, the start of ANY of those features qualifies the coin as that State.

I hope this clears up this, and maybe some other questions regarding Die States.

Interesting. This is the opposite of the die stage designations for VAMs, where the entire feature must be present.

Pnies20

I would’ve never guessed, without something to read it in front of me, that the 104.3 is still a 104 and not a 104a. Especially since it doesn’t match the rarity. That just doesn’t compute for me. But like I’ve said before, I’m not good at math.

lilolme

@pursuitofliberty said:
@lilolme

I am of the mind set that some Die States, albeit rare in and of themselves, should probably not be promoted as rarities when the Die Marriage overall is common. There are some exceptions, but not many.

This is also a primary driving factor with the BHNC not posting rarities for all Die States, as a significant number of members feel that data could be used for price manipulation.

PCGS's page is an example of this potential problem. As much as I love Steve Herrman, the AMBPR exaggerates the problem, even though he clearly states the R.6 is the state prior to the circular crack.

That said, for this particular issue, the rarity would be R.7?, R.6, R.1 and R.1 for the listed Die States, making both the O-104 >and O-104a R.1's

.
Thanks, that is what I was getting out of it.

Overton 3rd Ed. is correct as it is defined for die state and Rarity (that is 104 through 104.3 and is R1 and 104a is R1).

PCGS has a problem as they show the R6? for the 104 but their coinfacts images indicate that a 104.3 is slabbed as a 104 making it an R1.

The Daves online has the incorrect definition of the 104 as not having the circular die crack or in other words the 104 as a 104.1 or 104.2 only. But then more correctly identify it as an R6? as they have it defined.

I will make a note in my Overton. Thanks

pursuitofliberty

@Pnies20 said:
I would’ve never guessed, without something to read it in front of me, that the 104.3 is still a 104 and not a 104a. Especially since it doesn’t match the rarity. That just doesn’t compute for me. But like I’ve said before, I’m not good at math.

>
This, I think, is part of the confusion. In this case, I think issues without any cracks, and even with the first crack (as Herb's coin exhibits), are so scarce that they were never part of the primary O-104. The second curving crack became the 104a.

Now, for some "my opinion only" stuff.

I would primarily want the 104.3 or 104.4 Die States as the aesthetics of the noticeable cracks are more desirable to me than than absence of the cracks, regardless of the rarity factor.

This issue helps illustrate the importance the independent Dies States that the BHNC has worked to develop in a progressive and decimal manner. The systems helps further pinpoint spots along the die progression, and has been continually expanding, one small step at a time, further analyzing where along the die progression the striking happened.

I don't always agree with the one Die State for a specific crack or feature. I have seen some coins that have part, most, or all of a dynamic crack (or other identifier), and if there are enough supporting examples of each along the way, I believe a secondary state could (and maybe should) be established.

Currently there are 450 Die Marriages for the Capped Bust, Lettered Edge coins, and over twice that many Die States (as identified in the BHNC Die State Study). While impossible to tell what the future holds, it may become common for more and more of the really interesting and seriously rare Die States to become more collectable independent of each other, with some garnering very little attention except amongst Die State specialists, and others receiving attention for overall popularity and aesthetics.

In this example, maybe the 104.1 and 104.2 carry a premium for rarity, while the 104.3 and 104.4 may become much more popular overall.

Anyway, the beauty of it all is there is no right size for everyone. We can identify where on the timeline some of these coins sit, and decide which ones (at least for us) fit.

pursuitofliberty

Herb,

Your marking on the last image is wrong. The right side curving crack is still a 104.

The left side crack to the forecurl is 104a.

Not all 104's are R.6. At all.