I am a slab collector, but not really a label collector per se. This type of product doesn't interest me, but I don't begrudge anyone who is. I say collect what you like and wish PCGS and UltraBreaks success with their new business venture.
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
@NJCoin , I disagree that this wasn’t created to appeal to people who enjoy games of chance. Here is the description from the product provider.
Unwrap the Ultimate Thrill: Each pack contains a limited edition 2023 Morgan or Peace Dollar PCGS MS70 bearing the Ultra label. One in 10 packs features an Ultra Gold Rush Label. Only one in 100 contain the elusive Ultra Infinity Label. Only 600 packs of the inaugural release 2023 Morgan and Peace Dollar have been issued.
@jeffas1974 said: @NJCoin , I disagree that this wasn’t created to appeal to people who enjoy games of chance. Here is the description from the product provider.
Unwrap the Ultimate Thrill: Each pack contains a limited edition 2023 Morgan or Peace Dollar PCGS MS70 bearing the Ultra label. One in 10 packs features an Ultra Gold Rush Label. Only one in 100 contain the elusive Ultra Infinity Label. Only 600 packs of the inaugural release 2023 Morgan and Peace Dollar have been issued.
Get all three, snap your fingers, and the universe ends, right?
@NJCoin said:
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world.
"And that's how the fight started..."
😆
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@NJCoin said:
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world.
"And that's how the fight started..."
😆
Not this time. Have him on IGNORE. The only problem is when I have to read what he says when someone responds to him by hitting quote.🤣😂
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@TomB said:
Does anyone else keep reading this as "ultra beaks"?
No
@1madman said:
I thought everyone only collects labels nowadays, and the coins inside don’t matter?
What’s the difference between a common coin in a doily label and this new product?
One is an accidental rarity and the other is a manufactured rarity.
But some people would collect both.
Another difference is that that the doily label has a track record of people paying a premium.
I guess these coins selling at $249 is the premium, and no further upside shot from that. Common doilies should be ~$50 slabs, but their premium takes them into the multi hundred dollar range. That make sense. Probably should have priced these at the $129 number to create a better buzz for future releases.
$129 would be no premium at all for 70s.
The upside would be fit the two scarce labels. You might see 4 figures for one.
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
I went on APMEX and Coin Mart and saw that MS70's go for about $210 (please let me know where I can get MS70's for $130 and I will finally buy one of each).
This is not really way out of line at $259. I would guess they will do the same thing for the proof releases. There will be people that want the top two labels for all the coins. If you were not promised an MS70 it would be tougher to pay that much.
Enjoy the hobby however you wish. I will guess a sell out and if not the remaining unopened packs may command a premium if people believe the rare ones were not pulled.
@pcgscacgold said:
I went on APMEX and Coin Mart and saw that MS70's go for about $210 (please let me know where I can get MS70's for $130 and I will finally buy one of each).
This is not really way out of line at $259. I would guess they will do the same thing for the proof releases. There will be people that want the top two labels for all the coins. If you were not promised an MS70 it would be tougher to pay that much.
Enjoy the hobby however you wish. I will guess a sell out and if not the remaining unopened packs may command a premium if people believe the rare ones were not pulled.
@TomB said:
Does anyone else keep reading this as "ultra beaks"?
No
@1madman said:
I thought everyone only collects labels nowadays, and the coins inside don’t matter?
What’s the difference between a common coin in a doily label and this new product?
One is an accidental rarity and the other is a manufactured rarity.
But some people would collect both.
Another difference is that that the doily label has a track record of people paying a premium.
I guess these coins selling at $249 is the premium, and no further upside shot from that. Common doilies should be ~$50 slabs, but their premium takes them into the multi hundred dollar range. That make sense. Probably should have priced these at the $129 number to create a better buzz for future releases.
$129 would be no premium at all for 70s.
The upside would be fit the two scarce labels. You might see 4 figures for one.
That’s my point. Create a “special” label at cost or no premium, and try to get some buzz to be able to continue the idea. Didn’t vaultbox series 1 actually lose money in order to advance the idea? If these pcgs labels get priced too high, very few will be interested. Think of the sample slab idea, cult following with significant premiums for certain labels.
I agree. I won't be playing. But I'm okay with those that do. It will be interesting to see what the rate label fetches in the secondary market.
I think these will do very well in the market for awhile. Mainly because they are so mindlessly easy to buy.
I just wish they weren't almost impossible to explain to someone why they are so valuable.
@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks @1madman I will need to check those out. Never bought from them but that price seems really low.
They (same company) also have them on eBay for $133 if you prefer that route. Some other sellers are a bit higher but I see several under $140 (including one that has a best offer option that might end up being less if they are willing to take a few percent off).
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
That's fine, but, as I think you might have said in another post, it's a artificial scarcity created entirely by them. If someone wants to attribute value to that, good for them.
Totally different from sticking a $20,000 winning lottery ticket in one of the boxes, other valuable lottery tickets in other boxes, overcharging for the boxes, and then not being transparent about the distribution.
I have ZERO problems with this, or with anyone who wants to pay $120, in addition to the value of the coin, for limited edition labels. People do this every day with other labels issued by all the major grading services.
If a market actually develops for Ultra Infinity labels, good for them. Capitalism. America.
@jeffas1974 said: @NJCoin , I disagree that this wasn’t created to appeal to people who enjoy games of chance. Here is the description from the product provider.
Unwrap the Ultimate Thrill: Each pack contains a limited edition 2023 Morgan or Peace Dollar PCGS MS70 bearing the Ultra label. One in 10 packs features an Ultra Gold Rush Label. Only one in 100 contain the elusive Ultra Infinity Label. Only 600 packs of the inaugural release 2023 Morgan and Peace Dollar have been issued.
Yes and no. This isn't like other games of chance, where the prize is universally accepted dollars. Here, the prize is a limited edition label, which might or might not be worth anything. So, it's really appealing to limited edition label collectors, with, as I said, a twist involving which label you get. Not the same as winning a $20K gold coin.
@pcgscacgold said:
I went on APMEX and Coin Mart and saw that MS70's go for about $210 (please let me know where I can get MS70's for $130 and I will finally buy one of each).
This is not really way out of line at $259. I would guess they will do the same thing for the proof releases. There will be people that want the top two labels for all the coins. If you were not promised an MS70 it would be tougher to pay that much.
Enjoy the hobby however you wish. I will guess a sell out and if not the remaining unopened packs may command a premium if people believe the rare ones were not pulled.
Look on ebay. Lots of them from 130 to 150. You can buy both for $270
@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks @1madman I will need to check those out. Never bought from them but that price seems really low.
They (same company) also have them on eBay for $133 if you prefer that route. Some other sellers are a bit higher but I see several under $140 (including one that has a best offer option that might end up being less if they are willing to take a few percent off).
@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks @U1chicago and @jmlanzaf Makes me wonder why people that slab coins bought from the mint. No worry MS70's and not that much of a premium.
Some figured there would be more of a profit to be made but the market turned quickly to where it no longer makes sense to grade yourself (the presales and earlier sales did better if the buyers did not cancel or return the coins).
Also, bigger dealers who can get bulk grading discounts can still make some profit even at the 130-140 levels (especially if they can sell a large amount).
@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks @U1chicago and @jmlanzaf Makes me wonder why people that slab coins bought from the mint. No worry MS70's and not that much of a premium.
Some figured there would be more of a profit to be made but the market turned quickly to where it no longer makes sense to grade yourself (the presales and earlier sales did better if the buyers did not cancel or return the coins).
Also, bigger dealers who can get bulk grading discounts can still make some profit even at the 130-140 levels (especially if they can sell a large amount).
Yeah. This.
Some people like to "make" their own. 75% of the time it is cheaper to buy them already "made", especially if the risk of a 69 is removed. Better than 95% of the time it's cheaper if you're willing to wait a few months or a year for the price to settle in. But coin collectors are not known for their patience. Lol
That's kind of why I find it interesting that so many people are upset about the boxes. I've known a lot of coin collectors, even on this forum, who have sunk unrecoverable money into slab fees and junk coins. Don't get me wrong. They should. They are having fun. But then they'll turn around and complain that a certain item is a rip-off or overpriced while they are indulging themselves in some other item.
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
That's fine, but, as I think you might have said in another post, it's a artificial scarcity created entirely by them. If someone wants to attribute value to that, good for them.
Totally different from sticking a $20,000 winning lottery ticket in one of the boxes, other valuable lottery tickets in other boxes, overcharging for the boxes, and then not being transparent about the distribution.
I have ZERO problems with this, or with anyone who wants to pay $120, in addition to the value of the coin, for limited edition labels. People do this every day with other labels issued by all the major grading services.
If a market actually develops for Ultra Infinity labels, good for them. Capitalism. America.
There's a certain level of hypocrisy here. After all, the VB also has a "limited edition label". So why can't you apply the exact same argument to VB with the additional possibility of getting a higher priced coin?
You're given a pass to this product for selling a lottery ticket for a label of speculative value after condemning VB for selling a lottery ticket for a coin of known value.
So, if I buy a VB to only get the label is my heart then pure?
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
I kind of think they're (UB) testing the public to see how gullible we are.
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
That's fine, but, as I think you might have said in another post, it's a artificial scarcity created entirely by them. If someone wants to attribute value to that, good for them.
Totally different from sticking a $20,000 winning lottery ticket in one of the boxes, other valuable lottery tickets in other boxes, overcharging for the boxes, and then not being transparent about the distribution.
I have ZERO problems with this, or with anyone who wants to pay $120, in addition to the value of the coin, for limited edition labels. People do this every day with other labels issued by all the major grading services.
If a market actually develops for Ultra Infinity labels, good for them. Capitalism. America.
There's a certain level of hypocrisy here. After all, the VB also has a "limited edition label". So why can't you apply the exact same argument to VB with the additional possibility of getting a higher priced coin?
You're given a pass to this product for selling a lottery ticket for a label of speculative value after condemning VB for selling a lottery ticket for a coin of known value.
So, if I buy a VB to only get the label is my heart then pure?
Because I was always ignoring the VB label. No one bought VBs for labels, except maybe on the secondary market, at deep discounts, like you did.
Nice deflection there, but all the criticism of VB centered around, let's call it deceptive marketing with respect to how coins were distributed and how influencers ended up with "samples" that weren't really samples pre-release, how the boxes were sold through third parties, how the vast majority of gamblers were destined to receive terrible value for their money, etc., etc., etc.
People were buying overpriced lottery tickets, not overpriced labels. If you want to believe differently I'm not going to argue with you, but there is absolutely no hypocrisy here, and I never criticized you for anything other than your hypocrisy in hyping the offering but not participating yourself, but instead waiting to relieve some disappointed sucker of his prize at a deep discount in the secondary market. By the way, how is the thriving market for VB labels holding up?
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Wow! I read through the website and I have no interest in this product at all.
Good luck to those that want to buy it. I will be monitoring the website on release day. Personally I don't think they will sell out😂🤣
Only 600 packs available but who cares? Price is way too expensive in my opinion. Risk/Reward is to great on the Risk side and price point is way too high.
In my opinion VaultBox is a far superior product and caters to the trading card crowd mentality.
Ultra Breaks product is a big miss in my opinion, lacks imagination and misreads the intended market.
I am truly shocked PCGS is participating in this program.🤔
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
That's fine, but, as I think you might have said in another post, it's a artificial scarcity created entirely by them. If someone wants to attribute value to that, good for them.
Totally different from sticking a $20,000 winning lottery ticket in one of the boxes, other valuable lottery tickets in other boxes, overcharging for the boxes, and then not being transparent about the distribution.
I have ZERO problems with this, or with anyone who wants to pay $120, in addition to the value of the coin, for limited edition labels. People do this every day with other labels issued by all the major grading services.
If a market actually develops for Ultra Infinity labels, good for them. Capitalism. America.
There's a certain level of hypocrisy here. After all, the VB also has a "limited edition label". So why can't you apply the exact same argument to VB with the additional possibility of getting a higher priced coin?
You're given a pass to this product for selling a lottery ticket for a label of speculative value after condemning VB for selling a lottery ticket for a coin of known value.
So, if I buy a VB to only get the label is my heart then pure?
Because I was always ignoring the VB label. No one bought VBs for labels, except maybe on the secondary market, at deep discounts, like you did.
Nice deflection there, but all the criticism of VB centered around, let's call it deceptive marketing with respect to how coins were distributed and how influencers ended up with "samples" that weren't really samples pre-release, how the boxes were sold through third parties, how the vast majority of gamblers were destined to receive terrible value for their money, etc., etc., etc.
People were buying overpriced lottery tickets, not overpriced labels. If you want to believe differently I'm not going to argue with you, but there is absolutely no hypocrisy here, and I never criticized you for anything other than your hypocrisy in hyping the offering but not participating yourself, but instead waiting to relieve some disappointed sucker of his prize at a deep discount in the secondary market. By the way, how is the thriving market for VB labels holding up?
VB boxes still sell well.
How's the market for Ultra Break labels? Oh, yeah, no one knows.
And you are still claiming without proof that the distribution of VB boxes was not random based on one video. So take that column out of your argument, and you are still approving one mystery box after condemning another.
You don't need to agree or disagree. I think everyone can see it for what it is. At least the people that condemn both are consistent. [Just like me, a lover of both.]
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
Understood. But, don't kid yourself. VB was not selling labels, and these guys are not selling coins. They are totally different products, meant for totally different audiences. The only intersection is that both products come in sealed boxes, and you don't know exactly what you are getting.
The proof is in Freddie's reaction. He was all over VB 3, a single slab in a mystery sealed box at basically the same price point as this. He has no interest in this, because he sees the price and knows what the coin is.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
Understood. But, don't kid yourself. VB was not selling labels, and these guys are not selling coins. They are totally different products, meant for totally different audiences. The only intersection is that both products come in sealed boxes, and you don't know exactly what you are getting.
The proof is in Freddie's reaction. He was all over VB 3, a single slab in a mystery sealed box at basically the same price point as this. He has no interest in this, because he sees the price and knows what the coin is.
Can you see the difference yet?
My name isn't Freddie. But, like me, maybe he just doesn't care about labels. And, as I said, I don't really care about the labels in either product.
But I stand by the fact that he and I both approve of both products whereas you are embracing the label lottery after rejecting the coin lottery.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
A few things:
From the initial description, the collectible labels from this retail venture will be a very small release. The VB labels will be common.
The margin spread is less between the markup and the coin/label value, because there are no grandiose prizes. Therefore the risk to the average buyer is much less. In other words, its less of an overcharge.
Finally, is the hobby really interested in the coalescence of numismatics and compulsive gambling?
"Just 300 examples of each the 2023 Morgan Dollar and 2023 Peace Dollar are encapsulated with the holographic labels, which come in three levels: Ultra, Gold Rush, and Infinity. Each pack will contain one MS70 coin, with a chance at either dollar coin in all three different labels. Only 267 Ultra labels are assigned to each of the two coins, while just 30 each were graded with Gold Rush labels. Merely three of each coin were paired with the Infinity label."
I feel like this is the wrong way to create hype, artificial scarcity and FOMO.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
A few things:
From the initial description, the collectible labels from this retail venture will be a very small release. The VB labels will be common.
The margin spread is less between the markup and the coin/label value, because there are no grandiose prizes. Therefore the risk to the average buyer is much less. In other words, its less of an overcharge.
Finally, is the hobby really interested in the coalescence of numismatics and compulsive gambling?
A few responses to a few things:
The VB labels were in the hundreds to a couple thousand. The base label here is in the hundreds. We're talking about a factor of 2 to 5, depending on series. Were there not only 1200 VB3 against 600 UB1?
The margin spread is NOT significantly lower. You are paying $250 for $130 coin. The price point for VB3 was $229 with the cheapest coin being about $80 and most of the coins over $100.
Obviously so, otherwise the U.S. Mint would not be in the collectible coin business and TPGs would not be raking in profits from people submitting common coins looking for uncommon grades.
Have you seen the "Bounty Sets" in VB? That's an interesting way to drive interest. It's now a lottery with a scavenger hunt!!!
@cameonut2011 said:
I miss the days when the majority of hobbyists were coin collectors and not plastic speculators or gamblers.
Plastic is more recent, but there were always speculators and gamblers.
Of course, but at least it wasn’t as artificial. But then again, that argument would cut against faux “condition rarities” too. I guess I should say I miss the state of the hobby prior to the registry sets.
@cameonut2011 said:
I miss the days when the majority of hobbyists were coin collectors and not plastic speculators or gamblers.
Plastic is more recent, but there were always speculators and gamblers.
Of course, but at least it wasn’t as artificial. But then again, that argument would cut against faux “condition rarities” too. I guess I should say I miss the state of the hobby prior to the registry sets.
I somewhat agree. But people love their registries... as long as they are having fun.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
A few things:
From the initial description, the collectible labels from this retail venture will be a very small release. The VB labels will be common.
The margin spread is less between the markup and the coin/label value, because there are no grandiose prizes. Therefore the risk to the average buyer is much less. In other words, its less of an overcharge.
Finally, is the hobby really interested in the coalescence of numismatics and compulsive gambling?
A few responses to a few things:
The VB labels were in the hundreds to a couple thousand. The base label here is in the hundreds. We're talking about a factor of 2 to 5, depending on series. Were there not only 1200 VB3 against 600 UB1?
The margin spread is NOT significantly lower. You are paying $250 for $130 coin. The price point for VB3 was $229 with the cheapest coin being about $80 and most of the coins over $100.
Obviously so, otherwise the U.S. Mint would not be in the collectible coin business and TPGs would not be raking in profits from people submitting common coins looking for uncommon grades.
Have you seen the "Bounty Sets" in VB? That's an interesting way to drive interest. It's now a lottery with a scavenger hunt!!!
No I havent seen the bounty sets, I'm not really actively following. But I am sure without a doubt they are going to be looking for unique ways to increase the margins by temptation and risk.
@ProofCollection said:
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
A few things:
From the initial description, the collectible labels from this retail venture will be a very small release. The VB labels will be common.
The margin spread is less between the markup and the coin/label value, because there are no grandiose prizes. Therefore the risk to the average buyer is much less. In other words, its less of an overcharge.
Finally, is the hobby really interested in the coalescence of numismatics and compulsive gambling?
A few responses to a few things:
The VB labels were in the hundreds to a couple thousand. The base label here is in the hundreds. We're talking about a factor of 2 to 5, depending on series. Were there not only 1200 VB3 against 600 UB1?
The margin spread is NOT significantly lower. You are paying $250 for $130 coin. The price point for VB3 was $229 with the cheapest coin being about $80 and most of the coins over $100.
Obviously so, otherwise the U.S. Mint would not be in the collectible coin business and TPGs would not be raking in profits from people submitting common coins looking for uncommon grades.
Have you seen the "Bounty Sets" in VB? That's an interesting way to drive interest. It's now a lottery with a scavenger hunt!!!
No I havent seen the bounty sets, I'm not really actively following. But I am sure without a doubt they are going to be looking for unique ways to increase the margins by temptation and risk.
The bounties are a clever way to artificially stimulate secondary market interest by offering "bounties" for specific collections of VB coins.
Similar to the idea behind VB (i.e., get people to pay above market for random coins in the hope of scoring a valuable one), the idea now is to get people to chase limited edition slabs, of limited value, so that a few can collect a prize if they successfully complete the scavenger hunt.
Again, many play, most lose, a few win. If it works, it creates a floor under something that otherwise has little value, if any, over and above the coin itself.
Comments
I am a slab collector, but not really a label collector per se. This type of product doesn't interest me, but I don't begrudge anyone who is. I say collect what you like and wish PCGS and UltraBreaks success with their new business venture.
Philippians 4:4-7
There really is no reason to be shocked. None at all. These are all private businesses, not hallowed institutions.
They all make special labels available to anyone who is willing to give them volume. Signatures, special cores, First Day, First Release, First Delivery, Early Release, etc., etc., etc.
This is no different. The fact that this does not appeal to the lottery ticket gamblers among us is great, because it is not intended to. It is meant to appeal to the crowd that will pay inflated prices for limited edition labels, probably on TV, based on who is behind it.
With a sealed box, not being sure exactly what you are going to get twist and excitement designed to appeal to the Freddies of the world. Really no different than any of the other manufactured labels many already collect. And, perfectly legit, since there is no unregulated lottery aspect to it, with the potential for manipulation in distribution and wide disparity in value between winners and losers.
@NJCoin , I disagree that this wasn’t created to appeal to people who enjoy games of chance. Here is the description from the product provider.
Unwrap the Ultimate Thrill: Each pack contains a limited edition 2023 Morgan or Peace Dollar PCGS MS70 bearing the Ultra label. One in 10 packs features an Ultra Gold Rush Label. Only one in 100 contain the elusive Ultra Infinity Label. Only 600 packs of the inaugural release 2023 Morgan and Peace Dollar have been issued.
Get all three, snap your fingers, and the universe ends, right?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
"And that's how the fight started..."
😆
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Fwiw, these hit the ground on Thursday.
Not this time. Have him on IGNORE. The only problem is when I have to read what he says when someone responds to him by hitting quote.🤣😂
I'm often the last person to respond to a thread... let's see if I can make a lite magic happen here 🤞
P.T.Barnum would have liked this promotion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
$129 would be no premium at all for 70s.
The upside would be fit the two scarce labels. You might see 4 figures for one.
Lmfao.
There are two scarcer labels. It is a lottery. Whether the base label has a $250 value or not remains to be seen. It is absolutely designed for gamblers. They even spun it that way in the release.
I went on APMEX and Coin Mart and saw that MS70's go for about $210 (please let me know where I can get MS70's for $130 and I will finally buy one of each).
This is not really way out of line at $259. I would guess they will do the same thing for the proof releases. There will be people that want the top two labels for all the coins. If you were not promised an MS70 it would be tougher to pay that much.
Enjoy the hobby however you wish. I will guess a sell out and if not the remaining unopened packs may command a premium if people believe the rare ones were not pulled.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Here’s the Morgan:
https://bullionexchanges.com/2023-morgan-silver-dollar-pcgs-ms-70-first-strike-morgan-label
Here’s the peace:
https://bullionexchanges.com/2023-peace-silver-dollar-pcgs-ms-70-first-strike-peace-label
That’s my point. Create a “special” label at cost or no premium, and try to get some buzz to be able to continue the idea. Didn’t vaultbox series 1 actually lose money in order to advance the idea? If these pcgs labels get priced too high, very few will be interested. Think of the sample slab idea, cult following with significant premiums for certain labels.
I think these will do very well in the market for awhile. Mainly because they are so mindlessly easy to buy.
I just wish they weren't almost impossible to explain to someone why they are so valuable.
Thanks @1madman I will need to check those out. Never bought from them but that price seems really low.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
They (same company) also have them on eBay for $133 if you prefer that route. Some other sellers are a bit higher but I see several under $140 (including one that has a best offer option that might end up being less if they are willing to take a few percent off).
That's fine, but, as I think you might have said in another post, it's a artificial scarcity created entirely by them. If someone wants to attribute value to that, good for them.
Totally different from sticking a $20,000 winning lottery ticket in one of the boxes, other valuable lottery tickets in other boxes, overcharging for the boxes, and then not being transparent about the distribution.
I have ZERO problems with this, or with anyone who wants to pay $120, in addition to the value of the coin, for limited edition labels. People do this every day with other labels issued by all the major grading services.
If a market actually develops for Ultra Infinity labels, good for them. Capitalism. America.
Yes and no. This isn't like other games of chance, where the prize is universally accepted dollars. Here, the prize is a limited edition label, which might or might not be worth anything. So, it's really appealing to limited edition label collectors, with, as I said, a twist involving which label you get. Not the same as winning a $20K gold coin.
Look on ebay. Lots of them from 130 to 150. You can buy both for $270
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155618226970
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115858979770
Here is the Morgan with make an offer at 138:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256201313385
And a Peace at 130 or best offer:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335000359220
Thanks @U1chicago and @jmlanzaf Makes me wonder why people that slab coins bought from the mint. No worry MS70's and not that much of a premium.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Some figured there would be more of a profit to be made but the market turned quickly to where it no longer makes sense to grade yourself (the presales and earlier sales did better if the buyers did not cancel or return the coins).
Also, bigger dealers who can get bulk grading discounts can still make some profit even at the 130-140 levels (especially if they can sell a large amount).
Yeah. This.
Some people like to "make" their own. 75% of the time it is cheaper to buy them already "made", especially if the risk of a 69 is removed. Better than 95% of the time it's cheaper if you're willing to wait a few months or a year for the price to settle in. But coin collectors are not known for their patience. Lol
That's kind of why I find it interesting that so many people are upset about the boxes. I've known a lot of coin collectors, even on this forum, who have sunk unrecoverable money into slab fees and junk coins. Don't get me wrong. They should. They are having fun. But then they'll turn around and complain that a certain item is a rip-off or overpriced while they are indulging themselves in some other item.
I miss the days when the majority of hobbyists were coin collectors and not plastic speculators or gamblers.
Not for me, but for many they will like the gambling aspect of it.
What is important is that we have fun with our hobby, no matter how or what we choose to collect.
Happy Collecting!!!
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
I understand some of the collectible labels that someone might want to put together a Mercanti set or a Moy set and even the labels denoting an event or a release. But why anyone would be compelled to pay decent money to have the one of three infinity label from a "Franklin-mint-esque" company is beyond me. I think the Vault Box business model is valid. But Ultrabreaks, I just don't see it catching on unless this concept evolves somehow. But I always seem to be wrong about these things.
Plastic is more recent, but there were always speculators and gamblers.
There's a certain level of hypocrisy here. After all, the VB also has a "limited edition label". So why can't you apply the exact same argument to VB with the additional possibility of getting a higher priced coin?
You're given a pass to this product for selling a lottery ticket for a label of speculative value after condemning VB for selling a lottery ticket for a coin of known value.
So, if I buy a VB to only get the label is my heart then pure?
Well, I think they are counting more on the PCGS label than the company itself. Frankly, I think the PCGS role here is more dubious than the NGC/VB connection. NGC is using a custom slab and packing the boxes, but the enticement is supposed to be the rare coin not the label. PCGS is literally just allowing this guy to sell the label. He must be a bigger wig than I think
I kind of think they're (UB) testing the public to see how gullible we are.
Because I was always ignoring the VB label. No one bought VBs for labels, except maybe on the secondary market, at deep discounts, like you did.
Nice deflection there, but all the criticism of VB centered around, let's call it deceptive marketing with respect to how coins were distributed and how influencers ended up with "samples" that weren't really samples pre-release, how the boxes were sold through third parties, how the vast majority of gamblers were destined to receive terrible value for their money, etc., etc., etc.
People were buying overpriced lottery tickets, not overpriced labels. If you want to believe differently I'm not going to argue with you, but there is absolutely no hypocrisy here, and I never criticized you for anything other than your hypocrisy in hyping the offering but not participating yourself, but instead waiting to relieve some disappointed sucker of his prize at a deep discount in the secondary market. By the way, how is the thriving market for VB labels holding up?
B-I-N-G-O!!!! How do you have the nerve to post this immediately after your preceding post with a straight face? Was VB really selling a limited edition label, or rare coins seeded in a few boxes at inflated premiums? Both? 🤣🤣🤣
If so, the label is sure not what got Freddie all excited, based on his reaction to the current offering!
VB boxes still sell well.
How's the market for Ultra Break labels? Oh, yeah, no one knows.
And you are still claiming without proof that the distribution of VB boxes was not random based on one video. So take that column out of your argument, and you are still approving one mystery box after condemning another.
You don't need to agree or disagree. I think everyone can see it for what it is. At least the people that condemn both are consistent. [Just like me, a lover of both.]
VB was selling both. The distinction between my two posts is rooted in two different corporate entities. NGC/PCGS and VB/UB. I have no problem with either box seller. But people conflate NGC with VB and even suggested that PCGS would never do such a thing. [Like they don't always have custom labels. ]
VB has the possibility of a high value coin. It's not just a custom label. [I don't put much stock in either label, mind you, but some people do ] Ultra Break has nothing to offer but the label which is, apparently, a gift from PCGS.
Can you see the difference yet?
Edited to add: in theory, VB could use standard labels or raw coins and still have a product. UB only had a product if PCGS gifts them one.
Understood. But, don't kid yourself. VB was not selling labels, and these guys are not selling coins. They are totally different products, meant for totally different audiences. The only intersection is that both products come in sealed boxes, and you don't know exactly what you are getting.
The proof is in Freddie's reaction. He was all over VB 3, a single slab in a mystery sealed box at basically the same price point as this. He has no interest in this, because he sees the price and knows what the coin is.
Can you see the difference yet?
My name isn't Freddie. But, like me, maybe he just doesn't care about labels. And, as I said, I don't really care about the labels in either product.
But I stand by the fact that he and I both approve of both products whereas you are embracing the label lottery after rejecting the coin lottery.
Some members never learn.🙄😂🤣
Meh...
The double standard hurts my heart.
A few things:
From the initial description, the collectible labels from this retail venture will be a very small release. The VB labels will be common.
The margin spread is less between the markup and the coin/label value, because there are no grandiose prizes. Therefore the risk to the average buyer is much less. In other words, its less of an overcharge.
Finally, is the hobby really interested in the coalescence of numismatics and compulsive gambling?
"Just 300 examples of each the 2023 Morgan Dollar and 2023 Peace Dollar are encapsulated with the holographic labels, which come in three levels: Ultra, Gold Rush, and Infinity. Each pack will contain one MS70 coin, with a chance at either dollar coin in all three different labels. Only 267 Ultra labels are assigned to each of the two coins, while just 30 each were graded with Gold Rush labels. Merely three of each coin were paired with the Infinity label."
I feel like this is the wrong way to create hype, artificial scarcity and FOMO.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
A few responses to a few things:
Have you seen the "Bounty Sets" in VB? That's an interesting way to drive interest. It's now a lottery with a scavenger hunt!!!
Of course, but at least it wasn’t as artificial. But then again, that argument would cut against faux “condition rarities” too. I guess I should say I miss the state of the hobby prior to the registry sets.
Major error coin collectors do not have to deal with registry sets, CAC, VB, UB, gradeflation, nor common coins
So? Some of us think error coins aren't worth our money, time and energy so there is that.😂🤣
I somewhat agree. But people love their registries... as long as they are having fun.
Actually VB had error coins in them.
No I havent seen the bounty sets, I'm not really actively following. But I am sure without a doubt they are going to be looking for unique ways to increase the margins by temptation and risk.
The bounties are a clever way to artificially stimulate secondary market interest by offering "bounties" for specific collections of VB coins.
Similar to the idea behind VB (i.e., get people to pay above market for random coins in the hope of scoring a valuable one), the idea now is to get people to chase limited edition slabs, of limited value, so that a few can collect a prize if they successfully complete the scavenger hunt.
Again, many play, most lose, a few win. If it works, it creates a floor under something that otherwise has little value, if any, over and above the coin itself.
I have taken advantage of that mindset to my financial benefit so many times.