Proof Bust Quarters?

manlye1

Probably a loaded question but how does one tell the difference between a business struck and proof struck Bust Quarter? It seems after going through auctions and reference books these coins flip flop from one to another and back again.

lilolme

First, I don't know bust quarters or proof bust quarters. So just passing along what I found.

This article appears to be indicating it is done on look and feel of the coin. (link with copy and paste of article)
This article also notes the 1828 as previously offered as... (bottom of article - I did not quickly find it at SB)

I wondered if die pairs were possibly used. However, on the two that I checked the browning number appeared for both proof and mint state examples. Also note where different browning numbers were identified for the proof. Stacks noted this and thus implying that they were done at different times (ref. Stacks link at bottom).

https://www.pcgs.com/news/exceptionally-rare-capped-bust-proof-coinage-graded-heading-to-auction

(Santa Ana, California) – Professional Coin Grading Service (www.PCGS.com) recently graded a super-rare 1821 Proof Capped Bust Quarter, which will be offered by Stack’s Bowers Galleries in August alongside a unique PCGS-graded 1828 Proof Capped Bust Half Dollar. The coins, crossing the auction block in conjunction with the American Numismatic Association World’s Fair of Money in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, are notable for being among only a very small number of pre-1858 United States proof coins.

“PCGS stands as the authority in not only grading coins, but also confirming – or dispelling – long-held theories about certain coins,” said PCGS President Stephanie Sabin. “In the case of the 1821 Proof Capped Bust Quarter, our expert grading and attribution team employed thorough analysis of the individual specimen itself and leaned on their unparalleled knowledge of early proofs to confirm that this submission is indeed a proof. As for the 1828 Proof Capped Bust Half Dollar, we are thrilled to have confirmed it is a unique proof – a true numismatic treasure that, along with the 1821 Proof Quarter, will raise many paddles upon crossing the auction block.”

“There are few situations in numismatics that bring me more personal fulfillment than assisting to authenticate previously unknown or misunderstood coins,” said PCGS Director of Numismatic Education & Grading Team Leader Steve Feltner. “These two coins were no different. When they were received, it was immediately apparent that they were special. The level of reflectivity in the fields, coupled with the sharpness of the devices, led to great discussion and relatively swift conclusions that these are, in fact, master coins. The grading and authentication team at PCGS was honored to have been chosen to properly identify and grade these numismatically and historically significant rarities.”

“We are pleased that PCGS has confirmed the status of these early proofs,” said Stack’s Bowers Galleries Executive Vice President Christine Karstedt. “Stack’s Bowers Galleries is excited to offer these rare gems to the public, and we know they will be regarded as crown jewels in the next collections they grace.”

The PCGS encapsulation of this new-to-market 1821 Proof Capped Bust Quarter is the latest addition to a very short roster of about a half dozen known specimens. This exceedingly rare coin exhibits the incredibly sharp strike and reflective fields consistent with the few other extant 1821 Proof Quarters. Original toning is resplendently displayed in hues of iridescent rose-gray, salmon-pink, reddish-apricot, and cobalt blue, with color especially vivid when viewed in light.

The 1828 Capped Bust Half Dollar is another significant early proof rarity. Stack’s Bowers Galleries previously offered this piece in the 2006 offering of the George “Buddy” Byers Collection, where the proof half dollar realized $6,555. At the time, the coin was cataloged as an “extremely rare coin which stands on its own credentials.” The coin flashes its highly reflective mirrored fields and frosty devices with highlights of lemony yellow, russet gold, and bright steel. The coin boasts further character with its 1% off-center strike and reverse die crack encircling “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA” and “50 C.”
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And the recent auction of the above 1821 at SB.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-13VKRP/1821-capped-bust-quarter-b-5-rarity-7-as-a-proof-proof-64-pcgs

Here is an earlier auction of another 1821 proof when it was a pop 1 at pcgs but a couple others known.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1DOAM/1821-capped-bust-quarter-browning-5-rarity-8-as-a-proof-proof-67-pcgs

scubafuel

Very early proofs are hard to confirm, especially barring any documentation. Coins that were first off new dies were often saved and can look very similar (indistinguishable sometimes?) to a proof striking from that era. I think that’s part of the disagreement between tpgs sometimes.

MFeld

I hardly ever hear these characteristics mentioned, and they’re not necessarily determinative of a Capped Bust Coin’s status as a Proof. However, I believe that they can tilt the scale, considerably…
I look for Proof surfaces surrounding the letters LIBERTY on Ms. Liberty’s headband and between the vertical stripes on the eagle’s shield.

Many years ago, I set out on a quest to assemble a set of Proof Capped Bust Half Dimes. I was only able to obtain four different dates and eventually came to the conclusion that such a set would probably be impossible.

manlye1

Wow that is a tall order, congratulations for even attempting it. The early proofs are so interesting, many that were thought to be proof such as the 1837 Elisasberg Quarter, now are deemed non-proof. In contrast the recent 1821 quarter which was a proof then business strike now confirmed proof really adds to the mystery of our early mint.

MrEureka

Part of the confusion over which coins are deemed to be proofs is the confusion over the terminology itself.

MrEureka

@lilolme said:

I wondered if die pairs were possibly used. However, on the two that I checked the browning number appeared for both proof and mint state examples. Also note where different browning numbers were identified for the proof. Stacks noted this and thus implying that they were done at different times (ref. Stacks link at bottom).

There are some early “proofs” from “proof-only” dies. In all likelihood, the only reason those dies did not remain in service to strike non-proofs was that production for the given calendar year had already ceased. Otherwise, why let perfectly good dies go to waste?

EastonCollection

Interesting question about proof CBQs. At the last JRCS meeting at the ANA show in Pittsburgh, I lead a discussion with John Dannreuther and one question that I asked him was how does one know whether a Bust coin is a proof or not. His answer focused on the coins state of preservation by inspecting the coins's surfaces and its strike. In some cases, it might be impossible to tell if its a proof or not because the coin might have been circulated and in those situations, the surfaces are worn and devices are worn. John has wrote books about proof coinage and he completed writing about proof gold and nickel. Next up, John will be writing about proof silver, and he is the leading expert on this question. These books are fanatics and gives a lot of history on early proofs. I recommend buying these books.

pursuitofliberty

@EastonCollection

That was a fun meeting and a very interesting talk and format!

manlye1

Wish I could have made it!

EastonCollection

@pursuitofliberty said:
@EastonCollection

That was a fun meeting and a very interesting talk and format!

Glad that you thought it was fun and interesting. If the JRCS officers permit me to do more meetings, then I have plans to change the formats. I did have a great time being apart of this discussion too!