Rocky Marciano. Only undefeated heavyweight ever.

4for4

I know nothing about boxing. Was he the best heavyweight ever ?

coolstanley

Yes he was. He ran 5-6 miles a day and has a workout regimen that was 2nd to none. The GOAT of boxing for sure.

1951WheatiesPremium

Up there for sure.

There’s about 4-5 guys I’d put against him/along with him.

tommyrusty7

He was the best I ever saw for sure!
He was from Brockton Massachusetts.

doubledragon

If you're going to look at who the greatest heavyweight of all-time really is, you have to look at who they beat, their resume. While Rocky Marciano was unbeaten, his competition was nowhere near the level of Muhammad Ali's, Ali fought in the deepest most brutal era of heavyweight boxers in the history of the sport, he beat them all, the boxers, the swarmers, and the punchers. This resume reads like a murderers row of brutality, some of the hardest punchers the sport has ever known, some stone cold killers on this list. He dominated the Golden era of heavyweight boxing, I mean this resume is just ridiculous. Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle, Archie Moore, and Bob Foster are all on Ring Magazines greatest punchers of the century list, some of the hardest punchers in boxing history, and Ali took their best bombs and told them to keep coming, Ali had an anvil for a chin, no one ever stopped him, I honestly don't know how he made it through this gauntlet of punchers without being killed. When you look at the names on this list, it's just mind boggling, it's the greatest resume in heavyweight history.

Joe Frazier ×2
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Floyd Patterson ×2
Sonny Liston ×2
Ron Lyle
Archie Moore
Bob Foster
George Chuvalo ×2
Oscar Bonavena
Henry Cooper ×2
Cleveland Williams
Ken Norton ×2
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry
Ernie Terrell
Leon Spinks
Joe Bugner
Zora Folley
Jimmy Young

4for4

@doubledragon said:
If you're going to look at who the greatest heavyweight of all-time really is, you have to look at who they beat, their resume. While Rocky Marciano was unbeaten, his competition was nowhere near the level of Muhammad Ali's, Ali fought in the deepest most brutal era of heavyweight boxers in the history of the sport, he beat them all, the boxers, the swarmers, and the punchers. This resume reads like a murderers row of brutality, some of the hardest punchers the sport has ever known, some stone cold killers on this list. He dominated the Golden era of heavyweight boxing, I mean this resume is just ridiculous. Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle, Archie Moore, and Bob Foster are all on Ring Magazines greatest punchers of the century list, some of the hardest punchers in boxing history, and Ali took their best bombs and told them to keep coming, Ali had an anvil for a chin, no one ever stopped him. When you look at the names on this list, it's just mind boggling, it's the greatest resume in heavyweight history.

Joe Frazier ×2
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Floyd Patterson ×2
Sonny Liston ×2
Ron Lyle
Archie Moore
Bob Foster
George Chuvalo ×2
Oscar Bonavena
Henry Cooper ×2
Cleveland Williams
Ken Norton ×2
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry
Ernie Terrell
Leon Spinks
Joe Bugner
Zora Folley
Jimmy Young

Is it fair or unfair to say Ali didn’t fight a lot during those matches?
He laid against the ropes and covered his face and was rather boring and afraid of getting hit until the other guy was tired from so much punching a frady cat.

Rocky was behind in a lot of fights and always came back to win due to his iron chin and street fighter mentality. In other words, he fought all rounds, while Ali did little.

4for4

Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Rocky battled all rounds and was behind quite a few fights but had an iron chin and tenacity and stamina.

A true fighter.

Not my thoughts. Just what I read. 😉

JoeBanzai

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

4for4

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

doubledragon

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

LOL, What Ali did in the Foreman fight was one of the greatest performances I've ever seen in a boxing ring. Going into that fight, no one gave Ali a chance, Foreman was a monster that was destroying everything in his path. Howard Cosell thought it was going to be the end of Ali, and said as much before the fight, didn't work out like that, Ali's strategy was brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCOvjkbEn3c

georgebailey2

@doubledragon said:
If you're going to look at who the greatest heavyweight of all-time really is, you have to look at who they beat, their resume. While Rocky Marciano was unbeaten, his competition was nowhere near the level of Muhammad Ali's >

After all. Joe Louis was 75...check that.....137 years old when Marciano fought him.
https://youtu.be/0LPddiQXD9c?si=-heShiPQ-vUMPjsz

coolstanley

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Rocky battled all rounds and was behind quite a few fights but had an iron chin and tenacity and stamina.

A true fighter.

Not my thoughts. Just what I read. 😉

Ali also lost 5 times and never looked that great in any of his fights against Norton.

doubledragon

@georgebailey2 said:

@doubledragon said:
If you're going to look at who the greatest heavyweight of all-time really is, you have to look at who they beat, their resume. While Rocky Marciano was unbeaten, his competition was nowhere near the level of Muhammad Ali's >

After all. Joe Louis was 75...check that.....137 years old when Marciano fought him.
https://youtu.be/0LPddiQXD9c?si=-heShiPQ-vUMPjsz

Classic! 😂😂😂😂

JoeBanzai

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

Coming back with evidence that Ali didn't need to hit the other guy as muck in order to KNOCK HIM OUT.

Can't wait to see what's next.

4for4

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

Coming back with evidence that Ali didn't need to hit the other guy as muck in order to KNOCK HIM OUT.

Can't wait to see what's next.

Ali lost 5 fights.
Rocky 0.

Who did Ali knock out in the 5 fights he lost ?
How many times did Rocky get KO’d

Thanks coolstanley 😎

4for4

@coolstanley said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Rocky battled all rounds and was behind quite a few fights but had an iron chin and tenacity and stamina.

A true fighter.

Not my thoughts. Just what I read. 😉

Ali also lost 5 times and never looked that great in any of his fights against Norton.

Was Rocky the movie based on Marciano ?

coolstanley

@4for4 said:

@coolstanley said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Rocky battled all rounds and was behind quite a few fights but had an iron chin and tenacity and stamina.

A true fighter.

Not my thoughts. Just what I read. 😉

Ali also lost 5 times and never looked that great in any of his fights against Norton.

Was Rocky the movie based on Marciano ?

Marciano was mentioned in the 1st movie, but i think the movie was inspired from Chuck Wepner.

4for4

Just read that Joe Louis was the same size of Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson when Rocky Marciano beat him. Louis age 37 and the more polished boxer.

Also heard Ali did this a lot, while Rocky never did. Rocky actually fought people and wasn’t hiding on the ropes.

4for4

Norton the better fighter.
Ali the crowd favorite wherever he went based on what I’ve read.

4for4

OK.

So what’s the reasons for Rocky not being the best ever.
Can’t find any so far.

Thanks

I understand how good Ali was.
Very popular also.

coolstanley

Norton got robbed in that last fight.

4for4

@coolstanley said:
Norton got robbed in that last fight.

What are the reasons besides Ali being so popular and such high TV ratings ? Stats ?

doubledragon

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

Coming back with evidence that Ali didn't need to hit the other guy as muck in order to KNOCK HIM OUT.

Can't wait to see what's next.

Ali lost 5 fights.
Rocky 0.

Who did Ali knock out in the 5 fights he lost ?
How many times did Rocky get KO’d

Thanks coolstanley 😎

And Sugar Ray Robinson had 19 losses on his record, does that mean that Sven Ottke, who retired unbeaten, was greater than Robinson? LOL.

JoeBanzai

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Don't know (or care) who said that, but it's the single stupidest statement made in the history of language.

😂😂😂

Not mine!!!!
Read that Ali usually or always got out punched in all his big fights ???

Coming back with evidence that Ali didn't need to hit the other guy as muck in order to KNOCK HIM OUT.

Can't wait to see what's next.

Ali lost 5 fights.
Rocky 0.

Who did Ali knock out in the 5 fights he lost ?
How many times did Rocky get KO’d

Thanks coolstanley 😎

This is correct, Rocky was never beaten, while Ali lost 5 fights, however Ali then defeated 3 of the five fighters who beat him and by the time he lost to Holmes and Berbick, he was WAY past his prime.

@4for4 said:

@coolstanley said:

@4for4 said:
Ali barely fought in those fights.
He laid against the ropes and covered his face.

Rocky battled all rounds and was behind quite a few fights but had an iron chin and tenacity and stamina.

A true fighter.

Not my thoughts. Just what I read. 😉

Ali also lost 5 times and never looked that great in any of his fights against Norton.

Was Rocky the movie based on Marciano ?

Based on an Ali fight actually, against Wepner.

@4for4 said:
OK.

So what’s the reasons for Rocky not being the best ever.
Can’t find any so far.

Thanks

I understand how good Ali was.
Very popular also.

The argument against Marciano was he didn't beat as good of fighters as Ali.

I don't think you have the SLIGHTEST idea of how good Ali was.

@4for4 said:

@coolstanley said:
Norton got robbed in that last fight.

What are the reasons besides Ali being so popular and such high TV ratings ? Stats ?

Norton LOST the fight. If you are basing your arguments on wins and losses, you can't just decide to change to "should have" mode.......he lost. Ken's unorthodox style did give Ali trouble. Ken won a split decision in the first fight, while Ali won a unanimous decision in the final fight.

Despite Ali not having the best record, he was the GOAT!

Can't dismiss Marciano from the discussion though.

If stan is on your side, you might want to reexamine your position.

coolstanley

Nah, Norton clearly beat Ali in that 3rd fight. Ali’s corner at the end of the fight made that obvious. If it was at all close, and it really wasn’t, do you think Norton’s corner would have told him to play it safe in round 15? The punch stats are available for this fight, just check it out.
Ali clearly lost nine rounds through the 14th. Round 15 shouldn’t have mattered. But Ali had the boxing world by the testicles, that’s why they always prolonged his legacy.

Even Ali admitted that Norton won that 3rd fight.

But just like in any other sport, its hard to compare different eras.

doubledragon

True boxing fans know, no one beat the kind of guys Ali beat, his era was the most brutal era in heavyweight history, and he dominated it. Guys that should have destroyed him, Sonny Liston should have been the fighter of the decade in the 1960s, he was brutal destruction personified, the most intimidating fighter of all-time, he had most guys beat before they entered the ring, he was that intimidating. He could give you a look that was cold as ice, and he had these huge hands, which he used to pummel his opponents senseless. He should have been the fighter of the decade in the 60s, but he ran into Ali.

4for4

@doubledragon said:
True boxing fans know, no one beat the kind of guys Ali beat, his era was the most brutal era in heavyweight history, and he dominated it. Guys that should have destroyed him, Sonny Liston should have been the fighter of the decade in the 1960s, he was brutal destruction personified, the most intimidating fighter of all-time, he had most guys beat before they entered the ring, he was that intimidating. He could give you a look that was cold as ice, and he had these huge hands, which he used to pummel his opponents senseless. He should have been the fighter of the decade in the 60s, but he ran into Ali.

Sonny Liston 4 losses
Ali. 4 losses
Rocky. Unbeaten

Being afraid can work towards your advantage. Being overconfident can work against you.

Seems like Liston lost to other guys before “running into Ali”

If it’s a mono y mono sport then Marciano did the best mono y mono success in heavyweight boxing history .

Are you agreeable with that ?

Please show proof that Marcianos opponents weren’t equal?

They all were better !!!!!
He had the shortest reach in heavyweight history !!!!!

He beat a guy the size of Mike Tyson.

Everyone he fought was physically superior to him !

Can Ali say the same ?

4for4

33 out of 49 fights he was outweighed and outreached.

4for4

Now this is funny.

doubledragon

LOL, If Marciano fought Sonny Liston, Liston would kill him, Marciano with his short arms would have to get in close to Liston, not a good idea, Marciano never fought anyone with the type of power Liston had. Yes, Marciano was unbeaten, but who the heck did he fight? Jersey Joe Walcott twice, Ezzard Charles twice, Archie Moore and a washed up Joe Louis, the rest of his resume is a bunch of no name guys I've never even heard of, Ali fought and beat a slew of all-time greats and ranked contenders in the Golden age of the heavyweight division. Do me a favor, go on some of the boxing forums online and start talking about how Marciano was the greatest heavyweight of all-time, you'll get laughed off the page. Marciano isn't even the second greatest heavyweight of all time, Joe Louis is, 11 and a half years as heavyweight champion, 26 title defenses, by the time he got to Marciano, he was shot to pieces, he only took the fight because he needed the money and it was his last fight ever. Just because someone has a 0 in their record doesn't mean they are the greatest. If prime Ali fought Marciano, prime Ali the 60s version, not the shot to pieces version of the 70s, the 60s Ali would dance circles around Marciano and pepper him with the jab, and hit him with combinations and outpoint him easily, no way in hell Marciano outboxes prime Ali.

doubledragon

Here you go, dont take my word for it, here's a poll done by 30 of the most hardcore boxing fanatics , trainers, boxing historians, and press people that covered many fights over the years, but I guess they're just idiots too right, they don't know what they're talking about because Marciano had a 0 on his record right?

https://www.ringtv.com/488242-ring-greatest-heavyweight-time/

doubledragon

It's ridiculous listening to half assed boxing fans try to talk about the sport. Sugar Ray Robinson had 19 losses on his record, but he is considered the greatest pound for pound fighter that ever lived, I wonder why? The term pound for pound was created because of him. If you take the time to study him, look at the film, read about him you would understand why. But I guess he couldn't possibly be the greatest because he had 19 losses right?

doubledragon

You want to see the kind of violence Ray Robinson was capable of, the type of war he was capable of waging? Watch Ray Robinson vs Jake Lamotta 6, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, the tough as nails Jake Lamotta throws everything and the kitchen sink at Robinson, but Robinson is just an animal, no middleweight in history beats Robinson this night.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sKynWce-loE

4for4

From what I read Rocky knocks out Ali if it’s a rope a dope fight.
Ali beats Rocky if he dances and jabs all fight.

Ok. Thanks for the discussion.
Now I’ve learned a bit more.

doubledragon

I'm sorry for being so intense, I just love this sport, its by far my favorite, nothing even comes close. I hang out on boxing forums every day, soaking up knowledge, watching fights on YouTube, I eat sleep and breathe this sport.

galaxy27

@doubledragon said:

I'm sorry (not sorry) for being so intense

fixed it for you. i love it when you get fired up lol

doubledragon

@galaxy27 said:

@doubledragon said:

I'm sorry (not sorry) for being so intense

fixed it for you. i love it when you get fired up lol

LOL, it happens every now and then, I don't want anyone to take it personal though, just very passionate about certain things, I love all you guys.

doubledragon

Just one more thing about Ali, he actually ruined two guys becoming the fighters of their decades, Sonny Liston in the 60s and George Foreman in the 70s. Leading up to Zaire, Foreman was a mean, intimidating, monster, a bully, he liked to brutalize his opponents, he was a force of nature that was destroying everything in his path, until he ran into Ali. So he actually ruined two fighters becoming the fighters of their decades, Liston and Foreman, that's how great Ali was. This photo, which I own, signifies 70s George Foreman very well, just a brutal man.

doubledragon

To show you how brutal Foreman was in the early 70s, most people pick 70s Foreman to KO prime Mike Tyson in a fantasy matchup, Foreman's fists were like sledgehammers, watching him hit the heavy bag demonstrated his raw power. This is an excerpt from the documentary "When We Were Kings", about the Zaire Rumble in the Jungle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ApQlzehYyfo

doubledragon

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make was, these are the type of guys Ali went up against and defeated, some of the scariest, most brutal guys in the sports history.

doubledragon

Here's a taste of Sonny Liston.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dy2xoaYxpW0&pp=ygUUT25ueSBsaXN0b24gaGFuemFnb2Q%3D

doubledragon

George Foreman, brutal destruction.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HC6KRan48u0&pp=ygUYR2VvcmdlIGZvcmVtYW4gaGFuemFnb2Qg

4for4

@doubledragon said:
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make was, these are the type of guys Ali went up against and defeated, some of the scariest, most brutal guys in the sports history.

In almost all these fights Ali was the same size with the same reach with his foe.
He was on par with his opponent.

In 3/4ths of Rocky’s fights he was outweighed and always had the shorter reach.

Yet you claim Ali was more at a disadvantage then Marciano.

I don’t see it that way at all.

You say Ali’s guys were mean.
Well, so was my principal in middle school. Marciano wouldn’t of been afraid of him either.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I greatly appreciate it 😊

doubledragon

@4for4 said:

@doubledragon said:
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make was, these are the type of guys Ali went up against and defeated, some of the scariest, most brutal guys in the sports history.

In almost all these fights Ali was the same size with the same reach with his foe.
He was on par with his opponent.

In 3/4ths of Rocky’s fights he was outweighed and always had the shorter reach.

Yet you claim Ali was more at a disadvantage then Marciano.

I don’t see it that way at all.

You say Ali’s guys were mean.
Well, so was my principal in middle school. Marciano wouldn’t of been afraid of him either.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I greatly appreciate it 😊

No, the point I'm trying to make is, Ali fought and beat guys that he shouldn't have been able to beat, guys that could your lights out with one punch, vicious fighters. You say Rocky Marciano was at a disadvantage, being at a disadvantage really doesn't matter when you're fighting a bunch of tomato cans.

doubledragon

I like Marciano, I really do, I collect him, but his competition was just weak, period. Ezzard Charles, a shot Joe Louis, Archie Moore, and a washed up Joe Walcott, that's the cream of the crop, it's a weak resume, there's just no way he's the greatest heavyweight that ever lived with that resume.

4for4

Tomato cans ? I’m sorry but both these guys below look like they could beat Ali and Frazier. Nice chatting !!!

doubledragon

@4for4 said:
Tomato cans ? I’m sorry but both these guys below look like they could beat Ali and Frazier. Nice chatting !!!

I gave credit to Marciano for beating Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis. By tomato cans, I meant the rest of the 40+ fighters he fought, tomato cans. Every fighters record is padded with nobody's, but Marcianos record is littered with nobody's.

doubledragon

It's funny, during one of Ali's fights with Liston, some of Sonny Liston's shoulder ointment got into Ali's eye, yet half blind, Ali was still able go out there and beat the most murderous puncher of that era.

doubledragon

Look at the speed of prime Ali, a 12 punch combination.

coolstanley

Marciano - the most conditioned boxer of all time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyNo1ehxyo

coolstanley

The main reason why I will probably never think that Ali was the GOAT is because of Frazier, Norton, and Spinks. All 3 had something in common - They beat Ali the first time they fought him.