The start of PCGS!

Zoins

I just ran across the following bit of history from JD published on Great Collections now:

John Dannreuther said:
I remember the meeting we had very clearly. We were in one of our hotel rooms after a coin show in 1985. We had a meeting night after night after the bourse closed to discuss our "book research project" that turned into PCGS. David walks in and holds up the very first slabbed coin and announces, 'instead of writing books about coins, let’s do something revolutionary. We can grade and encapsulate coins and guarantee them.' We instantly knew this was going to be the future of the coin industry.

It's also good to read David's quote on it's own:

@homerunhall said:
Instead of writing books about coins, let’s do something revolutionary. We can grade and encapsulate coins and guarantee them.

From this story, it appears that the others did not know about the TPG project until @homerunhall pulled out the slab. So did David come up with the idea, name and slab on his own before sharing it with other co-founders: Silvano DiGenova, Bruce Amspacher, Gordon Wrubel, Van Simmons, John Danreuther, and Steve Cyrkin?

Some other questions:

Who else was at this initial meeting?

What was the book going to be on and did it ever get published?

Here's the coin which JD donated for sale with the proceeds going to Witter University. It would be great for this to have an in-holder TrueView, but would they leave the cert number blank?

keyman64

I enjoyed reading the write-up as well. It is a nice bit of numismatic history.

Zoins

Some more interesting history on this slab's use of the green cardboard stock for this slab seen on the Gen 1.2 slabs while the production Gen 1.0 and 1.1 slabs used white unribbed cardboard:

Great Collections said:
This prototype was mentioned in a roundtable discussion hosted by CoinWorld in 2016 featuring PCGS founders David Hall, Van Simmons, Gordon Wrubel and Dannreuther, where it was mentioned as likely the very first encapsulated coin. Dannreuther went on to explain how he considered the moment David Hall presented the prototype holder to be the birth of PCGS.

PCGS started grading and encapsulating coins in 1986 with the 108 serial number prefix using white labels. It was their original intent to launch with the green label, however, when the operations staff went to print from the green paper stock, the printer would jam, and so they had to start with white printed labels. A week or so later, the printer issue was fixed, and they continued with green labels. The 108-prefix coins with the white label sell for substantial premiums to collectors who have come to appreciate how much PCGS has changed the collecting community. On June 4, 2023, GreatCollections auctioned a 1955 Franklin Half Dollar White Rattler PCGS Holder, serial number 1080286 for $9,592 - almost 100x the PCGS Price Guide value of $115.

BStrauss3

It's a nice story, but I have problems believing it.

That slab is a very finished product. That means that a whole lot of engineering and expensive mold-making had already been completed. A custom horn for a sonic sealer had been created. etc.

How many test cycles did the product go through to get to what we see?

Here is a thesis from 1986 found on Google... https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1676&context=theses

This reports a survey of 24 molds costing between $3,900 and $72,000. (The thesis also says a low-volume aluminum mold would cost about 80% of the tool steel version).

Where did the seed money come from? How did nobody on the team know about this?

Zoins

@BStrauss3 said:
It's a nice story, but I have problems believing it.

That slab is a very finished product. That means that a whole lot of engineering and expensive mold-making had already been completed. A custom horn for a sonic sealer had been created. etc.

How many test cycles did the product go through to get to what we see?

Here is a thesis from 1986 found on Google... https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1676&context=theses

This reports a survey of 24 molds costing between $3,900 and $72,000. (The thesis also says a low-volume aluminum mold would cost about 80% of the tool steel version).

Where did the seed money come from? How did nobody on the team know about this?

It is an interesting story. It comes across as David Hall coming up with the idea, name, and initial prototype before introducing the idea to the other co-founders. Wonder if David can fill us in on this. Calling @homerunhall

U1chicago

@BStrauss3 said:
It's a nice story, but I have problems believing it.

That slab is a very finished product. That means that a whole lot of engineering and expensive mold-making had already been completed. A custom horn for a sonic sealer had been created. etc.

How many test cycles did the product go through to get to what we see?

Here is a thesis from 1986 found on Google... https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1676&context=theses

This reports a survey of 24 molds costing between $3,900 and $72,000. (The thesis also says a low-volume aluminum mold would cost about 80% of the tool steel version).

Where did the seed money come from? How did nobody on the team know about this?

I also doubted that this was the first slab when I saw the picture. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it has the 1.2 style label. It seems like something that might have been done as a test once slabbing had already started.

Zoins

This coin was mentioned in a CoinWorld 2016 roundtable discussion per GC. I found the video on YouTube where JD mentions this from minutes 15:40 to 17:20 linked below. The coin is mentioned but not shown in the video.

Great Collections said:
This prototype was mentioned in a roundtable discussion hosted by CoinWorld in 2016 featuring PCGS founders David Hall, Van Simmons, Gordon Wrubel and Dannreuther, where it was mentioned as likely the very first encapsulated coin. Dannreuther went on to explain how he considered the moment David Hall presented the prototype holder to be the birth of PCGS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCYIjDQEtR8

Cameonut

I've owned this "not so finished" product for a long time now - never seen another like it. Besides being a medal instead of a coin, the label is typed - never seen that either. If anyone has any insight into this slab, I'd appreciate some feedback. PCGS does recognize the medal - PCGS #413542 (no date - pop 21). Perhaps this item was issued too late to be an early slab as Reagan was President from 1981 to 1989.

An observation: The "prototype" label has straight edges as if cut with a scissors - my slab label appears to be perforated.

MetroD

@Cameonut said:
[...]
Perhaps this item was issued too late to be an early slab as Reagan was President from 1981 to 1989.
[...]

How big is the medal?

It looks like it might be the official Mint medal for Reagan's first term. According to this article, the medal was available for sale in early 1983, in 1 5/16 and 3.0 inch sizes.

Edited - corrected a mistake in the size of the smaller diameter offering.

CaptHenway

Was the coin show in Las Vegas or Atlantic City? Where else would you get a three year old quarter that looks that bad?

alaura22

Maybe a parking lot find!

keyman64

@Zoins said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCYIjDQEtR8

I watched the entire video and it was quite enjoyable. All types of good information in there. I really liked the part where they discussed how much graders were paid in the 80s. Wow!

Cameonut

How big is the medal?

It looks like it might be the official Mint medal for Reagan's first term. According to this article, the medal was available for sale in early 1983, in 1 5/16 and 3.0 inch sizes.

Edited - corrected a mistake in the size of the smaller diameter offering.

Thanks for that - my medal measures about 33 mm (1.3") in diameter, so it matches the 1 5/16 Mint medal. The PCGS number is in the Mint medal section. The NYT article was printed 2/20/83, so these medals were available when PCGS was started.

messydesk

Here's a prototype of the submission form.

ricko

It seems this could easily be verified. Participants are alive and well. Let's have some direct input. Cheers, RickO

coinbuf

I was not there so I do not know what happened, but as a few have pointed out it seems rather unlikely that a finished product like the subject of this thread would have been available at that time.

GoldFinger1969

I'm curious.....at that time I don't believe PCGS graded "modern" coins (i.e., ASEs etc.). But you had a huge submission surge when PCGS first started.

Anybody remember what the turnaround times to get a few coins graded was back in late-1986 or 1987 ? How about a few years later, is that how long it took for the lines to disappear ?

Zoins

@ricko said:
It seems this could easily be verified. Participants are alive and well. Let's have some direct input. Cheers, RickO

David Hall is on the forums as @homerunhall and used to post quite bit. Here's to hoping he’ll come back!

FlyingAl

I am also skeptical that the funds to make a holder, and the time needed to make it functional, were a complete secret before this meeting.

An official PCGS statement backing up the claim would be a huge help.

Nysoto

@BStrauss3 stated:

This reports a survey of 24 molds costing between $3,900 and $72,000. (The thesis also says a low-volume aluminum mold would cost about 80% of the tool steel version).

Interesting research. Aluminum machines faster than steel which reduces cost, as CNC machining is expensive. Design and fabrication labor costs are about 3 to 4x more expensive now compared to 1986. Small injection mold dies for the size of a coin slab take about four months from design start to fabrication complete. The flow time could be compressed 50%, which will cost a lot more money from the tooling supplier.

logger7

Wasn't Anacs grading beforehand and others?

Mark Salzberg at NGC recently retired, and he described his experience:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11816/salzberg-retirement/#:~:text=A visionary leader in the,felt for decades to come.&text=Mark Salzberg, one of the,the end of June 2023.

oreville

I understand that Silvano DiGenova recruited John Albanese to be one of the later co-founders of PCGS because of his expertise in grading gold coins.

however John Albanese left PCGS a year later to start NGC . Mark Salzberg joined NGC in 1988.

John Albanese is the only one to have founded or co-founded PCGS NGC and CAC.

oreville

I was lucky enough to acquire a complete dealer 1987 binder handbook for submitting coins to NGC for grading.

Now THAT is real history !!

BAJJERFAN

@logger7 said:
Wasn't Anacs grading beforehand and others?

Mark Salzberg at NGC recently retired, and he described his experience:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11816/salzberg-retirement/#:~:text=A visionary leader in the,felt for decades to come.&text=Mark Salzberg, one of the,the end of June 2023.

ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

Zoins

@BAJJERFAN said:

@logger7 said:
Wasn't Anacs grading beforehand and others?

Mark Salzberg at NGC recently retired, and he described his experience:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11816/salzberg-retirement/#:~:text=A visionary leader in the,felt for decades to come.&text=Mark Salzberg, one of the,the end of June 2023.

ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

Did ACG/Alan Hagar guarantee coins? David's quote indicates the guarantee was part of the revolution with the following:

@homerunhall said:
Instead of writing books about coins, let’s do something revolutionary. We can grade and encapsulate coins and guarantee them.

I found the following archived page from 2007 which mentions many things including being "certified and authenticated" but not a guarantee:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071005172525/http://www.asa-accugrade.com/coins.htm

Also of note, PCGS paid ACG $100,000!

Alan Hagar said:
To date ASA Accugrade, Inc., has graded and authenticated over 630,000 individual items valued at over $380 million dollars. We are oldest slab certification service in America. The reason...

• We offer the lowest prices in the industry- 30% to 50% lower.
• Our lowest mail order fee is $6.95, our highest, $35 a coin.
• We carry individual coin holder dies for each coin size - over 50 different sizes.
• We have the smallest NON-PVC slab holder on the market.
• The AGC holder is 30% - 50% lighter than the competition's.
• Our holder is 1/3 smaller than the competition.
• Our holder is stackable, scratch resistant, and fits in the standard 2x2 coin box.
• Our holder is twice as strong as the competition's.
• We do not use rubber or soft inserts due to PVC problems. We use individual dies.

We're the oldest slab certification Company in the U.S.

Accugrade went on to establish the industry standard by which all coin grading services are operated today. We submitted the design for the slab holders for ANACS and Blanchard and Co. PCGS has paid us $100,000 for our expertise, patents, and inventions. With more than 20 million coins certified and growing by more than a million coins a year, Mr. Hager's invention has generated $300 million in certification fees to those grading services since 1985.

We've Established Our Expertise

The Accugrade grading system is based on strike and luster not on Mint State. With more than 12,000 Accugrade books sold to date, they were the number one selling books in their field at that time. Alan Hager has conducted numerous seminars on the Accugrade strike and luster system throughout his career.

ASA-Accugrade is the only certification service where you can have all your collectibles certified and authenticated - true one stop service.

You will never get a run-around at ASA.
We are here to serve your certification needs with the best quality, and best service at the best possible prices in the industry today!

ricko

Now we are getting into coin grading history.... Let's continue, still some questions to be answered. Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN

@Zoins said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@logger7 said:
Wasn't Anacs grading beforehand and others?

Mark Salzberg at NGC recently retired, and he described his experience:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11816/salzberg-retirement/#:~:text=A visionary leader in the,felt for decades to come.&text=Mark Salzberg, one of the,the end of June 2023.

ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

Did ACG/Alan Hagar guarantee coins? David said indicated the guarantee was part of the revolution with the following:

@homerunhall said:
Instead of writing books about coins, let’s do something revolutionary. We can grade and encapsulate coins and guarantee them.

I found the following archived page from 2007 which mentions many things including being "certified and authenticated" but not a guarantee:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071005172525/http://www.asa-accugrade.com/coins.htm

Also of note, PCGS paid ACG $100,000!

Alan Hagar said:
To date ASA Accugrade, Inc., has graded and authenticated over 630,000 individual items valued at over $380 million dollars. We are oldest slab certification service in America. The reason...

• We offer the lowest prices in the industry- 30% to 50% lower.
• Our lowest mail order fee is $6.95, our highest, $35 a coin.
• We carry individual coin holder dies for each coin size - over 50 different sizes.
• We have the smallest NON-PVC slab holder on the market.
• The AGC holder is 30% - 50% lighter than the competition's.
• Our holder is 1/3 smaller than the competition.
• Our holder is stackable, scratch resistant, and fits in the standard 2x2 coin box.
• Our holder is twice as strong as the competition's.
• We do not use rubber or soft inserts due to PVC problems. We use individual dies.

We're the oldest slab certification Company in the U.S.

Accugrade went on to establish the industry standard by which all coin grading services are operated today. We submitted the design for the slab holders for ANACS and Blanchard and Co. PCGS has paid us $100,000 for our expertise, patents, and inventions. With more than 20 million coins certified and growing by more than a million coins a year, Mr. Hager's invention has generated $300 million in certification fees to those grading services since 1985.

We've Established Our Expertise

The Accugrade grading system is based on strike and luster not on Mint State. With more than 12,000 Accugrade books sold to date, they were the number one selling books in their field at that time. Alan Hager has conducted numerous seminars on the Accugrade strike and luster system throughout his career.

ASA-Accugrade is the only certification service where you can have all your collectibles certified and authenticated - true one stop service.

You will never get a run-around at ASA.
We are here to serve your certification needs with the best quality, and best service at the best possible prices in the industry today!

This is the first I've seen where ACG grading was described. I think everyone knew they had their own system and it wasn't the Sheldon scale however coins seemed to be graded as MS, etc. Hard to guarantee a grade when only one person was likely able to grade to ACG's standard/s. There is the story where someone at a show went to Alan's table and said this coin isn't such and such a grade. AH supposedly cracked the coin out, handed it back and said you're right or something to that effect. Trying to remember if ACG brought legal action against PCGS. IIRC AH was a very good grader.

BStrauss3

@BAJJERFAN said:
ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

And SAGCE - South African Gold Coin Exchange - was doing it long before ACG.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046732/the-first-company-to-slab-coins

Zoins

@BStrauss3 said:

@BAJJERFAN said:
ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

And SAGCE - South African Gold Coin Exchange - was doing it long before ACG.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046732/the-first-company-to-slab-coins

I see they have a 100 point system.

Did SAGCE offer a guarantee?

lilolme

pointfivezero

@ricko said:
Now we are getting into coin grading history.... Let's continue, still some questions to be answered. Cheers, RickO

After reading and rereading the auction description and the comments above, it appears what everyone is struggling with is the second paragraph of the auction description on GC. Clearly, a fully encapsulated coin did not appear from thin air and some "connecting of the dots" is required to fully comprehend the creation and production process.

As a bidder on this auction, I'm focused on these two statements:

and

This, to me, is where the value of the auction lies and not the folklore of the second paragraph. I don't believe @ianrussell would have been comfortable listing the auction if the two highlighted statements above were not accurate and verifiable. He does hedge his bets later in the auction with the use of the qualifying word "likely":

And did I forget to mention, 100% of the proceeds are going to charity?

Tim

BStrauss3

@Zoins said:
I see they have a 100 point system.
Did SAGCE offer a guarantee?

I don't think so, but counterfeit Krugerrands weren't a problem back then.

The scale actually goes over 100 with bonuses. https://www.krugerrandproof.com/sagce_slabed_coins.html
https://www.thesilverforum.com/topic/31881-sagce-grading-the-krugerrand/ <-- has a 105 coin

Mine doesn't have a grade...

BStrauss3

@BAJJERFAN

PCGS has paid us $100,000 for our expertise, patents, and inventions.

PCGS has always denied licensing the patent from ACG. In fact, the patent is explicitly for a three-compartment photoslab (coin, photo, label). The common two-compartment photoslab (PCI, Global, etc.) clearly engineers around it. And a slab w/o a photo would equally not be covered.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4878579

1. A tamper-proof coin case which is comprised of a unitary assembly comprising a first substantially planar member having a first element of an interlocking means disposed circumferentially thereabout, said first planar member being joined to a second substantially planar member having a second element of said interlocking means whose shape is complementary to said first element and which is disposed circumferentially about said second planar member, said unitary assembly having a first interior retention zone shaped such that a coin can be retained within said first interior retention zone, a second interior retention zone shaped such that at least one photograph of the coin can be retained within said second interior retention zone and a third interior retention zone shaped such that a certificate for the coin can be retained within said third interior retention zone, each of said planar members having a first transparent portion located to permit observation of each side of a coin retained within said first interior retention zone, each of said planar members further comprising a second transparent portion located to permit observation of two photographs of the coin retained within said second interior retention zone and said first planar member further comprising a third transparent portion located to permit observation of a certificate for the coin retained within said third interior retention zone; wherein the exterior surfaces of said first and second planar members which do not comprise said transparent portions have a surface texture which causes at least partial opacity; and further wherein said unitary assembly is formed by ultrasonically welding said first and second planar members together.

Claims 8 and 14 also refer to three interior retention zones.

CaptHenway

@logger7 said:
Wasn't Anacs grading beforehand and others?

Mark Salzberg at NGC recently retired, and he described his experience:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11816/salzberg-retirement/#:~:text=A visionary leader in the,felt for decades to come.&amp;text=Mark Salzberg, one of the,the end of June 2023.

I was hired by ANACS starting Nov. 1, 1978, to start a grading service as an addition to the existing Authentication service. After some testing we began grading coins on March 1, 1979.

CaptHenway

@BStrauss3 said:

@BAJJERFAN said:
ACG/Alan Hagar was grading and slabbing coins prior to PCGS IIRC.

And SAGCE - South African Gold Coin Exchange - was doing it long before ACG.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046732/the-first-company-to-slab-coins

I just added a comment in that thread.

privatecoin

I'd still prefer the cricket.