So tell me who is an elite HR hitter on that list. Apples to Apples facing the same ridiculous hard pitching. Trout and Stanton are the top two and look how many less at bats they have than all the people behind them. The only person behind them is Judge that has lower at bats too.
So who is the elite HR hitters on that list??? Just Stanton?
Goldschmidt has LESS home runs than Trout and in 1,500 MORE at bats! That isn't elite for Trout? Yes, the first baseman who gets to stay healthier by playing a less demanding position needs 1,500 more at bats to still come 16 home runs short of Trout, yet that isn't elite for Trout? Get out of town...you have some of the most biased glasses on here.
I ask again, who is the elite HR on that active list? If Trout is not considered elite, then nobody on that list is. So how can there be no elite HR hitters....unless your defintion of elite is just one player and I could see that going to Staton by a hair over Trout. But then apply that same definition to every other era.
Trout has played CF during all that time. You don't think he would be healthier and get more at bats and home runs playing DH or first base like other guys on that list? That is why he gets that bump in WAR that you so easily dismiss because you "don't like it."
What do you think would have happened to Stanton's HR totals if he was forced to play centerfield?
Trout is an elite HR hitter. Take a bit out of that and swallow...because that is reality.
that is a lot of words trying to be convincing that a player who has never led his league in home runs in even a single season out of his 13 is an "elite" home run hitter.
I am not convinced.
Bias and ignorance does that. So no surprise you aren't convinced.
everyone has bias (yes, even you)
ad hominem attacks do nothing to strengthen your argument...
So tell me who is an elite HR hitter on that list. Apples to Apples facing the same ridiculous hard pitching. Trout and Stanton are the top two and look how many less at bats they have than all the people behind them. The only person behind them is Judge that has lower at bats too.
So who is the elite HR hitters on that list??? Just Stanton?
Goldschmidt has LESS home runs than Trout and in 1,500 MORE at bats! That isn't elite for Trout? Yes, the first baseman who gets to stay healthier by playing a less demanding position needs 1,500 more at bats to still come 16 home runs short of Trout, yet that isn't elite for Trout? Get out of town...you have some of the most biased glasses on here.
I ask again, who is the elite HR on that active list? If Trout is not considered elite, then nobody on that list is. So how can there be no elite HR hitters....unless your defintion of elite is just one player and I could see that going to Staton by a hair over Trout. But then apply that same definition to every other era.
Trout has played CF during all that time. You don't think he would be healthier and get more at bats and home runs playing DH or first base like other guys on that list? That is why he gets that bump in WAR that you so easily dismiss because you "don't like it."
What do you think would have happened to Stanton's HR totals if he was forced to play centerfield?
Trout is an elite HR hitter. Take a bit out of that and swallow...because that is reality.
that is a lot of words trying to be convincing that a player who has never led his league in home runs in even a single season out of his 13 is an "elite" home run hitter.
I am not convinced.
Bias and ignorance does that. So no surprise you aren't convinced.
everyone has bias (yes, even you)
ad hominem attacks do nothing to strengthen your argument...
Freeman just had ankle surgery. While hes expected to be able to do baseball activities during spring training it will still impact his off season. Baseball activities is also a key word for doing some stuff. DH isnt an option for him either unless Othani gets hurt
@Basebal21 said:
Freeman just had ankle surgery. While hes expected to be able to do baseball activities during spring training it will still impact his off season. Baseball activities is also a key word for doing some stuff. DH isnt an option for him either unless Othani gets hurt
Definitely a concern. Those things tend to get worse at age 35 not better. I hope he stays healthy in his quest for 3,000 hits, but I am much less optimistic than I was a year ago.
@Basebal21 said:
Freeman just had ankle surgery. While hes expected to be able to do baseball activities during spring training it will still impact his off season. Baseball activities is also a key word for doing some stuff. DH isnt an option for him either unless Othani gets hurt
Definitely a concern. Those things tend to get worse at age 35 not better. I hope he stays healthy in his quest for 3,000 hits, but I am much less optimistic than I was a year ago.
Id like to see him stay healthy as well, hes been a good player for a long time. I think this injury probably ends the 3000 run though. Hes like 700 short and I expect a down year with him missing his off season which assuming everything goes well probably puts him at needing like 600 at the age of 36
Well I’ve figured out an easy way to value Mike Trouts’ career. And you’re welcome in advance.
He’s 55% the player Frank Robinson was career numbers wise. In fact he has almost exactly 55% career at bats that Frank did. Some numbers like rbi dip to around 50% some like HR uptick to about 60% but overall he’s done about 55% of what Frank accomplished. And since Frank was pretty dang good in his old man years and Trout is pretty much done playing baseball that number won’t change much. If Trout did have old man years his numbers like OPS and OPS+ would dip below Franks so maybe better that Mike is done.
I have to admit Trout put in a decent but short career, accomplishing 55% of what Frank Robinson did is nothing to sneeze at. 👍
He will need to play to 38 decently healthy to get to 3,000 hits. He's got a shot. Him and altuve have shots at 3000, after that it might be a long time before anyone gets close.
So tell me who is an elite HR hitter on that list. Apples to Apples facing the same ridiculous hard pitching. Trout and Stanton are the top two and look how many less at bats they have than all the people behind them. The only person behind them is Judge that has lower at bats too.
So who is the elite HR hitters on that list??? Just Stanton?
Goldschmidt has LESS home runs than Trout and in 1,500 MORE at bats! That isn't elite for Trout? Yes, the first baseman who gets to stay healthier by playing a less demanding position needs 1,500 more at bats to still come 16 home runs short of Trout, yet that isn't elite for Trout? Get out of town...you have some of the most biased glasses on here.
I ask again, who is the elite HR on that active list? If Trout is not considered elite, then nobody on that list is. So how can there be no elite HR hitters....unless your defintion of elite is just one player and I could see that going to Staton by a hair over Trout. But then apply that same definition to every other era.
Trout has played CF during all that time. You don't think he would be healthier and get more at bats and home runs playing DH or first base like other guys on that list? That is why he gets that bump in WAR that you so easily dismiss because you "don't like it."
What do you think would have happened to Stanton's HR totals if he was forced to play centerfield?
Trout is an elite HR hitter. Take a bit out of that and swallow...because that is reality.
that is a lot of words trying to be convincing that a player who has never led his league in home runs in even a single season out of his 13 is an "elite" home run hitter.
I am not convinced.
Bias and ignorance does that. So no surprise you aren't convinced.
everyone has bias (yes, even you)
ad hominem attacks do nothing to strengthen your argument...
Well I’ve figured out an easy way to value Mike Trouts’ career. And you’re welcome in advance.
He’s 55% the player Frank Robinson was career numbers wise. In fact he has almost exactly 55% career at bats that Frank did. Some numbers like rbi dip to around 50% some like HR uptick to about 60% but overall he’s done about 55% of what Frank accomplished. And since Frank was pretty dang good in his old man years and Trout is pretty much done playing baseball that number won’t change much. If Trout did have old man years his numbers like OPS and OPS+ would dip below Franks so maybe better that Mike is done.
I have to admit Trout put in a decent but short career, accomplishing 55% of what Frank Robinson did is nothing to sneeze at. 👍
I like your analysis. now we wait for those chiming in saying: "but, but, WAR." "but, but, center field" "but, but, walks"
you are also correct in stating that 55% of Frank is nothing to sneeze at.
@Darin said:
Well I’ve figured out an easy way to value Mike Trouts’ career. And you’re welcome in advance.
He’s 55% the player Frank Robinson was career numbers wise. In fact he has almost exactly 55% career at bats that Frank did. Some numbers like rbi dip to around 50% some like HR uptick to about 60% but overall he’s done about 55% of what Frank accomplished. And since Frank was pretty dang good in his old man years and Trout is pretty much done playing baseball that number won’t change much. If Trout did have old man years his numbers like OPS and OPS+ would dip below Franks so maybe better that Mike is done.
I have to admit Trout put in a decent but short career, accomplishing 55% of what Frank Robinson did is nothing to sneeze at. 👍
Different eras. Trout has already been viewed as the King of his era, hence why his cards are still so expensive. As good as Frank Robinsons is and having a better career(really just longer) than Trout, Robinson himself was overshadowed in his era, and that is why his cards were always cheaper relative to his peers.
Trout sits at an 86 WAR and Frank Robinson at a 107 WAR. Robinson is a vastly underrated, but look at Trout. Imagine had Trout not been injured and he would already be on par with Robinson already and in far less games, that is how good Trout was.
The next four or five years will determine a lot. If Trout hits 30 HR a year for four years while playing 135 games with some CF, he wil get over 100 WAR and over 500 Home runs and will retain being the best player of his era(with Judge or Ohtani maybe passing him if they have long careers too but they also have truncated years and are older too, and Ohtani needs to pitch more to take that title).
You are looking at cards and viewpoints going forward. Do you really think that the baseball industry and its consumers are going to go backwards and eliminate stats like WAR or WPA or RE24 in favor of hit totals?
Even though you guys don't 'like' WAR or the better measurements, the industry does and it is becoming common place for its consumers, and the fans who dislike those stats are going the way of the dinosaur slowly but surely.
Did you also not buy Nvidia stock and opt for investing in a paper stationary store because you don't like computers and like the old way better??
@olb31 said:
He will need to play to 38 decently healthy to get to 3,000 hits. He's got a shot. Him and altuve have shots at 3000, after that it might be a long time before anyone gets close.
Interesting, that is similar to Trout with 500 HR. I would say Trout is the better bet to get 500 HR. Trout hits them long and often, and is just a matter of playing 130 games a year which would be about 30 HR a year for Trout. Four years of that and he is at 500 HR and may also be the last 500 HR club member for a while(unless Judge stays healthy).
Freeman having Ohtani is going to block his DH at bats. Trout may get some DH at bats going forward to get 500 HR...and the ironic thing is people will rip Trout for being a DH with no defensive value when in the past they ripped him for getting value for playing CF, lol. That would be the typical biased sports fan there of course.
48swell- at age 32 Robinson’s War was 81 and Trout 86 so not much difference. I doubt if Trout gets to 100 as he can’t even stay on the field more than 40 games a year.
@Darin said:
48swell- at age 32 Robinson’s War was 81 and Trout 86 so not much difference. I doubt if Trout gets to 100 as he can’t even stay on the field more than 40 games a year.
Yes, it took Robinson 1,514 more plate appearances to still be behind. I would never diminish how good Robinson was, but 1,514 more plate appearances to still be behind Trout isn't a good case for the argument you are making. It just shows how good Trout was.
And in just raw laymen's terms, Robinson hit 418 HR to Trout 378 in that time frame and it took Robinsons 1,514 more plate appearances to do that. 40 more home runs more in basically three more years worth of at bats for Robinson.
As for getting to 100 WAR, we are going to find out in the next four years. It is an interesting topic that will be answered. I wouldn't bet on it myself, but I think it is a very real possibility that Trout gets 100 WAR and over 500 home runs and in far less games than others who were in that same ballpark from his era. At that point he is an immortal, especially when measured vs his peers.
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
So tell me who is an elite HR hitter on that list. Apples to Apples facing the same ridiculous hard pitching. Trout and Stanton are the top two and look how many less at bats they have than all the people behind them. The only person behind them is Judge that has lower at bats too.
So who is the elite HR hitters on that list??? Just Stanton?
Goldschmidt has LESS home runs than Trout and in 1,500 MORE at bats! That isn't elite for Trout? Yes, the first baseman who gets to stay healthier by playing a less demanding position needs 1,500 more at bats to still come 16 home runs short of Trout, yet that isn't elite for Trout? Get out of town...you have some of the most biased glasses on here.
I ask again, who is the elite HR on that active list? If Trout is not considered elite, then nobody on that list is. So how can there be no elite HR hitters....unless your defintion of elite is just one player and I could see that going to Staton by a hair over Trout. But then apply that same definition to every other era.
Trout has played CF during all that time. You don't think he would be healthier and get more at bats and home runs playing DH or first base like other guys on that list? That is why he gets that bump in WAR that you so easily dismiss because you "don't like it."
What do you think would have happened to Stanton's HR totals if he was forced to play centerfield?
Trout is an elite HR hitter. Take a bit out of that and swallow...because that is reality.
that is a lot of words trying to be convincing that a player who has never led his league in home runs in even a single season out of his 13 is an "elite" home run hitter.
I am not convinced.
Bias and ignorance does that. So no surprise you aren't convinced.
everyone has bias (yes, even you)
ad hominem attacks do nothing to strengthen your argument...
Well I’ve figured out an easy way to value Mike Trouts’ career. And you’re welcome in advance.
He’s 55% the player Frank Robinson was career numbers wise. In fact he has almost exactly 55% career at bats that Frank did. Some numbers like rbi dip to around 50% some like HR uptick to about 60% but overall he’s done about 55% of what Frank accomplished. And since Frank was pretty dang good in his old man years and Trout is pretty much done playing baseball that number won’t change much. If Trout did have old man years his numbers like OPS and OPS+ would dip below Franks so maybe better that Mike is done.
I have to admit Trout put in a decent but short career, accomplishing 55% of what Frank Robinson did is nothing to sneeze at. 👍
I like your analysis. now we wait for those chiming in saying: "but, but, WAR." "but, but, center field" "but, but, walks"
you are also correct in stating that 55% of Frank is nothing to sneeze at.
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
As for the inaccurate 55% comment....Trout is trailing Robinson in WAR 107 to 86...but Trout has done that in about 55% LESS plate appearances than Robinson. That is a more accurate assessment especially for players from different eras.
So if you are going to ignore WAR or other more accurate measurements because they are new and not a 'real stat', then apply that same standard to Trout's defense, and then only look at the "real" and timeless stats and Trout is an all time defender in center field. Yearly elite and all time elite.
1948 -- Trout stats are great and he's had great career. But when we talk cards, people have paid millions for Trout and very little for freeman. My original post is why and is this about to change some. I have no issues with Mike, seems like a good person and is a very good player. But I just don't understand the obsession collectors have with him. WHile his number are way above average his card prices rival Mantle.
As is stands currently, I doubt Mike would rank as one of the top 25 outfielders of all time, much less in the Class with Mickey or willie or hank or ted or stan. But people seem to want to plunk down 10 times what they would for a mickey to get a Trout, makes no sense to me.
Freddie, while not as flashy, has put together a very nice career. His walk-off GS in game, the only one in WS history, will certainly keep freddie on the minds of collectors for a very long time. Mike just doesn't have any playoff moments much less a WS moment like that.
@olb31 said:
1948 -- Trout stats are great and he's had great career. But when we talk cards, people have paid millions for Trout and very little for freeman. My original post is why and is this about to change some. I have no issues with Mike, seems like a good person and is a very good player. But I just don't understand the obsession collectors have with him. WHile his number are way above average his card prices rival Mantle.
As is stands currently, I doubt Mike would rank as one of the top 25 outfielders of all time, much less in the Class with Mickey or willie or hank or ted or stan. But people seem to want to plunk down 10 times what they would for a mickey to get a Trout, makes no sense to me.
Freddie, while not as flashy, has put together a very nice career. His walk-off GS in game, the only one in WS history, will certainly keep freddie on the minds of collectors for a very long time. Mike just doesn't have any playoff moments much less a WS moment like that.
Finally a fair post in a sea of bias.
The only centerfielders in history that have a higher WAR than Trout are Mays, Mantle, and Cobb(and Cobb played LF too).
That isn't a high enough ranking for you historically for Trout? You see a few zealots discount it, but you also see countless people putting their money down to cement that.
I'm not going to rehash all I wrote. An 86 WAR in almost 50% less at bats is certainly viewed by many as better than a 107 WAR in 50% more at bats. Whether someone doesn't understand that or has bias, it doesn't matter, because enough people see that as a top 20 outfielder already....and they have spent accordingly on is cards and still are.
Trout is the best of his era. Cross era comparisons are hard. He is the best of his era though and that is recognized and valued accordingly. Three time MVP also screams that.
Why else do you think they are spending on Trout? He doesn't have those moments you talk about, yet he commands 3x the price of a Miguel Cabrera PSA 10 Traded rookie in a similar comparison of Traded rookie cards, and Cabrera has 3k hits and 500 HR. Cabrera has a 67 lifetime WAR and is done. So it does make a lot of sense that Trout should be worth more than Cabrera, because people DO understand positional value etc.
Trout is well ahead of Freeman right now and the story is not written yet. Like I mentioned above, if Trout gets 100 WAR and 500 HR, he is clearly the best of his era(of any position). Whether or not someone can't understand how to rank that historically is a different story.
What is Freeman's equivalent to Cabrera's 2000 Topps Traded and Trout's 2011 Topps traded RC in PSA 10?
Trout is about $800 and he has 86 WAR
Cabrera is about $240 and he has a 67 WAR
Freeman? You fill in that blank because I don't know.
Whether people like it or not, that 86 WAR for Trout is pretty darn spot on(read above threads). So if Trout retired now he is above Cabrera. There is still speculation in those Trout prices though and you are correct that those prices could fall some. Cabrera's are locked in.
Cabrera is more similar to Freeman. Ironically, it is a stat like WAR that will put Freeman ahead of Cabrera, despite Cabrera having 3k and 500, of which Freeman won't match.
Trout is in the HOF already, whether the zealots and naysayers like it or not and his card prices reflect that. I am sure people are hoping for a return to health for Trout so he can reach 100 WAR and 500 HR and his cards may even go up still from where they are right now(relative to the overall market ups and downs).
Freeman is still speculation too. He would not be in the HOF if he never played another game. I give Freeman the most respect possible for gaming out that injury in the playoffs. Mad respect. What stinks though is that it might end up costing him career wise, which would be a terrible payment for that.
Last year I was thinking like you with Freeman. Good call at upside. I hope he stays healthy and gets 3k and you make a lot of money off his cards. However, that doesn't mean Trout's cards will go down to Freeman. Three MVP's and the best of his era has obviously carried a lot of weight with collectors, despite the few zealots out there.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
Craig, those aren't metrics. Putouts and fielding percentage are the 'real' stats according to the philosophies of the pundits of the advanced offensive stats. Not saying I believe they are...but you have said a lot of words to where it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for you to just dismiss Trout's all time ranking in CF in both putouts and fielding percentage...'actual real stats'.
There is a reason why guys like Juan Soto don't play CF. I'm not saying other RF couldn't play CF(and that is where I go into the debatable portion of the value of defense, but even though it is debatable there is no doubt Trout earned his 'bump' as a CF as much as any other slugging CF did in history).
Freeman has the luxury to extend his games total (and his career) by playing first base. Trout should do that now too(but at DH since they have a young first baseman now).
What might end up happening is that Trout ends up as a DH who rarely walks but hits 35 HR a year to get to 520 HR, and then people will be saying, "well he is only a DH and his OB% is only league average," which would be valid criticism at that point, but ironic considering the unfounded garbage I've seen spewed in this thread.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
Craig, those aren't metrics. Putouts and fielding percentage are the 'real' stats according to the philosophies of the pundits of the advanced offensive stats. Not saying I believe they are...but you have said a lot of words to where it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for you to just dismiss Trout's all time ranking in CF in both putouts and fielding percentage...'actual real stats'.
There is a reason why guys like Juan Soto don't play CF. I'm not saying other RF couldn't play CF(and that is where I go into the debatable portion of the value of defense, but even though it is debatable there is no doubt Trout earned his 'bump' as a CF as much as any other slugging CF did in history).
Freeman has the luxury to extend his games total (and his career) by playing first base. Trout should do that now too(but at DH since they have a young first baseman now).
What might end up happening is that Trout ends up as a DH who rarely walks but hits 35 HR a year to get to 520 HR, and then people will be saying, "well he is only a DH and his OB% is only league average," which would be valid criticism at that point, but ironic considering the unfounded garbage I've seen spewed in this thread.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
Craig, those aren't metrics. Putouts and fielding percentage are the 'real' stats according to the philosophies of the pundits of the advanced offensive stats. Not saying I believe they are...but you have said a lot of words to where it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for you to just dismiss Trout's all time ranking in CF in both putouts and fielding percentage...'actual real stats'.
There is a reason why guys like Juan Soto don't play CF. I'm not saying other RF couldn't play CF(and that is where I go into the debatable portion of the value of defense, but even though it is debatable there is no doubt Trout earned his 'bump' as a CF as much as any other slugging CF did in history).
Freeman has the luxury to extend his games total (and his career) by playing first base. Trout should do that now too(but at DH since they have a young first baseman now).
What might end up happening is that Trout ends up as a DH who rarely walks but hits 35 HR a year to get to 520 HR, and then people will be saying, "well he is only a DH and his OB% is only league average," which would be valid criticism at that point, but ironic considering the unfounded garbage I've seen spewed in this thread.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
Craig, those aren't metrics. Putouts and fielding percentage are the 'real' stats according to the philosophies of the pundits of the advanced offensive stats. Not saying I believe they are...but you have said a lot of words to where it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for you to just dismiss Trout's all time ranking in CF in both putouts and fielding percentage...'actual real stats'.
There is a reason why guys like Juan Soto don't play CF. I'm not saying other RF couldn't play CF(and that is where I go into the debatable portion of the value of defense, but even though it is debatable there is no doubt Trout earned his 'bump' as a CF as much as any other slugging CF did in history).
Freeman has the luxury to extend his games total (and his career) by playing first base. Trout should do that now too(but at DH since they have a young first baseman now).
What might end up happening is that Trout ends up as a DH who rarely walks but hits 35 HR a year to get to 520 HR, and then people will be saying, "well he is only a DH and his OB% is only league average," which would be valid criticism at that point, but ironic considering the unfounded garbage I've seen spewed in this thread.
Nah.
Lol, take a page out of my book. I like that.
I'm honored.
You won this debate by a landslide. I hope you know that.
Comments
Nah.
well thought out response
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Freeman just had ankle surgery. While hes expected to be able to do baseball activities during spring training it will still impact his off season. Baseball activities is also a key word for doing some stuff. DH isnt an option for him either unless Othani gets hurt
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Dodgers First game is March 18. All of December, January and February to recover. He should be able to start the season without set backs.
Definitely a concern. Those things tend to get worse at age 35 not better. I hope he stays healthy in his quest for 3,000 hits, but I am much less optimistic than I was a year ago.
Id like to see him stay healthy as well, hes been a good player for a long time. I think this injury probably ends the 3000 run though. Hes like 700 short and I expect a down year with him missing his off season which assuming everything goes well probably puts him at needing like 600 at the age of 36
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Well I’ve figured out an easy way to value Mike Trouts’ career. And you’re welcome in advance.
He’s 55% the player Frank Robinson was career numbers wise. In fact he has almost exactly 55% career at bats that Frank did. Some numbers like rbi dip to around 50% some like HR uptick to about 60% but overall he’s done about 55% of what Frank accomplished. And since Frank was pretty dang good in his old man years and Trout is pretty much done playing baseball that number won’t change much. If Trout did have old man years his numbers like OPS and OPS+ would dip below Franks so maybe better that Mike is done.
I have to admit Trout put in a decent but short career, accomplishing 55% of what Frank Robinson did is nothing to sneeze at. 👍
He will need to play to 38 decently healthy to get to 3,000 hits. He's got a shot. Him and altuve have shots at 3000, after that it might be a long time before anyone gets close.
well thought out response> @Darin said:
I like your analysis. now we wait for those chiming in saying: "but, but, WAR." "but, but, center field" "but, but, walks"
you are also correct in stating that 55% of Frank is nothing to sneeze at.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Different eras. Trout has already been viewed as the King of his era, hence why his cards are still so expensive. As good as Frank Robinsons is and having a better career(really just longer) than Trout, Robinson himself was overshadowed in his era, and that is why his cards were always cheaper relative to his peers.
Trout sits at an 86 WAR and Frank Robinson at a 107 WAR. Robinson is a vastly underrated, but look at Trout. Imagine had Trout not been injured and he would already be on par with Robinson already and in far less games, that is how good Trout was.
The next four or five years will determine a lot. If Trout hits 30 HR a year for four years while playing 135 games with some CF, he wil get over 100 WAR and over 500 Home runs and will retain being the best player of his era(with Judge or Ohtani maybe passing him if they have long careers too but they also have truncated years and are older too, and Ohtani needs to pitch more to take that title).
You are looking at cards and viewpoints going forward. Do you really think that the baseball industry and its consumers are going to go backwards and eliminate stats like WAR or WPA or RE24 in favor of hit totals?
Even though you guys don't 'like' WAR or the better measurements, the industry does and it is becoming common place for its consumers, and the fans who dislike those stats are going the way of the dinosaur slowly but surely.
Did you also not buy Nvidia stock and opt for investing in a paper stationary store because you don't like computers and like the old way better??
Interesting, that is similar to Trout with 500 HR. I would say Trout is the better bet to get 500 HR. Trout hits them long and often, and is just a matter of playing 130 games a year which would be about 30 HR a year for Trout. Four years of that and he is at 500 HR and may also be the last 500 HR club member for a while(unless Judge stays healthy).
Freeman having Ohtani is going to block his DH at bats. Trout may get some DH at bats going forward to get 500 HR...and the ironic thing is people will rip Trout for being a DH with no defensive value when in the past they ripped him for getting value for playing CF, lol. That would be the typical biased sports fan there of course.
48swell- at age 32 Robinson’s War was 81 and Trout 86 so not much difference. I doubt if Trout gets to 100 as he can’t even stay on the field more than 40 games a year.
Yes, it took Robinson 1,514 more plate appearances to still be behind. I would never diminish how good Robinson was, but 1,514 more plate appearances to still be behind Trout isn't a good case for the argument you are making. It just shows how good Trout was.
And in just raw laymen's terms, Robinson hit 418 HR to Trout 378 in that time frame and it took Robinsons 1,514 more plate appearances to do that. 40 more home runs more in basically three more years worth of at bats for Robinson.
As for getting to 100 WAR, we are going to find out in the next four years. It is an interesting topic that will be answered. I wouldn't bet on it myself, but I think it is a very real possibility that Trout gets 100 WAR and over 500 home runs and in far less games than others who were in that same ballpark from his era. At that point he is an immortal, especially when measured vs his peers.
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
Craig, you keep saying Trout shouldn't get the credit he does for playing CF. Why doesn't Freeman just go play CF then when that is one of their team's worst offensive positions?
Here are Trouts best yearly ranks as a CF, his active ranking, and his all time:
Putouts: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 50th all time.
Fielding%: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 1st on active list. 5th all time. Yes 5th all time.
Craig, per your defintion of "elite" in regard to HR, Trout has led the league and ranks first in those categories defensively, so he is an elite defender in pure old school counting stats. Nothing more old school than putouts and fielding percentage. Looks like Trout is an elite all time defender in center field and your complaints have no merit.
That is why Trout has an 86 WAR, and considering he has accumulated 588 runs above average offensively(more than what Freeman did and in 2,000 less plate appearances while playing 1B), that WAR looks pretty darn accurate for Trout.
So yes, CF, CF, CF...walks, walks, walks. HR, HR, HR. OB% OB%. SG% SLG% SLG%. PO PO PO. Fielding % Fielding %.
As for the inaccurate 55% comment....Trout is trailing Robinson in WAR 107 to 86...but Trout has done that in about 55% LESS plate appearances than Robinson. That is a more accurate assessment especially for players from different eras.
So if you are going to ignore WAR or other more accurate measurements because they are new and not a 'real stat', then apply that same standard to Trout's defense, and then only look at the "real" and timeless stats and Trout is an all time defender in center field. Yearly elite and all time elite.
1948 -- Trout stats are great and he's had great career. But when we talk cards, people have paid millions for Trout and very little for freeman. My original post is why and is this about to change some. I have no issues with Mike, seems like a good person and is a very good player. But I just don't understand the obsession collectors have with him. WHile his number are way above average his card prices rival Mantle.
As is stands currently, I doubt Mike would rank as one of the top 25 outfielders of all time, much less in the Class with Mickey or willie or hank or ted or stan. But people seem to want to plunk down 10 times what they would for a mickey to get a Trout, makes no sense to me.
Freddie, while not as flashy, has put together a very nice career. His walk-off GS in game, the only one in WS history, will certainly keep freddie on the minds of collectors for a very long time. Mike just doesn't have any playoff moments much less a WS moment like that.
Finally a fair post in a sea of bias.
The only centerfielders in history that have a higher WAR than Trout are Mays, Mantle, and Cobb(and Cobb played LF too).
That isn't a high enough ranking for you historically for Trout? You see a few zealots discount it, but you also see countless people putting their money down to cement that.
I'm not going to rehash all I wrote. An 86 WAR in almost 50% less at bats is certainly viewed by many as better than a 107 WAR in 50% more at bats. Whether someone doesn't understand that or has bias, it doesn't matter, because enough people see that as a top 20 outfielder already....and they have spent accordingly on is cards and still are.
Trout is the best of his era. Cross era comparisons are hard. He is the best of his era though and that is recognized and valued accordingly. Three time MVP also screams that.
Why else do you think they are spending on Trout? He doesn't have those moments you talk about, yet he commands 3x the price of a Miguel Cabrera PSA 10 Traded rookie in a similar comparison of Traded rookie cards, and Cabrera has 3k hits and 500 HR. Cabrera has a 67 lifetime WAR and is done. So it does make a lot of sense that Trout should be worth more than Cabrera, because people DO understand positional value etc.
Trout is well ahead of Freeman right now and the story is not written yet. Like I mentioned above, if Trout gets 100 WAR and 500 HR, he is clearly the best of his era(of any position). Whether or not someone can't understand how to rank that historically is a different story.
What is Freeman's equivalent to Cabrera's 2000 Topps Traded and Trout's 2011 Topps traded RC in PSA 10?
Trout is about $800 and he has 86 WAR
Cabrera is about $240 and he has a 67 WAR
Freeman? You fill in that blank because I don't know.
Whether people like it or not, that 86 WAR for Trout is pretty darn spot on(read above threads). So if Trout retired now he is above Cabrera. There is still speculation in those Trout prices though and you are correct that those prices could fall some. Cabrera's are locked in.
Cabrera is more similar to Freeman. Ironically, it is a stat like WAR that will put Freeman ahead of Cabrera, despite Cabrera having 3k and 500, of which Freeman won't match.
Trout is in the HOF already, whether the zealots and naysayers like it or not and his card prices reflect that. I am sure people are hoping for a return to health for Trout so he can reach 100 WAR and 500 HR and his cards may even go up still from where they are right now(relative to the overall market ups and downs).
Freeman is still speculation too. He would not be in the HOF if he never played another game. I give Freeman the most respect possible for gaming out that injury in the playoffs. Mad respect. What stinks though is that it might end up costing him career wise, which would be a terrible payment for that.
Last year I was thinking like you with Freeman. Good call at upside. I hope he stays healthy and gets 3k and you make a lot of money off his cards. However, that doesn't mean Trout's cards will go down to Freeman. Three MVP's and the best of his era has obviously carried a lot of weight with collectors, despite the few zealots out there.
Nah. fielding metrics are by and large junk compared to offensive metrics.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig, those aren't metrics. Putouts and fielding percentage are the 'real' stats according to the philosophies of the pundits of the advanced offensive stats. Not saying I believe they are...but you have said a lot of words to where it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for you to just dismiss Trout's all time ranking in CF in both putouts and fielding percentage...'actual real stats'.
There is a reason why guys like Juan Soto don't play CF. I'm not saying other RF couldn't play CF(and that is where I go into the debatable portion of the value of defense, but even though it is debatable there is no doubt Trout earned his 'bump' as a CF as much as any other slugging CF did in history).
Freeman has the luxury to extend his games total (and his career) by playing first base. Trout should do that now too(but at DH since they have a young first baseman now).
What might end up happening is that Trout ends up as a DH who rarely walks but hits 35 HR a year to get to 520 HR, and then people will be saying, "well he is only a DH and his OB% is only league average," which would be valid criticism at that point, but ironic considering the unfounded garbage I've seen spewed in this thread.
Nah.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Lol, take a page out of my book. I like that.
I'm honored.
You won this debate by a landslide. I hope you know that.
Freddie's walk-off home run ball just sold for $1.5 million.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/42984803/freddie-freeman-ws-walk-grand-slam-ball-sells-156m
NICE