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Freddie vs Mike

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Trout would still be the better long term card. Freddie is on the high from the WS MVP and Trout has had a bunch of injuries. We take for granted that Trout was just assumed to be the MVP every year and even with the injuries his career will age better when its looked back on. I like Freddie but Trout is the best player of his generation

    Do you think he is better than Ohtani? He just won his 3rd unanimous MVP in 4 seasons. And he will be back to being a 2 way player next season. It seems Trout was not even the best player on his own team most seasons when they were teammates

    Age wise theyre different generations so for his generation I do. Othani is my number 1 out of all the players with his ability to pitch which is probably done with his second TJ surgery. Even if he cant keep pitching he still did it which no one since Ruth has done it. I do think that as good as Trout was Othani does over shadow it some but Trout put all his stats up in MLB and Othani did have some in Japan and probably wont be pitching much longer.

    The Angels arent going to win anything but I dont think that WS titles should matter either. Its a team sort where you get 3-5 at bats a game at best

    I will disagree that the 2 are different generations. they are absolutely contemporaries. they were teammates for 6 years. their ages are only 3 years apart.

    I would say that everyone considers Ted Williams and Joe D to be contemporaries from the same generation, no? they were 4 years apart in age.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This will be a moot point in a few years when B. Baseball has a few more years under his belt. In some ways Witt the younger is already ahead of peak Trout. How you ask?
    Trout was never, ever considered elite defensively. Witt in his third season is considered by many to be not only the best defensive shortstop, but the best defensive player period. This year offensively he was almost at peak Trout level. So put it together and Bobby is a better all around player than Trout.
    Witt’s ceiling is astronomical, just go to bb reference and look at the year by year improvement.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Trout would still be the better long term card. Freddie is on the high from the WS MVP and Trout has had a bunch of injuries. We take for granted that Trout was just assumed to be the MVP every year and even with the injuries his career will age better when its looked back on. I like Freddie but Trout is the best player of his generation

    Do you think he is better than Ohtani? He just won his 3rd unanimous MVP in 4 seasons. And he will be back to being a 2 way player next season. It seems Trout was not even the best player on his own team most seasons when they were teammates

    Age wise theyre different generations so for his generation I do. Othani is my number 1 out of all the players with his ability to pitch which is probably done with his second TJ surgery. Even if he cant keep pitching he still did it which no one since Ruth has done it. I do think that as good as Trout was Othani does over shadow it some but Trout put all his stats up in MLB and Othani did have some in Japan and probably wont be pitching much longer.

    The Angels arent going to win anything but I dont think that WS titles should matter either. Its a team sort where you get 3-5 at bats a game at best

    I will disagree that the 2 are different generations. they are absolutely contemporaries. they were teammates for 6 years. their ages are only 3 years apart.

    I would say that everyone considers Ted Williams and Joe D to be V from the same generation, no? they were 4 years apart in age.

    Contemporaries/teammates for sure. But Trout stated in 2011 and Othani started in 2018. Same age or not one played in the MLB for a lot of years before the other came over from Japan.

    I like Othani as a player a lot. I do think as fans though that Trouts decade is getting taken for granted a bit

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 710 ✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Trout would still be the better long term card. Freddie is on the high from the WS MVP and Trout has had a bunch of injuries. We take for granted that Trout was just assumed to be the MVP every year and even with the injuries his career will age better when its looked back on. I like Freddie but Trout is the best player of his generation

    Do you think he is better than Ohtani? He just won his 3rd unanimous MVP in 4 seasons. And he will be back to being a 2 way player next season. It seems Trout was not even the best player on his own team most seasons when they were teammates

    Age wise theyre different generations so for his generation I do. Othani is my number 1 out of all the players with his ability to pitch which is probably done with his second TJ surgery. Even if he cant keep pitching he still did it which no one since Ruth has done it. I do think that as good as Trout was Othani does over shadow it some but Trout put all his stats up in MLB and Othani did have some in Japan and probably wont be pitching much longer.

    The Angels arent going to win anything but I dont think that WS titles should matter either. Its a team sort where you get 3-5 at bats a game at best

    I will disagree that the 2 are different generations. they are absolutely contemporaries. they were teammates for 6 years. their ages are only 3 years apart.

    I would say that everyone considers Ted Williams and Joe D to be V from the same generation, no? they were 4 years apart in age.

    Contemporaries/teammates for sure. But Trout stated in 2011 and Othani started in 2018. Same age or not one played in the MLB for a lot of years before the other came over from Japan.

    I like Othani as a player a lot. I do think as fans though that Trouts decade is getting taken for granted a bit

    I disagree.

    Baseball desperately needed a star who could be the face of the sport. Mike Trout was pumped to be that guy. The stat WAR was used to justify this. There were plenty of years where fans and the media would have you believe that Mike Trout was better than Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Williams, Aaron. His face was often depicted as one of the faces on the Mt. Rushmore of baseball.

    What's happening now is just bringing things back down to reality. They say hindsight is 20/20 and this is a great example.

    Trout will make the Hall of Fame simply because of his 3 MVP awards. But, if you break down those MVP years you find out just how normal they were beyond the WAR hype. A good example is placing them next to Dale Murphy's MVP seasons.

    Dale Murphy 1982 (1st MVP) Gold Glove
    .281 BA, 113 Runs, 36 HR, 109 RBI, 23 SB, 93 BB, 134 k's, .378 OBA, .507 SLG

    Mike Trout 2014 (1st MVP)
    .287 BA, 115 runs, 36 HR, 111 RBI, 16 SB, 83 BB, 184 k's, .377 OBA, .561 SLG

    Very slight edge to Trout in batting while Murphy was a gold glove centerfielder. The better MVP season edge goes to Murphy

    Dale Murphy 1983 (2nd MVP) Gold Glove
    .302 BA, 131 Runs, 36 HR, 121 RBI, 30 SB, 90 BB, 110 k's, .393 OBA, .540 SLG

    Mike Trout 2016 (2nd MVP)
    .315 BA, 123 Runs, 29 HR, 100 RBI, 30 SB, 116 BB, 137 k's, .441 OBA, .550 SLG

    Again, very close. Trout's walks inflate his OBA and has a very slight advantage on SLG. Murphy has another Gold Glove season in the outfield. Flip a coin on this one.

    Now since Murphy did not have a third MVP I'll take his last great season to compare to Trouts final great season.

    Dale Murphy (1987)
    .295 BA, 115 runs, 44 HR, 105 RBI, 16 SB, 115 BB, 136 K's, .417 OBA, .580 SLG

    Mike Trout 2019 (3rd MVP)
    .291 BA, 110 runs, 45 HR, 104 RBI, 11 SB, 110 BB, 120 K's, .438 OBA, .645 SLG

    Obviously, both Trout and Murphy earned their MVP's but the strength of these MVP seasons as compared to MVP seasons that players like Pujols or Cabrera put up help put them into context.

    Above that, Trout simply does not have much else to put on his Hall of Fame resume. Much like Dale Murphy, Trout does not have any playoff experience. Both played a total of 3 playoff games which were all losses. Both experienced injury issues that curtailed their careers.

    Trout has no memorable moments beyond striking out to Shohei in the World Baseball Classic.

    His contract may be the thing most people remember him for outside of his MVP's.

    Trout will get into the Hall of Fame but as years pass his legacy will diminish to being a "What if...???" and not about what he did on the field.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Trout would still be the better long term card. Freddie is on the high from the WS MVP and Trout has had a bunch of injuries. We take for granted that Trout was just assumed to be the MVP every year and even with the injuries his career will age better when its looked back on. I like Freddie but Trout is the best player of his generation

    Do you think he is better than Ohtani? He just won his 3rd unanimous MVP in 4 seasons. And he will be back to being a 2 way player next season. It seems Trout was not even the best player on his own team most seasons when they were teammates

    Age wise theyre different generations so for his generation I do. Othani is my number 1 out of all the players with his ability to pitch which is probably done with his second TJ surgery. Even if he cant keep pitching he still did it which no one since Ruth has done it. I do think that as good as Trout was Othani does over shadow it some but Trout put all his stats up in MLB and Othani did have some in Japan and probably wont be pitching much longer.

    The Angels arent going to win anything but I dont think that WS titles should matter either. Its a team sort where you get 3-5 at bats a game at best

    I will disagree that the 2 are different generations. they are absolutely contemporaries. they were teammates for 6 years. their ages are only 3 years apart.

    I would say that everyone considers Ted Williams and Joe D to be V from the same generation, no? they were 4 years apart in age.

    Contemporaries/teammates for sure. But Trout stated in 2011 and Othani started in 2018. Same age or not one played in the MLB for a lot of years before the other came over from Japan.

    I like Othani as a player a lot. I do think as fans though that Trouts decade is getting taken for granted a bit

    I disagree.

    Baseball desperately needed a star who could be the face of the sport. Mike Trout was pumped to be that guy. The stat WAR was used to justify this. There were plenty of years where fans and the media would have you believe that Mike Trout was better than Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Williams, Aaron. His face was often depicted as one of the faces on the Mt. Rushmore of baseball.

    What's happening now is just bringing things back down to reality. They say hindsight is 20/20 and this is a great example.

    Trout will make the Hall of Fame simply because of his 3 MVP awards. But, if you break down those MVP years you find out just how normal they were beyond the WAR hype. A good example is placing them next to Dale Murphy's MVP seasons.

    Dale Murphy 1982 (1st MVP) Gold Glove
    .281 BA, 113 Runs, 36 HR, 109 RBI, 23 SB, 93 BB, 134 k's, .378 OBA, .507 SLG

    Mike Trout 2014 (1st MVP)
    .287 BA, 115 runs, 36 HR, 111 RBI, 16 SB, 83 BB, 184 k's, .377 OBA, .561 SLG

    Very slight edge to Trout in batting while Murphy was a gold glove centerfielder. The better MVP season edge goes to Murphy

    Dale Murphy 1983 (2nd MVP) Gold Glove
    .302 BA, 131 Runs, 36 HR, 121 RBI, 30 SB, 90 BB, 110 k's, .393 OBA, .540 SLG

    Mike Trout 2016 (2nd MVP)
    .315 BA, 123 Runs, 29 HR, 100 RBI, 30 SB, 116 BB, 137 k's, .441 OBA, .550 SLG

    Again, very close. Trout's walks inflate his OBA and has a very slight advantage on SLG. Murphy has another Gold Glove season in the outfield. Flip a coin on this one.

    Now since Murphy did not have a third MVP I'll take his last great season to compare to Trouts final great season.

    Dale Murphy (1987)
    .295 BA, 115 runs, 44 HR, 105 RBI, 16 SB, 115 BB, 136 K's, .417 OBA, .580 SLG

    Mike Trout 2019 (3rd MVP)
    .291 BA, 110 runs, 45 HR, 104 RBI, 11 SB, 110 BB, 120 K's, .438 OBA, .645 SLG

    Obviously, both Trout and Murphy earned their MVP's but the strength of these MVP seasons as compared to MVP seasons that players like Pujols or Cabrera put up help put them into context.

    Above that, Trout simply does not have much else to put on his Hall of Fame resume. Much like Dale Murphy, Trout does not have any playoff experience. Both played a total of 3 playoff games which were all losses. Both experienced injury issues that curtailed their careers.

    Trout has no memorable moments beyond striking out to Shohei in the World Baseball Classic.

    His contract may be the thing most people remember him for outside of his MVP's.

    Trout will get into the Hall of Fame but as years pass his legacy will diminish to being a "What if...???" and not about what he did on the field.

    Baseball isnt the NBA, people like to dump on players for not making the playoffs but that is out of their control/ Trout isnt pitching and even if he was we would only be pitching about 20 percent of the time and he cant play all 9 positions or hit in all 9 lineup spots. You can blame him for signing the extension with the Angels, but other than that is isnt why they dont make the playoffs.

    Murphy really isnt a good comparison. Trout has blow past Murphys stats and did so in 600ish less games. Trouts a career .299/.410/.581 hitter in 1586 games with 378 Hrs, 954 RBIs, and 212 SBs

    Murphy is a career .265/.346/.469 in 2180 games with 398 HRs, and 1266 RBIs. He stole 161 bases but was caught 68 times while Trout was only caught 38 times.

    The advanced stat stuff like OPS+ all heavily favors Trout being the best player when he was healthy. I dont like the WAR stat because of the position boost among other things but the fact that hes been able to do what he has on generally average at best team and usually bad ones is very understated how impressive it is

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 710 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2024 5:05PM

    You have to remember that Trout's numbers are all those compiled up to age 32 before MLB players see a drastic decline in their overall stats. It's easy to look at the averages now and use them to inflate Trout's overall career. However, if Trout's career ends up similar to other stars such as Cabrera, Pujols, Griffey, and Frank Thomas you will see a drastic decline in performance post-age 32.

    We should expect a further dropoff now that he is 32. If you look at prime(pre age 32) Griffey, F.Thomas, Cabrera, Pujols and compare it against their post-32 stats you tend to see an average of a 50-point dropoff in batting average alone. OBA takes a nearly 100-point drop-off. Slugging% is about 150 points while OPS is nearly a 200-point drop.

    Albert Pujols

    pre 32 .328 BA .421 OB .617 Slug 1.037 OPS
    post 32 .257 BA .313 OB .454 Slug .767 OPS

    Miguel Cabrera

    pre 32 .320 BA .397 OB .564 Slug .960 OPS
    post 32 .272 BA .341 OB .416 Slug .758 OPS

    others....

    Alex Rodriguez

    pre 32 .306 BA .389 OB .578 Slug .987 OPS
    post 32 .263 BA .353 OB .469 Slug .822 OPS

    Griffey

    pre 32 .296 BA .379 OB .566 Slug .945 OPS
    post 32 .257 BA .348 OB .477 Slug .825 OPS

    Frank Thomas

    pre 32 .321 BA .440 OB .579 Slug 1.018 OPS
    post 32 .262 BA .376 OB .507 Slug .884 OPS

    The people who were bullish on Trout and placing him in the same category as Ruth, Mays, Gehrig, Williams, Musial, etc were generally looking at his prime 8 years (2011-2019) and expecting Trout to play the same his entire career. If so, he'd have a chance to be in that category. Nearly all of those players above also had 2300+ hits and nearly 500 home runs by age 32.

    If you factor in the average decline of the other HoF'rs listed above and apply those averages to the timeline in which Trout's contract ends you should see numbers like the following for Trout.

    7902 AB - 166th all time
    2245 hits - 173rd all time
    421 doubles - 157th all time
    62 triples - 498th all time
    521 home runs - 20th all time
    1277 RBIs - 94th all time
    1334 walks - 39th all time
    2169 k's - 6th all time
    .284 BA - 530th all time
    .387 OBA - 128th all time
    .550 SA - 29th all time
    .937 OBA - 36th all time

    This is based on an additional 2400+ at-bats from 2025 through 2030. So he will need to average 400 at-bats a season for the next season to get to 7900 at-bats. In the last 4 seasons, he has averaged 283 at-bats. Furthermore, he has seen a drastic decline in his averages.

    2021-24 - .276 BA, .376 OBA, .575 SLG, .951 OPS

    the last 2 seasons have seen a further dropoff

    2023-24 .252 BA, .357 OBA, .504 SLG, .860 OPS

    Even if he is able to get the at-bats for the next 6 years he should become a .240 hitter with less power. He will walk a lot less because the pitcher will no longer pitch around him. He has walked 115 times in 855 at-bats. From 2012 to 2021 his walk rate was nearly double that.

    The drop-off for Trout began in 2022 but was really evident over the last two years. It is possible for him to pull out a solid season or two over the next 6 seasons as he transitions to DH. However, nearly all the other Hall of Famers mentioned above also transitioned to DH yet their post-age 32 regression continued. Each of them posted a 30+ home run season or two during this period but all other stats suffered drastically from their peak.

    The postseason has always mattered in all major sports. Baseball is not exempt from this. It was just a few years ago that the masses would not give Clayton Kershaw any credibility due to a perceived lack of playoff success. Obviously, now he has some rings and it is easy to see his pitching during the regular season was the difference between the Dodgers even making the playoffs. The Angels win% is nearly identical when Trout plays and when he does not play.

    People like to point to the Angels organization and their owner as the problem. Arte Moreno became the owner of the Angels for the 2004 season. From 2004 through 2009 The Angels were in 1st place in 5 of the 6 seasons and the other season was a 89-win second place season. They had Vladdy and that was about it.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have never bought into the Trout hype. They tried to make him seem otherworldly with WAR, but I have never been impressed with that metric. I dont like the positional adjustment aspect.

    The only thing trout did extraordinarily well was draw walks. He did that very very well. that, in effect, lessened his amount of at bats which helped him increase his rate percentages. Trout never led his league in any power stat. never once in HR, 2b or 3b. Never hit 50 bombs and may well never hit any of the career benchmarks. He will turn into a swing from his heels slugger as he ages and the bat speed decreases. then we will see his OP%, BA, SLG% decrease. and K's increase.

    Trout is a guy who had a great 7 year peak.

    I would much rather have Pujols 10 year run to start his career.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Trout was finished being a full time ball player after age 24.
    Up to age 24 he had seasons in which he played 159, 159, 157 and 157 games.
    After age 24 the most games he has played in for a season is 140. That’s 22 missed games.
    Now he plays about 35-40 games a year, calls it good and he’s free from another year of baseball to think of nothing but Eagles football and the weather.
    Hes like me on Fridays at 5:00 when my work week is over except for him it’s every middle of May when his baseball season is over. 🥳🍺
    Don’t get me started on Miguel Cabrera, suffice it to say I foretold his fall from the upper echelon of baseball when stuffing himself with the tigers owners fast food became more important than baseball.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:
    You have to remember that Trout's numbers are all those compiled up to age 32 before MLB players see a drastic decline in their overall stats. It's easy to look at the averages now and use them to inflate Trout's overall career. However, if Trout's career ends up similar to other stars such as Cabrera, Pujols, Griffey, and Frank Thomas you will see a drastic decline in performance post-age 32.

    We should expect a further dropoff now that he is 32. If you look at prime(pre age 32) Griffey, F.Thomas, Cabrera, Pujols and compare it against their post-32 stats you tend to see an average of a 50-point dropoff in batting average alone. OBA takes a nearly 100-point drop-off. Slugging% is about 150 points while OPS is nearly a 200-point drop.

    Albert Pujols

    pre 32 .328 BA .421 OB .617 Slug 1.037 OPS
    post 32 .257 BA .313 OB .454 Slug .767 OPS

    Miguel Cabrera

    pre 32 .320 BA .397 OB .564 Slug .960 OPS
    post 32 .272 BA .341 OB .416 Slug .758 OPS

    others....

    Alex Rodriguez

    pre 32 .306 BA .389 OB .578 Slug .987 OPS
    post 32 .263 BA .353 OB .469 Slug .822 OPS

    Griffey

    pre 32 .296 BA .379 OB .566 Slug .945 OPS
    post 32 .257 BA .348 OB .477 Slug .825 OPS

    Frank Thomas

    pre 32 .321 BA .440 OB .579 Slug 1.018 OPS
    post 32 .262 BA .376 OB .507 Slug .884 OPS

    The people who were bullish on Trout and placing him in the same category as Ruth, Mays, Gehrig, Williams, Musial, etc were generally looking at his prime 8 years (2011-2019) and expecting Trout to play the same his entire career. If so, he'd have a chance to be in that category. Nearly all of those players above also had 2300+ hits and nearly 500 home runs by age 32.

    If you factor in the average decline of the other HoF'rs listed above and apply those averages to the timeline in which Trout's contract ends you should see numbers like the following for Trout.

    7902 AB - 166th all time
    2245 hits - 173rd all time
    421 doubles - 157th all time
    62 triples - 498th all time
    521 home runs - 20th all time
    1277 RBIs - 94th all time
    1334 walks - 39th all time
    2169 k's - 6th all time
    .284 BA - 530th all time
    .387 OBA - 128th all time
    .550 SA - 29th all time
    .937 OBA - 36th all time

    This is based on an additional 2400+ at-bats from 2025 through 2030. So he will need to average 400 at-bats a season for the next season to get to 7900 at-bats. In the last 4 seasons, he has averaged 283 at-bats. Furthermore, he has seen a drastic decline in his averages.

    2021-24 - .276 BA, .376 OBA, .575 SLG, .951 OPS

    the last 2 seasons have seen a further dropoff

    2023-24 .252 BA, .357 OBA, .504 SLG, .860 OPS

    Even if he is able to get the at-bats for the next 6 years he should become a .240 hitter with less power. He will walk a lot less because the pitcher will no longer pitch around him. He has walked 115 times in 855 at-bats. From 2012 to 2021 his walk rate was nearly double that.

    The drop-off for Trout began in 2022 but was really evident over the last two years. It is possible for him to pull out a solid season or two over the next 6 seasons as he transitions to DH. However, nearly all the other Hall of Famers mentioned above also transitioned to DH yet their post-age 32 regression continued. Each of them posted a 30+ home run season or two during this period but all other stats suffered drastically from their peak.

    The postseason has always mattered in all major sports. Baseball is not exempt from this. It was just a few years ago that the masses would not give Clayton Kershaw any credibility due to a perceived lack of playoff success. Obviously, now he has some rings and it is easy to see his pitching during the regular season was the difference between the Dodgers even making the playoffs. The Angels win% is nearly identical when Trout plays and when he does not play.

    People like to point to the Angels organization and their owner as the problem. Arte Moreno became the owner of the Angels for the 2004 season. From 2004 through 2009 The Angels were in 1st place in 5 of the 6 seasons and the other season was a 89-win second place season. They had Vladdy and that was about it.

    His genetic back issues will definitely brings some of the numbers down. I put more weight in the prime of someone and certainly dont hold it against anyone if they dont value it as much.

    Girffey, Thomas, Arod, Miggy and all those guys Im a big fan of all of them for what they did.

    They never really overlapped over their careers other than Arod and Miggy for a couple years.

    I'm certainly not trying to discredit any of them and they should all be in the HOF for sure. But none of them were the same generation of Trout.

    Who would you say was better for his generation

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • bgrbgr Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can’t think of anyone, at present, who can compare career-wise with trout over that time-frame. If you’re just considering stats.

    But there’s a few guys who are a handful of years away from passing him by.

    Freeman, Harper, Machado. Machado is a stretch. But Betts was a rookie in 2014 and he’s in the same generation. Ohtani may have spent 5 years in Japan first but they’re really the same generation unless we can’t extrapolate anything from his performance there. Which, fine, keep ohtani off the list but there’s are other examples.

    Again I still think Trout is ahead of them in what he’s compiled so far. He will coast into retirement and probably into the HOF.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I sincerely hope Ronald Acuna plays in 155+ games per season for the next 12-15 years. I think next year is huge for him because if he misses significant time again he might start going down the Trouty path of always getting injured.
    I hated when he went out early this season, losing a huge superstar after a monster season just isn’t good for the game.
    With trouty you just get used to it…. don’t want that happening to all the games great players.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another point about Acuna…. he is one of the few players in the NL with enough talent to challenge Ohtani for MVP. Betts is another if he doesn’t get injured.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2024 7:23PM

    Ohtani is better than Trout. they are contemporaries. just as much as williams and dimag. were
    teammates for 6 seasons.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    Ohtani is better than Trout. they are contemporaries. just as much as williams and dimag. were
    teammates for 6 seasons.

    Not really contemporaries for their generation though. Trout stated in MLB in 2011 Othani started in 2018. There was some overlap with Miggy but Betts is probably the closest to a contemporary and Trout out performed him before the injuries

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2024 7:33AM

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:
    Ohtani is better than Trout. they are contemporaries. just as much as williams and dimag. were
    teammates for 6 seasons.

    Not really contemporaries for their generation though. Trout stated in MLB in 2011 Othani started in 2018. There was some overlap with Miggy but Betts is probably the closest to a contemporary and Trout out performed him before the injuries

    exactly what do you consider a "generation" keep in mind, they were teammates for 6 seasons and 2011 was a cup of coffee for Trout.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OMFG.

    People are really off the Trout bandwagon and onto Shohei's.

    Trout may not have been a great centerfielder, but Ohtani is a DH with 840 appearances as DH, PH and PR. He has appeared 86 times as a pitcher and with 2 Tommy John surgeries already, it looks like his arm isn't going to last.

    Trout has played 1400 games in the outfield almost all in Center. With Trout walking so often, he's going to have a harder time leading the league in HR. How about a lifetime .581 SLG? He averages 120 runs, and over 100 walks and RBI per 162 games.

    Yes, Trouts career seems to be over unless he either has a miracle happen or more likely becomes a DH (Ohtani's position).

    I seriously doubt Otani has much of a future as a pitcher, but it could happen. Let's not forget Shohei's already 29. Trout had 7-8 superb seasons, Ohtani has has 4, he gets hurt again with this ridiculous pitching experiment, he might be done.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    were frank robinson and willie mays of the same generation?

    what about Jackie Robinson and Ted Williams?

    Clemens and Curt Schilling?

    I consider those comparisons all to be both contemporaries and of the same "generation"

    If players have to be born in the same year, or be rookies in the same season in order to be considered contemporary with each other it will be very challenging to directly compare almost anyone.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    OMFG.

    People are really off the Trout bandwagon and onto Shohei's.

    Trout may not have been a great centerfielder, but Ohtani is a DH with 840 appearances as DH, PH and PR. He has appeared 86 times as a pitcher and with 2 Tommy John surgeries already, it looks like his arm isn't going to last.

    Trout has played 1400 games in the outfield almost all in Center. With Trout walking so often, he's going to have a harder time leading the league in HR. How about a lifetime .581 SLG? He averages 120 runs, and over 100 walks and RBI per 162 games.

    Yes, Trouts career seems to be over unless he either has a miracle happen or more likely becomes a DH (Ohtani's position).

    I seriously doubt Otani has much of a future as a pitcher, but it could happen. Let's not forget Shohei's already 29. Trout had 7-8 superb seasons, Ohtani has has 4, he gets hurt again with this ridiculous pitching experiment, he might be done.

    I have never been on the trout bandwagon.

    at his best, trout was an average to very slightly above average CF and with a very poor arm. a big part of the reason trouts percentages are high is because of the walks taking away from his at bats. the more ABs, the more difficult it is to keep those rate stats impressive. keep in mind, we havent even seen trouts old man years yet. the rates will plummet.

    I think you underestimate the value of Ohtanis pitching. And remember, Ohtani is every bit as athletic as Trout. if it were not for being a 2 way player, he could easily have been an outfielder like trout. There is clearly more value for him as a starter though, or the Angels would have done just that.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • bgrbgr Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    OMFG.

    People are really off the Trout bandwagon and onto Shohei's.

    Trout may not have been a great centerfielder, but Ohtani is a DH with 840 appearances as DH, PH and PR. He has appeared 86 times as a pitcher and with 2 Tommy John surgeries already, it looks like his arm isn't going to last.

    Trout has played 1400 games in the outfield almost all in Center. With Trout walking so often, he's going to have a harder time leading the league in HR. How about a lifetime .581 SLG? He averages 120 runs, and over 100 walks and RBI per 162 games.

    Yes, Trouts career seems to be over unless he either has a miracle happen or more likely becomes a DH (Ohtani's position).

    I seriously doubt Otani has much of a future as a pitcher, but it could happen. Let's not forget Shohei's already 29. Trout had 7-8 superb seasons, Ohtani has has 4, he gets hurt again with this ridiculous pitching experiment, he might be done.

    I have never been on the trout bandwagon.

    at his best, trout was an average to very slightly above average CF and with a very poor arm. a big part of the reason trouts percentages are high is because of the walks taking away from his at bats. the more ABs, the more difficult it is to keep those rate stats impressive. keep in mind, we havent even seen trouts old man years yet. the rates will plummet.

    I think you underestimate the value of Ohtanis pitching. And remember, Ohtani is every bit as athletic as Trout. if it were not for being a 2 way player, he could easily have been an outfielder like trout. There is clearly more value for him as a starter though, or the Angels would have done just that.

    >
    >
    >
    I have never been on Trout's bandwagon either, but you can't deny he had 7-8 STELLAR seasons, Ohtani has had 4.......3 while pitching.

    Ohtani has pitched 3 seasons and has had 2 TJ surgeries.
    Could have been an outfielder? We don't know, because he hasn't.

    Ohtani is approaching his old man years too, his rates will probably plummet as well. He's going to be 31 this July. How many more great seasons will he have? I would doubt 4, and if he blows out his arm pitching, maybe only a couple, or none.

    He/they risked his health having him steal bases unnecessarily and he got hurt again. I see a lot of stupidity with how his career has been managed.
    Ruth became the greatest hitter in MLB history because they wisely had him give up pitching.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bgr said:
    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    >
    >
    He's going to need another 3-4 great hitting years to surpass Trout. He's 31. I doubt he even comes close to Trout, but it's possible if he stays healthy.

    They may be able to fix his arm if he hurts it again, but he will still miss a year(?) if he needs another TJ.
    >
    >

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

    >
    >
    >
    It's just foolish having him pitch, he gets hurt too often.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:
    Ohtani is better than Trout. they are contemporaries. just as much as williams and dimag. were
    teammates for 6 seasons.

    Not really contemporaries for their generation though. Trout stated in MLB in 2011 Othani started in 2018. There was some overlap with Miggy but Betts is probably the closest to a contemporary and Trout out performed him before the injuries

    exactly what do you consider a "generation" keep in mind, they were teammates for 6 seasons and 2011 was a cup of coffee for Trout.

    I would consider Othani in his own category as long as hes still pitching. Its basically just him and Ruth that did both very well.

    That said though I think theres to many years difference in terms of Othani and Trouts careers in the MLB to be considered same generation in terms of playing. Age wise theyre the same and had Othani started in the MLB instead of Japan Id consider them the same, but by the time Othani took his first MLB at bat Trout has already played 6 full season and a partial 7th season.

    WIth the average career being about 5 years that would be my highest cut off for guys that made the league within 5 years of each other. Anything over 5 I would consider the next wave

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    OMFG.

    People are really off the Trout bandwagon and onto Shohei's.

    Trout may not have been a great centerfielder, but Ohtani is a DH with 840 appearances as DH, PH and PR. He has appeared 86 times as a pitcher and with 2 Tommy John surgeries already, it looks like his arm isn't going to last.

    Trout has played 1400 games in the outfield almost all in Center. With Trout walking so often, he's going to have a harder time leading the league in HR. How about a lifetime .581 SLG? He averages 120 runs, and over 100 walks and RBI per 162 games.

    Yes, Trouts career seems to be over unless he either has a miracle happen or more likely becomes a DH (Ohtani's position).

    I seriously doubt Otani has much of a future as a pitcher, but it could happen. Let's not forget Shohei's already 29. Trout had 7-8 superb seasons, Ohtani has has 4, he gets hurt again with this ridiculous pitching experiment, he might be done.

    I have never been on the trout bandwagon.

    at his best, trout was an average to very slightly above average CF and with a very poor arm. a big part of the reason trouts percentages are high is because of the walks taking away from his at bats. the more ABs, the more difficult it is to keep those rate stats impressive. keep in mind, we havent even seen trouts old man years yet. the rates will plummet.

    I think you underestimate the value of Ohtanis pitching. And remember, Ohtani is every bit as athletic as Trout. if it were not for being a 2 way player, he could easily have been an outfielder like trout. There is clearly more value for him as a starter though, or the Angels would have done just that.

    >
    >
    >
    I have never been on Trout's bandwagon either, but you can't deny he had 7-8 STELLAR seasons, Ohtani has had 4.......3 while pitching.

    Ohtani has pitched 3 seasons and has had 2 TJ surgeries.
    Could have been an outfielder? We don't know, because he hasn't.

    Ohtani is approaching his old man years too, his rates will probably plummet as well. He's going to be 31 this July. How many more great seasons will he have? I would doubt 4, and if he blows out his arm pitching, maybe only a couple, or none.

    He/they risked his health having him steal bases unnecessarily and he got hurt again. I see a lot of stupidity with how his career has been managed.
    Ruth became the greatest hitter in MLB history because they wisely had him give up pitching.

    Othani played OF in Japan at first. The reason why he DHs is to try and keep his throwing down since he pitches as well. He could easily have been an OF or be one now if he stoped pitching.

    I do agree his starting pitching career isnt looking good going forward. Very few guys come back from 2 TJs and still be elite. Chances are he will be a back end starter quality and if a 3rd TJ happened basically no one even comes back from that.

    Even though moving him to a relief role might be smarter, the simple fact is that like stealing bases its just up to whatever Othani wants to do. He is by far and away the most valuable product in MLB and its not even close. If he wants to do something he gets to do it and no manager or person in the front office can stop him. Even Mookie couldnt get his leadoff spot back because Othani decided he liked it better

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the thread is about freeman vs trout. rookie cards are the same year.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    the thread is about freeman vs trout. rookie cards are the same year.

    OK. Pretty obvious Trout's better but gets hurt more.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2024 8:43AM

    @olb31 said:
    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    I took a quick look and both guys have rookie cards ( chrome/auto) going for $3-5 thousand dollars.
    I didn't do a "deep dive" on them.

    Trout started out looking like the next Mickey Mantle. Run scoring MACHINE who stole a lot of bases @ 82% success rate and slugged .587 for his first 8 seasons. Find me ANY current player who has done that!

    Injuries have limited him to 1 full season in his last 5, he stopped stealing bases, but he has slugged .580 when he has been able to play.

    Freeman's first 8 years were nice, but he slugged .498 and played 1st base. He led the league once in hits and doubles and never in any other category.

    Of course, since then, Trout can't get on the field and Fred is playing everyday and has increased his SLG to .531.

    The "Trout people" are finally realizing that Mike might be done, while Fred is playing better and playing well in the post season.

    You can invest in any player's cards for any reason, but Fred, on his best day, is nowhere near Mike's first 8 seasons. Even if Mike was an average CF.

    edited to add;

    Trout shouldn't be penalized for playing on bad teams. I do believe in giving Freeman credit for playing well in the post season though.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    bad teams -- overlooked teams -- inconsequential teams. All the same. Hard to ignore that Mantle playing for the Yankees didn't help the value of his cards. Same with Jeter. In baseball there are 3 main teams, Boston (3), LAD (2) Yankees (1). The team definitely matters.

    The Angels. No one cares.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    bad teams -- overlooked teams -- inconsequential teams. All the same. Hard to ignore that Mantle playing for the Yankees didn't help the value of his cards. Same with Jeter. In baseball there are 3 main teams, Boston (3), LAD (2) Yankees (1). The team definitely matters.

    The Angels. No one cares.

    All true, but a lot of people do realize that Joe Dimaggio was not better than Ted Williams.

    On the other hand why do people love Bench so much more than Berra?

    People collect what they like. Makes me happy that they pay so little for Killebrew and so much for Koufax!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @olb31 said:
    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    I took a quick look and both guys have rookie cards ( chrome/auto) going for $3-5 thousand dollars.
    I didn't do a "deep dive" on them.

    Trout started out looking like the next Mickey Mantle. Run scoring MACHINE who stole a lot of bases @ 82% success rate and slugged .587 for his first 8 seasons. Find me ANY current player who has done that!

    Injuries have limited him to 1 full season in his last 5, he stopped stealing bases, but he has slugged .580 when he has been able to play.

    Freeman's first 8 years were nice, but he slugged .498 and played 1st base. He led the league once in hits and doubles and never in any other category.

    Of course, since then, Trout can't get on the field and Fred is playing everyday and has increased his SLG to .531.

    The "Trout people" are finally realizing that Mike might be done, while Fred is playing better and playing well in the post season.

    You can invest in any player's cards for any reason, but Fred, on his best day, is nowhere near Mike's first 8 seasons. Even if Mike was an average CF.

    edited to add;

    Trout shouldn't be penalized for playing on bad teams. I do believe in giving Freeman credit for playing well in the post season though.

    I think Trout should be penalized for playing on bad teams. after his 6th season he could have been a free agent and signed with any team. there were rumblings about the Yankees wanting him, but he CHOSE to extend himself with the angels and play for a perenial loser.

    He could have signed with any number of good teams and at least been in the playoff most every season.

    I am convinced that winning is not a priority for Trout.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Trout was a full time player up to age 24. After that he’s always been a part timer.
    You can look it up… I’m not wrong.

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 710 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2024 12:02PM

    @bgr said:
    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

    Ohtani has already passed Trout.

    Neither has all-time career stats so we can toss that for now. Ohtani is a once-a-century talent who has already achieved things people never thought were possible. People never thought we'd see a major league player excel at pitching and hitting after Babe Ruth. Ohtani has proved to be a top-tier pitcher on the mound placing as high as 4th for the Cy Young even with limited starts. Additionally, he pitched Japan to victory over the US in the World Baseball Classic.

    On the batting side, he achieved something thought impossible with the 50/50 (54/59) this past year. He's already equaled Trout's 3 MVP's but it's pretty obvious that Ohtani's MVP's more substantial and memorable than Trout's. Ohtani has a World Series ring now as well with plenty of potential to add to the collection.

    Ohtani's has numerous historic moments on the field. His achievement of 50/50, the game he achieved 50/50 going 6 for 6 with 3 home runs and 10 rbi's. When he struck out Trout to defeat the US team and win the World Baseball Classic for Japan. Becoming the first full-time pitcher/hitter to play at an elite level since Babe Ruth. The most historic thing about Trout was his contract. He does not have much else.

    Ohtani is a baseball icon and the closest thing MLB has had to the face of the sport since Griffey.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with Art.
    Just winning MVP as a designated hitter without anyone really saying “oh he doesn’t deserve it because he didn’t play defense” speaks volumes to me. His offensive numbers were so monumental that he was legitimately better than any other NL player who played offense and defense.
    I think he’s the most talented player since Babe Ruth myself. That’s why I’m kind of surprised his standard topps rookie cards haven’t reached the values that Trout’s did in his prime. Both Trout’s and Ohtani’s are high pop in PSA 10.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:

    @bgr said:
    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

    Ohtani has already passed Trout.

    >
    We have already been scolded for derailing this thread.
    BUT
    That's hilarious.

    Neither has all-time career stats so we can toss that for now. Ohtani is a once-a-century talent who has already achieved things people never thought were possible. People never thought we'd see a major league player excel at pitching and hitting after Babe Ruth. Ohtani has proved to be a top-tier pitcher on the mound placing as high as 4th for the Cy Young even with limited starts. Additionally, he pitched Japan to victory over the US in the World Baseball Classic.

    On the batting side, he achieved something thought impossible with the 50/50 (54/59) this past year. He's already equaled Trout's 3 MVP's but it's pretty obvious that Ohtani's MVP's more substantial and memorable than Trout's. Ohtani has a World Series ring now as well with plenty of potential to add to the collection.

    >
    >
    >
    Mantle said a long time ago he could have gone 50/50.
    It is unique that Ohtani can pitch, but when he's not pitching, he's a DH.
    >
    >
    >

    Ohtani's has numerous historic moments on the field. His achievement of 50/50, the game he achieved 50/50 going 6 for 6 with 3 home runs and 10 rbi's. When he struck out Trout to defeat the US team and win the World Baseball Classic for Japan. Becoming the first full-time pitcher/hitter to play at an elite level since Babe Ruth. The most historic thing about Trout was his contract. He does not have much else.

    >
    >
    He struck out Trout in the Baseball classic, wow!
    >
    >

    Ohtani is a baseball icon and the closest thing MLB has had to the face of the sport since Griffey.

    >
    >
    >

    >

    Ohtani needs at least 3 more big years to be compared to Trout. If he has them, he'll definitely become the more valuable player. That's only if Trout is basically done right now. If Trout somehow can become a full time player for a couple more years, or if Shohei blows up his arm again and/or hurts himself foolishly stealing bases, Ohtani will probably never catch him.
    It's really special that Shohei can hit and pitch, but one of the reasons it's not done is because of the injury factor.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • bgrbgr Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:

    @bgr said:
    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

    Ohtani has already passed Trout.

    Neither has all-time career stats so we can toss that for now. Ohtani is a once-a-century talent who has already achieved things people never thought were possible. People never thought we'd see a major league player excel at pitching and hitting after Babe Ruth. Ohtani has proved to be a top-tier pitcher on the mound placing as high as 4th for the Cy Young even with limited starts. Additionally, he pitched Japan to victory over the US in the World Baseball Classic.

    On the batting side, he achieved something thought impossible with the 50/50 (54/59) this past year. He's already equaled Trout's 3 MVP's but it's pretty obvious that Ohtani's MVP's more substantial and memorable than Trout's. Ohtani has a World Series ring now as well with plenty of potential to add to the collection.

    Ohtani's has numerous historic moments on the field. His achievement of 50/50, the game he achieved 50/50 going 6 for 6 with 3 home runs and 10 rbi's. When he struck out Trout to defeat the US team and win the World Baseball Classic for Japan. Becoming the first full-time pitcher/hitter to play at an elite level since Babe Ruth. The most historic thing about Trout was his contract. He does not have much else.

    Ohtani is a baseball icon and the closest thing MLB has had to the face of the sport since Griffey.

    I appreciate your take on it. But you kind of immediately threw out the only thing I was speaking to in “career stats”.

    I don’t disagree with the rest but I would say that we have to be careful projecting Ohtani’s future. We could be here in a few years talking about how he only had 3 or 4 great years. No doubt Ohtani has had those big moments that make a career memorable.

    I think Freeman could catch and pass trout in compilation but I agree with others who have brought up the points regarding peak and position. Whole WAR has some problems (mostly how people use it) I think the positional ratio provides, at a minimum, some insight into the value of offensive production at various positions. What might be expected for a first baseman is a big bonus in CF.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:

    @bgr said:
    I could see Ohtani playing first base. I’m skeptical about other positions. I think he will eventually pass Trout career wise. I don’t think he pitches full time much longer. I also don’t put too much value in historical data regarding 2 TJs. The modern data is pretty mixed as far as success or not following the second procedure. It’s also an area of sports medicine which has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years greatly reducing the number of useful examples.

    With Ohtani’s offensive game I think having him pitch is a liability for the team. It’s probably great or has been so for marketing. Past that it’s a gimmick. He’s not the first person who’s done it since babe Ruth. First who’s done both so proficiently since no one.

    Ohtani has already passed Trout.

    Neither has all-time career stats so we can toss that for now. Ohtani is a once-a-century talent who has already achieved things people never thought were possible. People never thought we'd see a major league player excel at pitching and hitting after Babe Ruth. Ohtani has proved to be a top-tier pitcher on the mound placing as high as 4th for the Cy Young even with limited starts. Additionally, he pitched Japan to victory over the US in the World Baseball Classic.

    On the batting side, he achieved something thought impossible with the 50/50 (54/59) this past year. He's already equaled Trout's 3 MVP's but it's pretty obvious that Ohtani's MVP's more substantial and memorable than Trout's. Ohtani has a World Series ring now as well with plenty of potential to add to the collection.

    Ohtani's has numerous historic moments on the field. His achievement of 50/50, the game he achieved 50/50 going 6 for 6 with 3 home runs and 10 rbi's. When he struck out Trout to defeat the US team and win the World Baseball Classic for Japan. Becoming the first full-time pitcher/hitter to play at an elite level since Babe Ruth. The most historic thing about Trout was his contract. He does not have much else.

    Ohtani is a baseball icon and the closest thing MLB has had to the face of the sport since Griffey.

    this is the one. you hit the nail on the head here.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @olb31 said:
    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    I took a quick look and both guys have rookie cards ( chrome/auto) going for $3-5 thousand dollars.
    I didn't do a "deep dive" on them.

    Trout started out looking like the next Mickey Mantle. Run scoring MACHINE who stole a lot of bases @ 82% success rate and slugged .587 for his first 8 seasons. Find me ANY current player who has done that!

    Injuries have limited him to 1 full season in his last 5, he stopped stealing bases, but he has slugged .580 when he has been able to play.

    Freeman's first 8 years were nice, but he slugged .498 and played 1st base. He led the league once in hits and doubles and never in any other category.

    Of course, since then, Trout can't get on the field and Fred is playing everyday and has increased his SLG to .531.

    The "Trout people" are finally realizing that Mike might be done, while Fred is playing better and playing well in the post season.

    You can invest in any player's cards for any reason, but Fred, on his best day, is nowhere near Mike's first 8 seasons. Even if Mike was an average CF.

    edited to add;

    Trout shouldn't be penalized for playing on bad teams. I do believe in giving Freeman credit for playing well in the post season though.

    I think Trout should be penalized for playing on bad teams. after his 6th season he could have been a free agent and signed with any team. there were rumblings about the Yankees wanting him, but he CHOSE to extend himself with the angels and play for a perenial loser.

    He could have signed with any number of good teams and at least been in the playoff most every season.

    I am convinced that winning is not a priority for Trout.

    They gave him one of the largest contracts ever on the extension and theres family things involved too. Harper signed with Philly and made it a lower AAV because he didnt want to reach free agency again and his wife was pregnant at the time wanting his kid to grow up in the same place.

    Trout really shouldnt be penalized for the Angels as a team which makes it more impressive what he did there. Hes had multiple cards sell for over 1 million and one of them was just shy of 4 million.

    Obviously what the card and grade is make a big difference but Freeman card has never approached those levels

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2024 7:58PM

    I'm in the camp that Trout isn't the be-all end-all dude. With this conver, Ohtani and Freddie are better overall by miles to me, just 2cents.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @olb31 said:
    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    I took a quick look and both guys have rookie cards ( chrome/auto) going for $3-5 thousand dollars.
    I didn't do a "deep dive" on them.

    Trout started out looking like the next Mickey Mantle. Run scoring MACHINE who stole a lot of bases @ 82% success rate and slugged .587 for his first 8 seasons. Find me ANY current player who has done that!

    Injuries have limited him to 1 full season in his last 5, he stopped stealing bases, but he has slugged .580 when he has been able to play.

    Freeman's first 8 years were nice, but he slugged .498 and played 1st base. He led the league once in hits and doubles and never in any other category.

    Of course, since then, Trout can't get on the field and Fred is playing everyday and has increased his SLG to .531.

    The "Trout people" are finally realizing that Mike might be done, while Fred is playing better and playing well in the post season.

    You can invest in any player's cards for any reason, but Fred, on his best day, is nowhere near Mike's first 8 seasons. Even if Mike was an average CF.

    edited to add;

    Trout shouldn't be penalized for playing on bad teams. I do believe in giving Freeman credit for playing well in the post season though.

    I think Trout should be penalized for playing on bad teams. after his 6th season he could have been a free agent and signed with any team. there were rumblings about the Yankees wanting him, but he CHOSE to extend himself with the angels and play for a perenial loser.

    He could have signed with any number of good teams and at least been in the playoff most every season.

    I am convinced that winning is not a priority for Trout.

    They gave him one of the largest contracts ever on the extension and theres family things involved too. Harper signed with Philly and made it a lower AAV because he didnt want to reach free agency again and his wife was pregnant at the time wanting his kid to grow up in the same place.

    Trout really shouldnt be penalized for the Angels as a team which makes it more impressive what he did there. Hes had multiple cards sell for over 1 million and one of them was just shy of 4 million.

    Obviously what the card and grade is make a big difference but Freeman card has never approached those levels

    those are some excuses as to why Trout didnt choose to sign with a contender, but ultimately, it was his choice. He did sign a big extension, but he certainly could have gotten more in FA and gone to a contender.

    That to say that winning is not his top priority. He literally chose his life.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2024 6:23AM

    @olb31 said:
    bad teams -- overlooked teams -- inconsequential teams. All the same. Hard to ignore that Mantle playing for the Yankees didn't help the value of his cards. Same with Jeter. In baseball there are 3 main teams, Boston (3), LAD (2) Yankees (1). The team definitely matters.

    The Angels. No one cares.

    In regard to cards there is an X factor that goes beyond what the player does on the field. Don Mattingly and Kent Hrbek have nearly identical career stats in counting stats and rate stats. Yet their rookie cards are light years apart and they are in similar popular/pop # sets.

    The markets they played in is the obvious difference.

    However, a peak does influence how great people view a player and that is one aspect that helps Mattingly. He was viewed as greatness for a few year stretch. That peak aspect also helped Trout tremendously. How long it sustains if Trout is effectlvely finished, we don't know yet. Trout does not have the same market/following that Mattingly garnered when he played.

    I don't think Freeman ever had that peak recognition and that is why you hear @Basebal21 have luke-warm thoughts(all valid) in regard to Freeman. Freeman is going to need career counting numbers AND have his Los Angeles years be emblazoned on the minds of LA collectors with WS wins and big moments. I said that before about Freeman, but unfortunately for him, he did that this year but all anyone could still talk about is Ohtani. Freeman is getting overshadowed right now by his teammate. Ten years from now, will it be Ohtani or Freeman who is the trademark of these Dodger teams? That is hurting Freeman.

    Freeman needs 3,000 hits. He needs that club. Needs to do stuff in his era that separates him from the other HOF type players. Trout did that for a six year stretch(didn't sustain it), but it was enough to send his cards into price heights that Freeman never achieved.

    Trout could still hit 500 home runs. If Trout does that in addition to his elite peak and MVP awards, and Freeman finishes with 2,879 hits and a lifetime 135 OPS+, then Trout will hold better value. Like it or not people, the world looks at stuff like WAR and that is the trend in what people view is great. So in regard to this topic, the story isn't written yet, but Trout has a heckuva head start on Freeman. Freeman needs a heckuva twilight to come close to catch his place in the card industry.

    Remember, as much as you read on here from a few zealots that harp on 12 at bats from 2014 in an ALDS about Trout, it is obvious the market didn't have the same view point as these few people. Those are fringe viewpoints and have no bearing on reality or the market. Heck, in the end, if Trout hits 500 HR, it might not be a bad idea to buy the dip on Trout.

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Obviously what the card and grade is make a big difference but Freeman card has never approached those levels"

    This was posted above by basebal21 -- and this is exactly the point of the thread. Shouldn't Freeman's cards be approaching Trout's in value or sells price? I think Freeman is darn close in a lot of categories and 2 WS rings, makes it close to even.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "In regard to cards there is an X factor that goes beyond what the player does on the field. Don Mattingly and Kent Hrbek have nearly identical career stats in counting stats and rate stats. Yet their rookie cards are light years apart and they are in similar popular/pop # sets."

    One played for the Yankees and one played for the Twins - says volumes. Just like Trout playing for the Angels -- they suck.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dodgers will probably be favored to win it all again in 2025. So there's that.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    "In regard to cards there is an X factor that goes beyond what the player does on the field. Don Mattingly and Kent Hrbek have nearly identical career stats in counting stats and rate stats. Yet their rookie cards are light years apart and they are in similar popular/pop # sets."

    One played for the Yankees and one played for the Twins - says volumes. Just like Trout playing for the Angels -- they suck.

    Except Trout's cards have been in the stratosphere so what you are saying is only a partial factor.

    As stated above, Trout was viewed as upper stratosphere elite and he indeed was(only bias or ignorant people will not agree with that). That has carried a lot of weight like it did with Mattingly and did indeed send his cards to the stratosphere.

    Freeman has been about as good as Paul Goldschmdit. Excellent player but nothing that will send his cards to Trout's level. Freeman is going to need to separate himself by being other worldly elite like Trout did, or play for a very long time at a very high level.

    Trout indeed was at a historic level before he got hurt. The zealots that look at the 12 at bats in 2014 are fringe opinions that have carried zero weight(and will be ironic when those same opinions are applied to Bobby Witt's dismal 2024 post season ALDS performance that was even worse).

    Trout has certainly been soft the last several years. He does still have time to hit close to 500 HR. 450 HR and 3 MVP's and elite WAR and elite other accurate stats in the end will be better than Freeman having a 135 OPS+ with 2,877 hits and World Series wins where only Ohtani is being talked about.

    My concern with Freeman now is those injuries he was battling in the post season. I sure hope his Kirk Gibson esque WS home run does not also mirror Gibson's demise soon after.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 as per position you do have a point with Trout getting too much credit for being in CF the last seven years(but definitely not in his prime when he ran well).

    Even independent of position if you look at their run expectancy(which is more accurate than the biased zealot viewpoints)

    Trout is 588 runs above league average.
    Freeman is 555 runs above league avearage.

    That is close, but when you see it took Freeman 2,000 more plate appearances to still be behind, it really isn't that close at all offensively, regardless of what position they play.

    Now, it will become more interesting if Freeman got that number up to 730 and and even if. he did it in 3,500 more plate appearances you can make it a case of 'how you look at it'.

    So, like I said, Freeman needs to play at a higher level for several more years to get into same category as Trout, even regardless of position. That is assuming Trout doesn't come back and add another 80 Home Runs in his career himself, etc...

    Heck, Trout only has two lesss season of 150+ games than George Brett has. Brett got two of them at first base. A move to DH is going to be in the cards for Trout and that will help that.

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Card prices are established by opinions of the buying customers. And not always based on on field accomplishments. Popularity/image/likability are factors as well.
    In a New York market you could sell more Mattingly cards then Bonds even though Bonds has the better on field numbers.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    @craig44 as per position you do have a point with Trout getting too much credit for being in CF the last seven years(but definitely not in his prime when he ran well).

    Even independent of position if you look at their run expectancy(which is more accurate than the biased zealot viewpoints)

    Trout is 588 runs above league average.
    Freeman is 555 runs above league avearage.

    That is close, but when you see it took Freeman 2,000 more plate appearances to still be behind, it really isn't that close at all offensively, regardless of what position they play.

    Now, it will become more interesting if Freeman got that number up to 730 and and even if. he did it in 3,500 more plate appearances you can make it a case of 'how you look at it'.

    So, like I said, Freeman needs to play at a higher level for several more years to get into same category as Trout, even regardless of position. That is assuming Trout doesn't come back and add another 80 Home Runs in his career himself, etc...

    Heck, Trout only has two lesss season of 150+ games than George Brett has. Brett got two of them at first base. A move to DH is going to be in the cards for Trout and that will help that.

    Very good points. Trout was a STUD, but now people think he's a dud.
    Superior to Freeman and Ohtani both by any measure.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @olb31 said:
    Now after this nice post above showing the comparisons of the two, should Trout rookies be selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than Freeman? If I remember correctly, one of Trout's cards sold for over a million dollars. I doubt any Freddie card has sold for $20,000 (probably a lot less).

    Trout plays for a terrible organizations known for losing, he stays hurt, has never won one playoff game and has only played in 3.

    Freeman -- MVP and WS MVP - 2 time WS Champ. stats are reasonably comparable.

    Cards should be reasonably the same price, imho.

    I took a quick look and both guys have rookie cards ( chrome/auto) going for $3-5 thousand dollars.
    I didn't do a "deep dive" on them.

    Trout started out looking like the next Mickey Mantle. Run scoring MACHINE who stole a lot of bases @ 82% success rate and slugged .587 for his first 8 seasons. Find me ANY current player who has done that!

    Injuries have limited him to 1 full season in his last 5, he stopped stealing bases, but he has slugged .580 when he has been able to play.

    Freeman's first 8 years were nice, but he slugged .498 and played 1st base. He led the league once in hits and doubles and never in any other category.

    Of course, since then, Trout can't get on the field and Fred is playing everyday and has increased his SLG to .531.

    The "Trout people" are finally realizing that Mike might be done, while Fred is playing better and playing well in the post season.

    You can invest in any player's cards for any reason, but Fred, on his best day, is nowhere near Mike's first 8 seasons. Even if Mike was an average CF.

    edited to add;

    Trout shouldn't be penalized for playing on bad teams. I do believe in giving Freeman credit for playing well in the post season though.

    I think Trout should be penalized for playing on bad teams. after his 6th season he could have been a free agent and signed with any team. there were rumblings about the Yankees wanting him, but he CHOSE to extend himself with the angels and play for a perenial loser.

    He could have signed with any number of good teams and at least been in the playoff most every season.

    I am convinced that winning is not a priority for Trout.

    They gave him one of the largest contracts ever on the extension and theres family things involved too. Harper signed with Philly and made it a lower AAV because he didnt want to reach free agency again and his wife was pregnant at the time wanting his kid to grow up in the same place.

    Trout really shouldnt be penalized for the Angels as a team which makes it more impressive what he did there. Hes had multiple cards sell for over 1 million and one of them was just shy of 4 million.

    Obviously what the card and grade is make a big difference but Freeman card has never approached those levels

    those are some excuses as to why Trout didnt choose to sign with a contender, but ultimately, it was his choice. He did sign a big extension, but he certainly could have gotten more in FA and gone to a contender.

    That to say that winning is not his top priority. He literally chose his life.

    Trout got 430 million several years before he was scheduled to be a free agent. Its more likely he would have gotten less money as teams werent exactly shelling out money after the 2020 season which is when he would have been a free agent and he was injured and a genetic back disease found in 2021.

    If a teams trying to give you 430 million and there arent absurd deferrals one it you take it every time, especially when you are years away from free agency.

    Even ignoring how risky and dumb it would have been to turn down their offer, Its not like he took a below market deal to stay with the Pirates. The Angels should be competitive and would be if their front office wasnt so incompetent. Part of that is on Moreno who the second decade of his ownership has turned into him just wanting money and being of of the biggest leaders of campaigning for lower luxury taxes.

    Even with that though they still spend enough to win and have had everything from a pitcher die from the team providing them with illegal pain meds to not trading Othani when they had no plans to resign him, and dumb spending like the Rendon contract

    Taking a 430 million dollar off from a team that should be in the playoff conversation every year and just isnt for various reasons is hardly an indictment on Trouts desire to win

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    basebal21 - there are many people here in the united states that get bought everyday -- but that doesn't mean its a good thing for them or anyone else. personally i could have made a lot more money for the first 25 years of my career, but i chose a path that was good for me and my family, and after 25 years it paid off. my decisions were not based on greed. trout unfortunately took the money instead of long-term success for his team(family). team (family) success should always best cash.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    "Obviously what the card and grade is make a big difference but Freeman card has never approached those levels"

    This was posted above by basebal21 -- and this is exactly the point of the thread. Shouldn't Freeman's cards be approaching Trout's in value or sells price? I think Freeman is darn close in a lot of categories and 2 WS rings, makes it close to even.

    Rings need to be taken out of the equation. Its a team sport where guys get 3-5 at bats. There are very very few times like the Johnson Schilling AZ WS run where they came close to putting the team on their back. Trout could his a HR every single at bat and the Angels still wouldnt be likely to win the WS.

    I do like Freeman as a player, but Freeman has never been considered the best player at his own position much less the best player in baseball. Yes he won an MVP in 2020 but that was a 60 game season and all awards from that year should be discarded. The majority of his career he was never seriosuly in those discussions where its the opposite for Trout.

    I would be scared of buying and more likely to be selling them right now while theyre on the high from the WS MVP. As 1948 mentioned even with Freeman going forward Othani is going to overshadow him. Betts has the ability too as well. So does Yamamoto and Roki Sasaki could too if he signs with the Dodgers as expected.

    I would have Freeman on my team for sure, but I am very confident we wont see Freemans cards get close to Trouts highest ones. The highest ever for a Freeman is less than 50k

    Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007

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