$1 1893-S Morgan Dollar (CHOPMARK) Very Rare
Majortuckers
Posts: 6 ✭
Here is a great coin- First Rare because it is an 1893-S Morgan. Second PCGS did in fact authenticate and attributed as Genuine ChopMark but yet graded it as details. So they acknowledge the ChopMark on one hand but on the other hand Detailed it with a 98 (demage) due to the ChopMark. I love this coin so much that I have own this coin twice. I had seller remorse and tracked it down and bought it a second time. I would love the coin worlds thoughts on this coin and there thoughts on the value. I value the coin around $7,000 to $10,000 dollar because there is only one that I know of as ChopMark (Pop of 1). Is it super Rare? Is it an Oddity? Tell me your thoughts. Am I to high or to low on the value?
Facts: $1893-S Morgan Dollar – Survival rate of this coin 8,000 to 12,00 -PCGS Authenticated and attributed the ChopMarks
My opinion and Thoughts
“ As we know Trade Dollars were sent overseas mainly to China for international Trade. China Merchants counterstamped (Chopmark) than to test/verify their silver compared to the 8 Reals the main trading at the time in Internation trade in China. My thoughts- Post 1880’s some of the merchants from China Migrated to the Untied States mainly in the San Francisco area some opened up shops/ mercantile while others migrated and worked on the Rail way system building the Rail Roads. I believe a China’s Merchant continued his ways of Counterstamping that he did in China when he first arrived to the United States. It makes sense to me. Merchant in San Francisco. Coin minted in San Francisco. With all that said that is my educated Hypothesis on the coin.
Please post your thoughts- I’m interested to hear.
Answers
I'm confident others will chime in but as interesting as that is that does not look like a genuine chopmark to me.
I agree. That looks like ordinary damage and not a chopmark.
As a Morgan dollar collector the fact that someone marked up an 1893 S hurts me inside. I still need one!
I think the coin is cool and believe it is worth quite a bit, but in my opinion it is worth less than an otherwise original F12 1893-S. The marks might or might not be chop marks in the manner that we think of with Trade dollars, but they appear too generic for me to embrace the coin as definitively having authentic chops.
Regardless, it is quite cool!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Very unlikely to be a Chinese chopmark. Appears to be a generic counterstamp of some kind.
I agree with the above, unfortunately. I should also add I am not a chop mark expert but any novice can easily tell that these are not chops marks but damage via possible pseudo counter stamping of sorts and I am using the term counter stamping loosely.
If I might chime in, I do not think that I would have called those chop marks back when I was Authenticating. I probably would have said something like “random punches.”
Just random damage, possibly from a handmade square nail.
Not a traditional Chinese chopmark.
Never seen a chopmark like that before.
At one time there was a 1795 flowing hair dollar on ebay with a similar grid of punch marks, also in a PCGS holder that stated damage, chopmarks.
A flowing hair dollar with legit chops would not languish on ebay or any other site 😂
Not sure why pcgs would label these coins as.chopmarked?
I appreciate the feedback so far. Please keep them coming. Goes back to the original posted question. PCGS Attributed it ChopMark. We all agree so far they are not the traditional type of ChopMarks that you see on Trade Dollars.
So why did PCGS Attribute the COIN "ChopMark" but give it Details (Demange). This coin is to Rare "Key DATE" of the Morgans- so this isn't the coin to do a science Project on. -The Marks are deep in the coin like you would see in a ChopMark Trade Dollar.
Keep the feedback coming. Thank you
At some point this coin was worth a dollar, so the rarity was irrelevant.
I am aware too sometimes a coin have more than a single issue yet PCGS will label the most excessive one only on the insert. For example, the OP's coin might also be cleaned and if not for the 'ChopMark' on the insert would state 'cleaned' instead.
peacockcoins
They look more like pock marks than chop marks.
Frustrating because I can't get PCGS to consistently put "ChopMark" on the label of my legitimate Chinese chopmarked US coins, but this one with some other kind of damage gets the label. So inconsistent, oh well.
Would'nt there exist a similar pattern and style documented or specialist identified ...in order to acquire a chopmark label?
I have had a similar mark on a Bust Half and Bust quarter.
see them on EBay alot.... like this one
Very great point - "Would'nt there exist a similar pattern and style documented or specialist identified ...in order to acquire a chopmark label" Very good point
Yeah doesnt look like a mark
Assuming they are legit chop marks, I'm not sure how big the collector community is that they need or want an 1893-S with chop marks that they would pay any kind of premium for it.
http://ProofCollection.Net
No. The short answer is there don't seem to be any clear rules about what will and will not be termed a 'chop mark' by PCGS - many legitimately chopped US issues (apart from Trade Dollars) come back with a 'Damage' designation and nothing else, and then sometimes the 'ChopMark' (no space) label is used for unidentified counterstamps or generic damage like some of the pieces shown below. The Draped Bust Quarter just has a generic punch, and the Oak Tree Twopence an unidentified counterstamp; both are unknown with genuine Chinese chops.
Thanks for sharing your two examples. I'm glad to see other coins that PCGS Attributed with ChopMarks. These coins would make a very interesting article for the magazine Coin World to do.
I'm confident there would be robust demand if this were legitimately chopmarked and the price would likely exceed normal pricing for an F12ish coin.
By the way OP, PCGS does not verify whether chop marks are genuine. The only thing they guarantee is that the coin is genuine. Sometimes verifying chops is more art than science. In this case, neither art nor science is required.
This is a single punch - a square-faced punch with two cuts through the face.
The OP's could looks like three separate hits from a small square "punch".
Are the terms “counterstamped” and “countermarked” obsolete? I always found them useful for describing something like the OP coin.
I just looked at my collection, and I too have an old 50c with a square counterpunch that our hosts called a chopmark but isn't. I guess it is pretty common attribution by our hosts and something we should not get too excited about or take too seriously.
That was my first thought. Old nails were rectangular in cross section and it looks like that was what was used. Chop marks are normally Chinese characters. It's anyone's guess why these punch marks were made.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Chopmarks are damage to a coin. Even thou some may want to collect them it is a details coin whether the chopmarks are real or not.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Does not resemble anything cataloged in Rose's book on Chopmarks. Cheers, RickO
Great Professional Feedback on this coin. So before this thread bleeds out in the next few days. Here is the last question on this coin.
Greysheet bid for a F12 is $4,300 The last Fine 12 sold at auction was on 22 MAR 23 at Stacks and Bowers for $4320.
Knowing that this is a population of 1- Holder as ChopMark-(That is what PCGS says). Some say it is ChopMark some say it is punched etc. What do you value it at?
What is the value.
Also Mr. ChopmarkedTrades who posted the two pics of his ChopMark coins the 1807 25c and the 1662 2 Pence if you are selling those two coins I would like a chance to buy them. I can be reached at todd@majortuckerscoinandbullion.com
Thank you all for your honest and value feedback.
My personal OPINION:
The coin is not chopmarked, it is merely damaged. It is still a much sought after key date Morgan Dollar and will still have a strong market. Because of the damage I would drop its grade to G4 for valuation purposes. (Again, this represents my personal OPINION.)
This sums up my opinion. Of course the coin is not worthless. I bet many here would not touch it with a ten foot pole. I for one would only consider it at a decent discount of the Greysheet due to the lack of interest of the large swath of the collecting population. JMHO
Mark
If it were half the price of an undamaged coin I would consider buying a coin like that. Deeper discount if it wasn't a tough date.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
The population can be whatever you want it to be. I have some antique square nails, and if you supply the host coins I'll make as many as you want.
As was stated by another poster, PCGS was not authenticating or validating the "chopmark". They were simply using that term to describe the damage.
I have no idea what that does to the value, so I'll let others weigh in on that.
The "pop 1" is irrelevant. Last I checked, PCGS does not publish pop reports for details coins so how would you know it is pop 1?
Some of the foremost chopmark experts in the world (not me, I'm just an enthusiast) have posted on this thread and agreed that this is in no way a chopmark.
That being said, my guess is it would retail around $2000-2500.
This coin with this damage is unique so the only way to determine its value is to put it in an auction such as eBay or Great Collections. The CDN Grey Sheets or any other price guide won't help you here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If it's not a"Chopmark" as in reference to the Asian character verification punch, than why call it a chopmark on the label? I don't get that rationale.
How is that a positive long term scenario for valuation of authentic Chopmarked coins?
Does not make sense IMO.
I'd prefer a no problem example in the best grade that you could get for $7K.
As others have said, this is most likely not a chopmark. If you put it up for auction, it is unlikely that any chopmark collectors would bid on it as such.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
The 1893-S is the only Morgan I lack for what I would consider to be a complete set. It hurts a little bit to see one damaged.
Personally, speaking only for myself (and I don't collect chop-marked coins), I would value that coin at considerably less than a problem-free F12 copy of the same issue. It may be that one who collects chop-marked coins would disagree with me, but I also suspect that one who values chop-marked coins would want one with an interesting chop-mark, not such a generic one.
The coin is what it is. Very rare and desirable.
If you want an example of an 1893-S Morgan, I would not look past this coin.
Most collectors "in the hunt" with deep pockets are probably the only ones that can afford it.
Pete
There isn't any strategy behind it, chops are just not high-enough value to justify paying particularly close attention to them, or the rules that are applied to grading. The only examples where the grade actually matters are PCGS-slabbed US Trade Dollars with chops, because they give numerical grades and are collected more intensely than any other chopmarked type.
Those coins aren't mine, they're from the Heritage Auctions archives. No idea who owns them.
Good discussion here. In the opinion of this 40 year dealer this coin is erroneously described as "Chopmarked" (I think these are three separate tiny punches, possibly from a square nail, but that said, it is possible that this might be some obscurely catalogued known chop). The "Genuine" designation is accurate however, regardless of whether it is or isn't a chop. Chopmarks by definition are done outside the minting process and thus are post mint damage to a coin... and IMO all should be details graded coins (though apparently via oversight some exist without details labels).
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
telephoto- Thank you for insight- well laid out. What do you value the coin at.
PCGS is just describing the type of damage.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
And erroneously at that.
I've seen chopmarked pieces sell at problem free price for the grade levels to interested chop collectors if the coin is rarely seen chopped- but the question is- is this a known genuine period chop? If that cannot be established and/or the chop community doesn't think it merits a premium then it would likely sell IMO in the range of G+ to VG money as a damaged 93S.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Here's my take on this topic and the OP coin.
If the chopmark crowd thought this coin was legitimately chopmarked in China, it would sell for as much or more than a straight graded example. Probably much more. Supply and demand. There are so few legit chopmarked Morgans, let alone a 93-S.
However, this coin is just another damaged Morgan and almost certainly would sell as such despite what the label says. The label could say DMPL but that wouldn't make it true.
I can’t believe they marked it as a chop mark, who’s going to recognize it?
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
No, not for me. Love the pics 📸