The ANA'S WfOM money shows
krueger
Posts: 884 ✭✭✭✭
Why has the ANA WFOM show avoided a west of the rockies show the last 7 now 8 years (2024).?
The largest state ANA membership is in California! Why are we we being ignored?
Anyone in the know that can explane this? Anyone with Inside info.
Anahiem in 2016 was last west coast show. Anahiem, Las Vegas , sandiego would be great cities.
PCGS show in Vegas regularly.
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Toxic tax environment for starters. Dealers avoid spending too much time in California for that reason alone. The Long Beach show has enough trouble getting people to attend from out of state, and last time I was there it seemed like it was already on life support. Adding a major, multi-day show in California will mean people will choose between it and Long Beach.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
A couple things. One is the sales tax nexus issue. Out of State dealers need to limit their count of days doing business in California (I think it is 10, but forget) in order to not have to deal with permits and tax. The WFoM is a full week of business, minimum of 5 days. However, I think the major consideration is cost. They were in California a few times. The hotel rates for summer in California is very high. Book rooms for a week for yourself and your employees/helpers, and that is a high overhead bar to get past in sales. Retail folks at the show also face that expense.
CA, high crime areas, tax issues, and high costs to have the show there. Three strikes and you're out.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Lastly, we need a convention center that wants the ANA, unlike a group of Doctors we don't rent suites, we don't have $150/plate catered meals, etc.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The way things are now I cannot see an ANA show west of the Rockies anytime soon.
Ehh. The way things are going in San Francisco, it might not be too long before the city makes the ANA an offer it can't refuse. 😂
Unions could be another issue. How close is the convention center to the LAX?
Are there reasonably priced rooms and within walking distance of the venue.
There's a possibility that the cities don't respond to the ANA proposal. Having
4,500 to 5,000 attend a convention is not appealing to most cities. They want events
that have 20,000+ attendees. Hope and pray that Chicago/Rosemont and Pittsburg
don't give up on us. If that happens we will be stuck with cities that are not direct
flights. A few years ago there was a thread dealing with this topic. Charmy presented
several reasons why the ANA sticks with Rosemont and one or two other cities. I tried
to Google it but has no luck.
The cities in CA are fast losing population due to the high crime, taxes etc. Every day we see stories about people/businesses leaving San Francisco and other locations. Cheers, RickO
The ANA will be in Pittsburgh in 2023.
Rosemont 2024.
Oklahoma City 2025.
Pittsburgh 2026.
I have been to every ANA since 1970. Most dealers and collectors in the East do not want to travel so far to the West.
Do collectors in the West want to travel so far east?
I'm sure travel and cost are considerations. I'm also sure that tax laws play a role. But most of the responses in this thread show an anti-California prejudice that is barely rooted in reality. For example, when did Chicago get safer than the entire state of California?
when did Chicago get safer than the entire state of California?
The ANA is not held in Chicago - it's in Rosemont right next to O'Hare, an area I'm extremely comfortable walking around. On the other hand, if it was in downtown Chicago, I wouldn't go.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/938435/ana-news-ana-board-to-consider-site-selections-for-future-conventions
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I live in downtown Chicago and I couldn't agree more.
The 2009 ANA in Los Angeles was the emptiest bourse floor I've ever seen. I remember QDB sitting at a table, by himself, wtih zero visitors.
That could also be because the global economy and the coin market was in free fall rather than "it was in CA".
I was at that show. It was in a bad part of town. It was probably the worse attended ANA that I have been to in decades.
I remember walking for at least 20 minutes to get to the convention center every day. I also remember tumbleweeds on the bourse floor.
Four months ago today I was enjoying the ANA Convention in Phoenix. The show was well attended - and the last time I looked at a map it was west of the Rockies.
"Well attended" is relative. The attendance in Phoenix was roughly half that of a typical WFOM, and around 1/3 that of a typical FUN show. Fine for a regional show. Not so much for the premier event of the only Congressionally chartered numismatic association.
If the ANA held a summer show in AZ, CA, CO, etc. and it only attracted 4-5K participants, it would be considered a big fail.
That's when I had a conversation with him.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
And you're saying there is NO PLACE in the entire state of California? C'mon.
Probably not. I was half kidding about San Francisco, but, if it keeps on its current trajectory, it might be viable in the near future.
It's not really about safety, since any place can be made safe with the appropriate level of security. It's about cost, a suitable venue's willingness to accommodate ANA's needs and inability to meet customary food, beverage and room minimums, and then the membership's willingness to travel to the location.
Right now, there probably is not anywhere in CA that checks every box. Does anyone actually think the ANA has an inherent bias against CA?
There is no place in California that is exempt from the California tax nexus rules, which means there is a finite number of days that out of state dealers can spend at shows no matter where in the state they are held, which would probably mean the end of the Long Beach show if an ANA were held there. Wanna bet that our hosts are either hoping there won't be a CA ANA or actively dissuading it?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
ANA in Vegas would be fun. Probably won’t happen though.
It would have a ton going for it except (in Nevada):
"For all private bullion sales, like bars or nuggets, there is no sales tax imposed as long as the price is for the value of the metal not the shape it is in at the time of the sale. If the precious metal has a face value, such as a coin, and the value is more than 50% higher than the face value, it is taxable."
I already acknowledged the tax situation.
So then what else is there to say? Why would anyone voluntarily subject themself to a tax when there is a viable tax-free alternative? Because the ANA cannot attract 8,000 people to a show outside the Golden State? And this before even confronting the other obstacles to having a show in CA.
"when did Chicago get safer than the entire state of California?
The ANA is not held in Chicago - it's in Rosemont right next to O'Hare, an area I'm extremely comfortable walking around. On the other hand, if it was in downtown Chicago, I wouldn't go.
O'Hare airport is owned and is part of the city of Chicago!! ( beware of its security controlled by Chicago city.!) Long ago Mayor Daley made sure of that.
Excluding Los Angeles proper and San Francisco proper. Anaheim , San Diego and Vegas are safe, cities I have no problem
going there . Do not believe everything you read in the press and extrapolate it all over California. Southern California has three major airports. LAX, John Wayne ,Ontario. I never use LAX because everyone thinks it is the only Airport and is too busy.
PCGS has shows in Vegas several times a year. They have no problems I am aware of. I just had one of the best Long Beach shows in awhile as the new PCGS show owners improved it. Very safe there, no problems, good security. Bourse floor was packed, isles full . Dozens in line all day to submit to PCGS. I don't think its dying. (ongoing since 1964)
California Nexus visits allowedI are quite high so I thing that is just a fear/ excuse factor.
Majority of ANA members live on the west coast. Expensive for collectors to fly to Chicago and further east same as dealers coming the other way. Most have frequent flyer miles. Most collectors on the west coast will not attend.
As I said we collectors here on the west coast are being ignored in favor of dealers convenience. The ANA is not just a dealers organization.
The Phoenix show was not the WFOM money show its was the smallish money show. I've been to a number of them . not anymore, expense versus results not worth it.,
The majority of ANA members live east of the Mississippi River.
Majority of ANA members live on the west coast.
If there are so many ANA members out west, perhaps it's time for you folks to use your clout and remedy the tax situation in your respective states. Do that and you may well get an ANA convention.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
The Neuxs being referred to as a concern for California is 15 days. There were efforts for the Anaheim show to have the state provide an exemption or the like for Anaheim show, but those efforts were not successful. Hence LB dealers currently not triggering the 15 day threshold either skip one of the LB shows or skip an ANA in CA.
Also, CA has the highest sales tax (on numismatics) of any show we attend; and we do about 40 a year all over the country. Granted, there is an exemption for sales above $2000. For dealers having significant non-exempt sales below the $2000 threshold, the loss of sales can be significant. Our experience, is a significant number of customers pass on sales under the $2000 threshold when we point to the sign in our case about adding sales tax. Occasionally though, a few add coins to go over the threshold.
The simple answer for California would be for dealers to skip the Summer Long Beach show in favor of an August ANA.
Anaheim nor LA brought the attendance that the ANA hoped for and San Francisco doesn't have a convention space large enough on a single floor to host the show without using multiple floors (which increases security expenses).
I don't prefer to have to travel to California for another show, but I have always been a proponent of Anaheim as it makes a "destination" for the show that should attract more families and collectors due to the nearby activities.
I can't convince my wife and kids to come to Rosemont (I can't blame them!), definitely not Oklahoma City in August, or even Pittsburgh. There are a host of issues with ANA WFOM locations, but we have to do what is best for the organization long-term and for the dealers who attend the show. Honestly, that's why I ran for ANA board. I'm tired of complaining about things and want to help try to make a difference with some ideas.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Thank you Sir for this well though out response and for your willingness to serve.