1964 SMS Set. Eat your hearts out boys.
soflyrly
Posts: 10 ✭
Say hello, to my little friends! 
14
soflyrly
Posts: 10 ✭
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Welcome to (or back to) the forum.
Not at all surprisingly, that’s clearly not an SMS set.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not even worth enough to buy lunch. And congrats on creating a new (another) alt account.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
As long as it's special to you, that's what matters.
The name has since faded from my mind, what was it again?
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I’m thinking those “coins” are just pictures of coins. Notice how warped the dime is? Could just be a weird angle though.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I'm just thinking........ How would I crack them outta there?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Unless your coins look like these (top pops courtesy of Coin Facts), they are not 1964 SMS coins.
Take a peek and let us know (with better pictures of your coins, both sides) what you think after comparing your coins to those pictured below.
Joined three years ago. . . locked and loaded for this first thread/post.
peacockcoins
Oopsy daisy! Clean that foot wound before you bandage it up. Peace Roy
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Looks like a doorstop to me.
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Does NGC have a special slab for that holder?
@soflyrly... Welcome aboard.... Cheers, RickO
We already thought that.
Why would think we think that?
Edit: OP changed the title of the thread.
He had written (paraphrased) something like “You guys are gonna think I suck”
A fun set to give away to a kid
Amazing set, where did you get them?
You suck? More like you wish
Welcome to the forums
Interesting thread title, “Spoiler alert! You guys are really gonna think I suck.”
(looks like it was dug up)
Welcome to the Forum!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Am I missing something here? This doesn't look like an SMS set to me...
...and ... Welcome to the Forum!
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If your name is Eva Adams, it’s a possibility; otherwise it’s a no. 😃
Not sure why you think this is a 1964 SMS, but I wish it was for your sake.
Well it's really going to suck to break them out.
3 months late for April Fools.
And probably 3 years too early for a follow up post from the OP.
I had a 1964 SMS set. There are about two dozen, made in 1965 using dies unused in 1964. They are not in the wild to be cherrypicked.
How do you know they were made in 1965?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I seem to recall that someone had Mint correspondence after they turned up at a show (back in the 70s?) regarding the matter. When was it decided that no proof sets would be made but replaced by SMS sets? It was definitely after then. It is something that stuck for years.
My understanding is that there’s no known correspondence about 1964 SMS coins. And that they first surfaced in a Stack’s auction in 1993. Here’s a link to a Coin World article from 2011:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/1964-sms-coins-are-enigmatic.html
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, that was the 90s, not the 70s. I seem to recall several sets surfaced there.
Nonetheless, if they were produced as trials for the 1965 SMS replacement for proof sets, it is reasonable to expect that they would have been struck after that idea was floored, if not actually decided. Maybe Roger can locate something supporting the drama that created them. They are certainly rarities that go largely unknown by many in the hobby/business.
I have always been a little skeptical as to the 1964 "SMS" coins. I haven't seen evidence that would convince me that the dies for them were special, or that they were special strikes. Supposing that it is true that they came from the mint director's (Eva Adams') estate, they could just be well-preserved early-die-state examples of the regular coins.
The Washington quarter has an aspect to it that makes me wonder.
All 1964 Proof Washington quarters have the "Type-B" proof hub reverse. Most business strike 1964 Philadelphia quarters have the "Type-A" regular hub reverse. Some business strikes have the Type-B reverse (presumably from retired proof dies).
The 1964 SMS Washington Quarter that I saw pictures of has the Type-A reverse. I would think that it would have had the Type-B reverse if it was a legitimate trial for a replacement for normal proof coinage.
Based on a number of Roger’s posts, my impression is that he doesn’t believe the 1964 coins to be anything more than early business strikes.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Roger is strictly of the opinion that the 1964 "SMS" coins are not special at all, but rather just fresh strikes off early dies that were well preserved. Therefore there would be no correspondence.
It seems to coincidental that some experts have said the coins in the Smithsonian from fresh dies and good preservation match the "SMS" coins almost exactly (I need to find where I heard this, but I'm fairly certain someone said this).
Edit: Roger's exact quote:
"Go to the Smithsonian and look at the very early strike coins give to SI by the US Mint. The so-called "1964 SMS" coins look a lot like these -- just early strikes off new dies. Not something specially made.
Further, there is no documentation for any of the "1964 SMS" claims.
Out of thousands of 1964 dies used, there were likely a lot of early strikes off new dies. If you have some, enjoy them for what they are, not for any imaginary special-minty-ness."
Coin Photographer.
why would new dies need so much ugly die polish like the dime?
I was wondering the same about the dies being polished. It seems like all of the so called 64 SMS coins have it.
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If there is some alternative consensus these are actually just high-end business strikes put into holders for presentations by Eva Adams and mostly kept in her estate and later sold, why does PCGS grade them as being different coins and include them in their top 100 modern coin lists?
The dime die polish looks distinctive, so wouldn't it also show up on other non-SMS designated high-end 1964 MS dimes?
I am curious to learn more about these. Can someone please tell me who Roger is?
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
>
Roger Burdette is a numismatic researcher and scholar who wrote several coin books. Unfortunately, he was banned from here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for the information.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Here are all of the SP67, 66, and 65 SMS dime True Views. The bottom two appear to have been struck from the same die where I circled some similar imperfections in blue. The other SP67 on top is different.
If these were done in a special run and carefully collected for several SMS presentation sets, wouldn't they probably be from the same new die?
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
PCGS and NGC are well known for changing the status of coins from being "normal" to something special. There are many instances of this. Several times the only viable explanation for why PCGS/NGC do something is "because we said so", and as expected, this doesn't not always correspond with what research shows.
We know that:
1) The coins have no documentation in mint records as anything special - this is a big deal as a set of new dies would have quite a bit of documentation, especially if they were trial pieces.
2) The coins have very similar surfaces to Smithsonian pieces struck from fresh dies.
3) The coins ONLY have come from the estate of Eva Adams (it appears it is not possible to identify them as special unless they are heavily documented).
4) Many 1964 dimes/quarters/halves show die polish. This would eventually fade as the die wore.
5) The coins look nothing like SMS coins of 1965-67. If they were trial runs for the SMS sets, then they were a horrible trial as they look like regular issue coins of 1964.
6) The surface and characteristics of these coins can be easily explained by calling them early strikes off of new dies, as that is what they likely are. There is no evidence to suggest that the mint die trial runs for the 1965 SMS sets (see above), there is no evidence to suggest that the mint wasted a set of dies to strike a few coins, and there is no evidence suggesting that these are special.
Coin Photographer.
Have the events that have transpired since the Stacks' 1993 auction sales of these coins (including TPG's grading and slabbing these coins as 1964 Special Mint Set coins; multiple publicized sales of these graded and slabbed coins in the market place; and publication of "scholarly???" articles about these coins) created enough inertia to become one of those things that:
"simply is"?
For example:
"the sun rises in the east and sets in the west"; or
"the pope is catholic".
As I understand it, the so-called 1964 SMS coins are essentially defined by their provenance. I am not sure that it is more complicated than that.
BTW, I suspect that this was just a troll thread. The OP joined a few years ago but waited until a few days ago to post for the first time, and they have logged in but not posted a comment since starting this thread.
Also served on CCAC
@RWB
@FlyingAl - Thanks for the discussion of this issue. It is worth noting that not all researchers agree with Roger Burdette's assessment of these coins. The pieces you mention in the Smithsonian (namely, the 1950-1979 coinage in the National Numismatic Collection) are interpreted by Jeff Garrett and Steve Roach as being special strikes in their own right:
Thank you all for your comments regarding these 1964 SMS designated coins.
Yes, this started as a likely a troll thread, but it did allow me to gain some more insight into these coins. At this stage, I do not have any desire to try to collect the expensive SMS coins that are currently listed in the Top 100 Modern coin registry sets, and I have been skeptical of their lack of official documentation as well. Modern coins probably should start in 1965 anyway.
The photos above of the three SMS dimes seem to show that even the consistency of the SMS coins claimed to be documented from the estate, allowing them to be graded SMS, could be somewhat questionable.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Does the sun rise, or does the earth rotate? Even conventional wisdom should still be questioned.
However, the SMS coins do have "inertia", and separate label and coin facts numbers, so of course as very rare items, they are still very collectable to some, just like so many other things.
I feel the 1964 SMS coins should be discussed as special coins with an interesting history in the PCGS Top 100 Modern Coins 10th Anniversary Edition in the set registry, but not listed individually as required coins that must be collected to have a complete set.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Got the rest of the article? I'd be interested in what the characteristics of the coins are.
Coin Photographer.
Unfortunately, no - the first page was all I could find on the web.
Twenty years ago, I researched the Philadelphia National Archives for 4 items in RG104 which contained everything from the mint’s records. I was looking for records on 1964 Franklin half dollars (which were gearing up for production when 11/22/63 changed things) the 1964 Peace dollars ( records referred to them as the “dollar project”),the Kennedy accented hair early proof, and the 1964 SMS coins. I communicated with Roger Burdette who had done a similar research at the National Archives in Maryland.
Regarding the 1964 SMS coins, there is no correspondence.
Ms. Eva Adams’ personal records were donated to her alma mater, UNLV, I think. Roger had someone research those records on his behalf. Nothing.