Determining variety

lrgoodger

I am new to CWT research. I have spent hours searching for an explanation of how to determine which variety I have. For example, I have a F-550E from Ligonier Indiana. The E designation attributes it to proprietor S. Mier & Co. According to NGCcoin.com, there are three varieties. Two are 2a. One is 2b and one is 3a. I cannot find anywhere how to determine what the difference between them is. Can anyone help?

TomB

Howdy and welcome. I don't have any information for you regarding your research, but if you hold on a bit I can virtually guarantee there are others who will be able and willing to help.

messydesk

I'd start with the Civil War Token Red Book, unless someone else has a better idea.

Namvet69

Yup, the CWTRB and lots of page flipping to match up the 2 dies used. It's worth the effort. Good luck. Peace Roy

DCW

Post a photo, and we'll be able to tell you very quickly using this book:
U.S. Civil War Storecards (Fuld) 3rd Edition, 664pp Hardcover.
You can buy it from the Civil War Token Society, even without a membership.

http://www.cwtsociety.com/books.shtml

Attribution is not hard to understand. Usually when a merchant had different "varieties" its because they either had separate dies prepared for the same business or off metals or overstrikes on other coins or tokens were produced.

ricko

@lrgoodger... Welcome aboard.... Looks like you have guidance and information to help you posted above.... Cheers, RickO

mark_dak

Welcome, there's a wealth of knowledge out there on this forum. Post a few good pictures and I can almost guarantee you will get your answer on any specific token. Also looks like you have a couple solid ideas on doing your own research. Good luck.

Mark

lrgoodger

Okay, here goes. I have been metal detecting sinde the 1970s. Over the years I Have turned up 13 Civil War Tokens, most of them from within 100 miles of me. This is in contrast to 500 Indian Head pennies I have dug (got them all but the S mints and 1877 and 1878). This attests to the CWT relative scarcity.

I have been resisting doing this because of the time consuming process of getting good photos. Here are photos of one of the better condition pieces I have found. I have identified it as a MI-190A (not listed on the NGCcoin.com site), but I don't know which variety it might be. I know there is at least 1a and 1b.

I have removed the hard packed dirt from the obverse (except between the letters). There is a small spot of corrosion at 4 o'clock near the rim on the obverse. The reverse still has the hard packed dirt on it.

lrgoodger

Here is another I have identified as MI-250C. I know there are at least varieties 1a and 3a. This one is rarer than the Constantine, MI piece, I believe.

The hard packed dirt has not been removed from this piece.

lrgoodger

Don't know what happened to the photo of the Ligonier piece in the last comment, but here it is.

lrgoodger

Here is the Ligonier, IN piece I identified as F-550E. It is not in as good a condition as the previous two images. Hopefully someone can tell which variety it is.

I appreciate all the help you guys have rendered.

Apparently this would not post because I had a URL in it for the Indian head below. I removed that and just put the photo in.
The Ligonier piece is above.

If you would like to see the potential for ground dug coins, Here is one I found in the early 90s.

lilolme

@lrgoodger said:
Don't know what happened to the photo of the Ligonier piece in the last comment, but here it is.

That looks like this one I think?

http://tokencatalog.com/token_record_forms.php?action=DisplayTokenRecord&td_id=605431&inventory_id=713573&td_image_id=520763&attribution_id=628991&record_offset=17

lrgoodger

That site displays a 3a. How can I tell mine is not a 2a or 2B?

lilolme

@lrgoodger said:
That site displays a 3a. How can I tell mine is not a 2a or 2B?

First I am not a Token collector (just an occasional viewer), so you should double check all of the following token stuff/info. as I might not get it correct.

At the top of the US Forum there is a Resources thread (link below) and in the first post of that thread are various links and information. Go down to the Token subheading and then the tokencatalog link.

Edit to add a /p1 to the link to go to page 1.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1006619/resources-books-links-to-read-on-numismatic-series-errors-and-varieties/p1

On that home page I clicked the search for Indiana. On the next page I used the 'city' sort box and drop down menu to select Ligonier that was noted in the OP. This reduced the list to 35 tokens.

This list has three noted as Fuld IN-550-E and the -3a appeared to look like the OP token (in the later post). However, there is also a -2b listed (IN-550-E-2b) but it has stars on the side opposite the dealer/retailer. So does not appear to be a match. I believe the -2a and -2b are different only by material (a = copper and b = brass).
Note: the website has a different material list under the info tab.

The other one I don't understand, the Fuld IN-550-E-1a as it has a different dealer/retailer on it (I thought the IN-550-E would be the same dealer/retailer). But as pictured it is not a match.

Note: the search feature on this website is variable at best. It seems to work for some words but not others. The TC number search does appear to work if done as described on the pages but perhaps it could also miss sometimes.

lrgoodger

Thanks lilolme. This is the first comprehensive answer I have received to my question. Unfortunately, I am unable to follow your instructions. When I click you link, it takes me to a thread. The first post in that thread is by BustDMs on April 3, 2019 6:20 PM and it has no links in it. When I search the page for the word 'token', it appears only in a post by Goldminers and that post is concerned with Bernard vonNothaus tokens or medallions. I cannot find a Token subheading or tokencatalog link on that page.

lilolme

Interesting. When I click the link I supplied above it takes me to the Resources thread that is pinned to the top of the US Forum and the first post or the OP looks like the below. I was just wanting to make you aware of the Resources thread but here is the link to the TokenCatalog website and then I did what I noted above (Indiana....).

http://tokencatalog.com/index.php

This is the OP of the Resources thread that the previous link goes to for me.

lilolme

@lrgoodger said:
When I click you link, it takes me to a thread. The first post in that thread is by BustDMs on April 3, 2019 6:20 PM and it has no links in it.

I see the post that you note and it is the first post on the second page (page2) for me. The information (Resources) is the first post of the first page (OP).

lrgoodger

Crazy. I tried your link again and it took me to the 3rd page of that thread. I clicked for page 1 and finally got to the place you described. It might be my mouse button acting up again and double clicking when it's not supposed to.

Anyway, I finally got there and that token catalog is just what I have been looking for. Thank you!

It answered one question right away, and that is there are different varieties of dies, and possibly different variety suffixes on the catalog numbers for different metals, too (not clear on that yet).

I agree with you that it is a little disconcerting that proprietor J. Decker is listed as 550-E-1a. I think it is an error on this site, since the NCCcoin.com site lists Decker as 550-D on five varieties.

Thank you again for leading me to this online token catalog.

lrgoodger

Here is the Ligonier, IN piece I identified as F-550E. It is not in as good a condition as the previous two images. Hopefully someone can tell which variety it is.

I appreciate all the help you guys have rendered.

If you would like to see the potential for ground dug coins, Here is one I found in the early 90s.
https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/how-good-can-a-dug-indian-head-be-uncirculated-1864-l.684474/

lrgoodger

Here is the Ligonier, IN piece I identified as F-550E. It is not in as good a condition as the previous two images. Hopefully someone can tell which variety it is.

I appreciate all the help you guys have rendered.

If you would like to see the potential for ground dug coins, Here is one I found in the early 90s.
https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/how-good-can-a-dug-indian-head-be-uncirculated-1864-l.684474/

lrgoodger

Here is the Ligonier, IN piece I identified as F-550E. It is not in as good a condition as the previous two images. Hopefully someone can tell which variety it is.

I appreciate all the help you guys have rendered.

If you would like to see the potential for ground dug coins, Here is one I found in the early 90s.
https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/how-good-can-a-dug-indian-head-be-uncirculated-1864-l.684474/

NewEnglandRarities

@lrgoodger said:
I am new to CWT research. I have spent hours searching for an explanation of how to determine which variety I have. For example, I have a F-550E from Ligonier Indiana. The E designation attributes it to proprietor S. Mier & Co. According to NGCcoin.com, there are three varieties. Two are 2a. One is 2b and one is 3a. I cannot find anywhere how to determine what the difference between them is. Can anyone help?

The book on Fuld CWT token is THE book for attribution. Generally speaking the “a” means copper, b means brass, etc. It is explained in the book. I’m not home with my books to tell you the varieties you have currently, but generally the book will be very clear on the attribution. For example 2a may be one reverse in copper, and 3a will be a different reverse but same obverse in copper.

Edited to add: mostly the value is in rarity or condition. And in lower grade, only unique pieces or close to it have a strong value.