@tommyrusty7 said:
OK, so you think the pitch clock is great, what about the batters clock?
We need some adjustments as the pitchers being hurt is a problem.
do you think 15 seconds is not long enough for a pitcher/catcher to get together on what pitch is to be thrown and then deliver said pitch?
7 seconds for a batter and umpires calling pitchers for "quick pitching" when they arent even set yet is the issue. 20 seconds like in college works perfectly fine and no one complains about it.
And yes pitchers are getting hurt more because of the clock. College starters throw once a week on set days on a 20 second clock in a 40-60 game schedule. MLB starters throw twice a week on a 15 second and really even 8 second clock with how some umpires are doing it for 162 games
why is it that the pitcher/catcher cant get the pitch settled in the 7-8 seconds while the batter is adjusting his whatever, then get set on the rubber and as soon as the ump and batter are set, wind up and deliver the pitch?
this seems very very simple. dont just stand there and look at the clouds while the batter takes his 7-8 seconds, get set and ready to pitch.
There are batters getting strikes called standing in the box. There are pitchers getting balls called for quick pitching. Catchers dont call pitches anymore, the electronic does.
Youire asking people to perform at the highest level over 6 months and no chance of them getting to take a break. The extra 5 seconds college has means a lot.
Go in the back yard and throw 100 pitches according to the rules where you cant come set for 8 seconds. Do that over and over for 6 months and then do it again with the extra 5 seconds
Pitchers arent a pitching machine which theyre being asked to be. Again its not a bad idea, but how theyve done it is not smart
oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
@tommyrusty7 said:
For well over 100 years this game has been played and there have been no problems like this.
Now because of such high salaries the teams need more money to pay the players and ticket prices have gone way up.
Fans are not happy because of the length of games and want to shorten the times between pitches.
Money is at the route of the whole problem.
Baseball needs to look carefully at any proposals to change the game before making any more stupid changes.
They sure did not see what would happen when they made this one as it is flawed to say the least.
The game has been about money since 1869. ultimately, that is why the level of play is so high now. Players get paid handsomely to work on becoming better players year-round. It isn't just a recreational activity now and the skill level of players reflects that.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Here’s some MLB data to go along with the good conversation:
that is an interesting graph. I wonder what the graph of playoff graph would look like? It seems like the pace of games turns to molasses as soon as the calendar hits October.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Here’s some MLB data to go along with the good conversation:
that is an interesting graph. I wonder what the graph of playoff graph would look like? It seems like the pace of games turns to molasses as soon as the calendar hits October.
I agree , I think the same graph but set monthly would tell a lot.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Here’s some MLB data to go along with the good conversation:
Is there a graph that shows pitches per nine inning game? With the true outcome rate rising and lack of complete games by pitchers, strikeouts have greatly increased.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
@tommyrusty7 said:
OK, so you think the pitch clock is great, what about the batters clock?
We need some adjustments as the pitchers being hurt is a problem.
do you think 15 seconds is not long enough for a pitcher/catcher to get together on what pitch is to be thrown and then deliver said pitch?
7 seconds for a batter and umpires calling pitchers for "quick pitching" when they arent even set yet is the issue. 20 seconds like in college works perfectly fine and no one complains about it.
And yes pitchers are getting hurt more because of the clock. College starters throw once a week on set days on a 20 second clock in a 40-60 game schedule. MLB starters throw twice a week on a 15 second and really even 8 second clock with how some umpires are doing it for 162 games
why is it that the pitcher/catcher cant get the pitch settled in the 7-8 seconds while the batter is adjusting his whatever, then get set on the rubber and as soon as the ump and batter are set, wind up and deliver the pitch?
this seems very very simple. dont just stand there and look at the clouds while the batter takes his 7-8 seconds, get set and ready to pitch.
There are batters getting strikes called standing in the box. There are pitchers getting balls called for quick pitching. Catchers dont call pitches anymore, the electronic does.
Youire asking people to perform at the highest level over 6 months and no chance of them getting to take a break. The extra 5 seconds college has means a lot.
Go in the back yard and throw 100 pitches according to the rules where you cant come set for 8 seconds. Do that over and over for 6 months and then do it again with the extra 5 seconds
Pitchers arent a pitching machine which theyre being asked to be. Again its not a bad idea, but how theyve done it is not smart
oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
As I said go try it. Its a monumental misunderstanding of the stress on the body by fans that havent played at such a level.
Hate to break it to you, but playoff games are still going to start at 8 8:30 eastern and go to midnight, fans would revolt at the pitch clock being enforced as it is now and there will bve more commercials
@tommyrusty7 said:
OK, so you think the pitch clock is great, what about the batters clock?
We need some adjustments as the pitchers being hurt is a problem.
do you think 15 seconds is not long enough for a pitcher/catcher to get together on what pitch is to be thrown and then deliver said pitch?
7 seconds for a batter and umpires calling pitchers for "quick pitching" when they arent even set yet is the issue. 20 seconds like in college works perfectly fine and no one complains about it.
And yes pitchers are getting hurt more because of the clock. College starters throw once a week on set days on a 20 second clock in a 40-60 game schedule. MLB starters throw twice a week on a 15 second and really even 8 second clock with how some umpires are doing it for 162 games
why is it that the pitcher/catcher cant get the pitch settled in the 7-8 seconds while the batter is adjusting his whatever, then get set on the rubber and as soon as the ump and batter are set, wind up and deliver the pitch?
this seems very very simple. dont just stand there and look at the clouds while the batter takes his 7-8 seconds, get set and ready to pitch.
There are batters getting strikes called standing in the box. There are pitchers getting balls called for quick pitching. Catchers dont call pitches anymore, the electronic does.
Youire asking people to perform at the highest level over 6 months and no chance of them getting to take a break. The extra 5 seconds college has means a lot.
Go in the back yard and throw 100 pitches according to the rules where you cant come set for 8 seconds. Do that over and over for 6 months and then do it again with the extra 5 seconds
Pitchers arent a pitching machine which theyre being asked to be. Again its not a bad idea, but how theyve done it is not smart
oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
As I said go try it. Its a monumental misunderstanding of the stress on the body by fans that havent played at such a level.
Hate to break it to you, but playoff games are still going to start at 8 8:30 eastern and go to midnight, fans would revolt at the pitch clock being enforced as it is now and there will bve more commercials
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
@tommyrusty7 said:
OK, so you think the pitch clock is great, what about the batters clock?
We need some adjustments as the pitchers being hurt is a problem.
do you think 15 seconds is not long enough for a pitcher/catcher to get together on what pitch is to be thrown and then deliver said pitch?
7 seconds for a batter and umpires calling pitchers for "quick pitching" when they arent even set yet is the issue. 20 seconds like in college works perfectly fine and no one complains about it.
And yes pitchers are getting hurt more because of the clock. College starters throw once a week on set days on a 20 second clock in a 40-60 game schedule. MLB starters throw twice a week on a 15 second and really even 8 second clock with how some umpires are doing it for 162 games
why is it that the pitcher/catcher cant get the pitch settled in the 7-8 seconds while the batter is adjusting his whatever, then get set on the rubber and as soon as the ump and batter are set, wind up and deliver the pitch?
this seems very very simple. dont just stand there and look at the clouds while the batter takes his 7-8 seconds, get set and ready to pitch.
There are batters getting strikes called standing in the box. There are pitchers getting balls called for quick pitching. Catchers dont call pitches anymore, the electronic does.
Youire asking people to perform at the highest level over 6 months and no chance of them getting to take a break. The extra 5 seconds college has means a lot.
Go in the back yard and throw 100 pitches according to the rules where you cant come set for 8 seconds. Do that over and over for 6 months and then do it again with the extra 5 seconds
Pitchers arent a pitching machine which theyre being asked to be. Again its not a bad idea, but how theyve done it is not smart
oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
As I said go try it. Its a monumental misunderstanding of the stress on the body by fans that havent played at such a level.
Hate to break it to you, but playoff games are still going to start at 8 8:30 eastern and go to midnight, fans would revolt at the pitch clock being enforced as it is now and there will bve more commercials
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Well, I think the organizational goals were such that you wanted to be able to have your pitchers try to pitch nine innings, not try to strike out every batter. As such, you’re not throwing 100+ “max effort” pitches a game until the early 2000’s and that style leads to being shot after 5-6 innings and puts much more stress on the arm.
I do believe you are right that these guys - Feller, Ryan, Gibson, Koufax - threw just as hard as players do now, just not as often.
For those who saw him, Roy Halliday was a throwback pitcher. He came up as a max effort strikeout pitcher and racked up lots of K’s but then learned to pitch; he was pitching to contact, keeping hitters off balance, eliciting weak contact and regularly pitching deep into ballgames all on 100 efficient pitches - with a reduced but solid K/9. And this will be mainly for the 40 plus crowd but think about how many pitchers pitched at one velocity most of the time but would ‘dial it up’ a few times a game for a strike three. You see that a lot less often now because every pitch is dialed up.
So now, most guys throw that fastball 70 times and 30 off speed pitches and have nothing left after 5 innings. And that is what the organization wants so that’s what their players do…
…but the pitch clock may swing the pendulum back in the other direction.
We’ll see.
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The art of pitching has died for most pitchers. Now it is throw as hard as you can for several innings.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
I understand the argument that guys now know that they most likely won't go too deep, and reserving something in the tank is no longer part of their MOs. I get it.
I know that is not what this thread is about, but it is about changes to the game. And so much has been lost. You had guys who were fast pitchers. Slow pitchers. Guys dialed it up. They went deep. It was an event within the event, an extra spectacle within the game, watching the pitcher. Some guys you knew always went deep. Would they pitch a complete game? Some guys didn't hardly ever go very deep, but on days when they really had it, all of a sudden, they would stay in there and sometimes we would see magic. You could watch pitchers striving to get to pinnacles they never had before. I could go on and on, but I know I have made my point.
I think Tanner Houck and maybe Bello too fit into that category.
They are great thru the lineup the first time and then get killed from that point on.
They will seldom get a win that way but will still be a very valuable pitchers as game starters as the Rays have done so well.
@tommyrusty7 said:
OK, so you think the pitch clock is great, what about the batters clock?
We need some adjustments as the pitchers being hurt is a problem.
do you think 15 seconds is not long enough for a pitcher/catcher to get together on what pitch is to be thrown and then deliver said pitch?
7 seconds for a batter and umpires calling pitchers for "quick pitching" when they arent even set yet is the issue. 20 seconds like in college works perfectly fine and no one complains about it.
And yes pitchers are getting hurt more because of the clock. College starters throw once a week on set days on a 20 second clock in a 40-60 game schedule. MLB starters throw twice a week on a 15 second and really even 8 second clock with how some umpires are doing it for 162 games
why is it that the pitcher/catcher cant get the pitch settled in the 7-8 seconds while the batter is adjusting his whatever, then get set on the rubber and as soon as the ump and batter are set, wind up and deliver the pitch?
this seems very very simple. dont just stand there and look at the clouds while the batter takes his 7-8 seconds, get set and ready to pitch.
There are batters getting strikes called standing in the box. There are pitchers getting balls called for quick pitching. Catchers dont call pitches anymore, the electronic does.
Youire asking people to perform at the highest level over 6 months and no chance of them getting to take a break. The extra 5 seconds college has means a lot.
Go in the back yard and throw 100 pitches according to the rules where you cant come set for 8 seconds. Do that over and over for 6 months and then do it again with the extra 5 seconds
Pitchers arent a pitching machine which theyre being asked to be. Again its not a bad idea, but how theyve done it is not smart
oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
As I said go try it. Its a monumental misunderstanding of the stress on the body by fans that havent played at such a level.
Hate to break it to you, but playoff games are still going to start at 8 8:30 eastern and go to midnight, fans would revolt at the pitch clock being enforced as it is now and there will bve more commercials
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
They didnt have to. If they chose to work at that pace that was their decision. They also werent told they werent allowed to come set until the batter was ready with 7 seconds to throw from that point on either. They actually didnt throw as hard as today but it was close, they may have had the ability too (velocity measures arent that reliable back than) but pitchers today are expected/told by teams to go max effort every pitch
MLB basically admits they know 15 is to short and that 20 or 25 would be better for everyone and accomplish the same goal by bumping it up to 20 when a runner gets on base. Theres no reason the time should have to change if its the right time to begin with
@Alfonz24 said:
The art of pitching has died for most pitchers. Now it is throw as hard as you can for several innings.
Its not that its died for most pitchers, its just thats what the teams want and thats what gets a player promoted. Theres some better pitchers in the minors than the pros but since they dont light up the radar gun every pitch they will never get a chance in the big leagues and instead we get some of these guys that throw a 100 with a nasty slider and half the time have no idea where the ball is going
A lot of teams wont let a starter face a lineup a 3rd time anyways because thats what their computer says. So they tell their starters they would rather them throw max effort every pitch for 4 or 5 innings than try and go 7 or 8 because theyre going to take them out anyways
@Alfonz24 said:
The art of pitching has died for most pitchers. Now it is throw as hard as you can for several innings.
Its not that its died for most pitchers, its just thats what the teams want and thats what gets a player promoted. Theres some better pitchers in the minors than the pros but since they dont light up the radar gun every pitch they will never get a chance in the big leagues and instead we get some of these guys that throw a 100 with a nasty slider and half the time have no idea where the ball is going
A lot of teams wont let a starter face a lineup a 3rd time anyways because thats what their computer says. So they tell their starters they would rather them throw max effort every pitch for 4 or 5 innings than try and go 7 or 8 because theyre going to take them out anyways
...
I agreed that it had died. Your point is well taken. Let's just say this...it might not be dead, but it doesn't get out much. It's on lockdown.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
Jensen could be set and ready to go before the batter got in the box. The batter cannot cause a ball.
This is not correct. Jansen is not allowed to be set until the batter is in the box and ready. The goal is to prevent guys quick pitching. The batter cannot cause a ball - you're correct about that.
You can clearly see in the video in that article this was an ump show doing exactly what I dont like about the rule. Wilson was clearly two feet in the box Jensen wasnt set, he was still moving to come set when the umpire called the ball on Jensen. I've never once seen a pitcher thats rocking back and bring up his glove being considered set before at any level until that video.
Aside from that debacle of horrible umpiring, with the electronic pitch calling pitchers get the next pitch right away. They dont have to wait for signs so they do basically get the whole time its just not enough for either side
Yeah, whether the ump was right or not, I won't say...
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
@Alfonz24 said:
The art of pitching has died for most pitchers. Now it is throw as hard as you can for several innings.
Its not that its died for most pitchers, its just thats what the teams want and thats what gets a player promoted. Theres some better pitchers in the minors than the pros but since they dont light up the radar gun every pitch they will never get a chance in the big leagues and instead we get some of these guys that throw a 100 with a nasty slider and half the time have no idea where the ball is going
A lot of teams wont let a starter face a lineup a 3rd time anyways because thats what their computer says. So they tell their starters they would rather them throw max effort every pitch for 4 or 5 innings than try and go 7 or 8 because theyre going to take them out anyways
...
I agreed that it had died. Your point is well taken. Let's just say this...it might not be dead, but it doesn't get out much. It's on lockdown.
Teams definitely do have it locked in the basement and we are at this weird point now where a number of teams force you to "earn the right" to face a lineup the 3rd time. Tampa has ruined many starters with their nonsense of openers and only going twice through when they made that philosophical change a few years ago as an example.
I hate a lot of the rule changes weve had lately like the guy on 2nd and the shorter basepaths, but since there already done I wouldnt hate the idea of a team losing its DH when the starter comes out if they pitched less than 5 innings. I hate bullpen games, the opener makes no sense given the starter will have to face the top of the lineup at some point and youre just telling him you dont think hes good enough. I'm okay if we start making some adjustments to discourage algorithms running the game and bring some decision making back into managing
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
Have to disagree on Ryan being a max effort guy. Obviously the overwhelming majority of guys that sit mid to high 90s are max effort guys, but there are some generational arms that come along like a Ryan and Verlander where thats not their max. You would see them go max effort occasionally on big pitches and be in triple digits or right about at it. Part of they reason they could throw so hard for 7+ innings is they werent maxing out they just had a gifted arm they developed. Guys like that are obviously extreme outliers that only come around here and there every generation. The overwhelming majority of pitchers cant even approach that
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
Have to disagree on Ryan being a max effort guy. Obviously the overwhelming majority of guys that sit mid to high 90s are max effort guys, but there are some generational arms that come along like a Ryan and Verlander where thats not their max. You would see them go max effort occasionally on big pitches and be in triple digits or right about at it. Part of they reason they could throw so hard for 7+ innings is they werent maxing out they just had a gifted arm they developed. Guys like that are obviously extreme outliers that only come around here and there every generation. The overwhelming majority of pitchers cant even approach that
you must not have seen Ryan pitch live. He was grunting and straining on just about every pitch. He was absolutely a Max effort guy. Really the definition of max effort
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
Have to disagree on Ryan being a max effort guy. Obviously the overwhelming majority of guys that sit mid to high 90s are max effort guys, but there are some generational arms that come along like a Ryan and Verlander where thats not their max. You would see them go max effort occasionally on big pitches and be in triple digits or right about at it. Part of they reason they could throw so hard for 7+ innings is they werent maxing out they just had a gifted arm they developed. Guys like that are obviously extreme outliers that only come around here and there every generation. The overwhelming majority of pitchers cant even approach that
you must not have seen Ryan pitch live. He was grunting and straining on just about every pitch. He was absolutely a Max effort guy. Really the definition of max effort
Just cus you grunt isnt max effort though. Not being max effort doesnt mean you arent putting in effort. While I dont believe his supposed 108 MPH pitch, he did have the ability to get over 100 and any fast ball that was 94-97 instead of 100-103 he wasnt maxing out.
Everyone puts in a lot of effort, but when we're talking about the max effort guys of today were talking about guys that are throwing their hardest possible velocity on every or almost pitch.
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
Have to disagree on Ryan being a max effort guy. Obviously the overwhelming majority of guys that sit mid to high 90s are max effort guys, but there are some generational arms that come along like a Ryan and Verlander where thats not their max. You would see them go max effort occasionally on big pitches and be in triple digits or right about at it. Part of they reason they could throw so hard for 7+ innings is they werent maxing out they just had a gifted arm they developed. Guys like that are obviously extreme outliers that only come around here and there every generation. The overwhelming majority of pitchers cant even approach that
you must not have seen Ryan pitch live. He was grunting and straining on just about every pitch. He was absolutely a Max effort guy. Really the definition of max effort
Just cus you grunt isnt max effort though. Not being max effort doesnt mean you arent putting in effort. While I dont believe his supposed 108 MPH pitch, he did have the ability to get over 100 and any fast ball that was 94-97 instead of 100-103 he wasnt maxing out.
Everyone puts in a lot of effort, but when we're talking about the max effort guys of today were talking about guys that are throwing their hardest possible velocity on every or almost pitch.
Try reading "The Umpire Strikes Back" by former umpire Ron Luciano, you might actually learn something about Nolan Ryan.
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oh come on. these are highly conditioned athletes (or should be) throwing 15-20 pitches an inning, 15 seconds apart for at most 5-6 innings once or twice a week should not be stressing these delicate little butterflies. of course, the league has told the umpiring crews to focus on this. If it is not enforced at the start, you can forget about it. they will never get it back. whenever there are humans umpiring/refereeing games, mistakes will be made. calls are missed every single game. I am perfectly happy with it as the end product is so much better. I remember watching so many playoff games in the past that started at 8 or 8:30 that I stayed up until after midnight to finish. That was a terrible product. This is the very beginning of a much better product.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The game has been about money since 1869. ultimately, that is why the level of play is so high now. Players get paid handsomely to work on becoming better players year-round. It isn't just a recreational activity now and the skill level of players reflects that.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Here’s some MLB data to go along with the good conversation:
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
that is an interesting graph. I wonder what the graph of playoff graph would look like? It seems like the pace of games turns to molasses as soon as the calendar hits October.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree , I think the same graph but set monthly would tell a lot.
It would be good to see the intra year numbers and compare them as they go along.
Is there a graph that shows pitches per nine inning game? With the true outcome rate rising and lack of complete games by pitchers, strikeouts have greatly increased.
Should see a major drop this year.
As I said go try it. Its a monumental misunderstanding of the stress on the body by fans that havent played at such a level.
Hate to break it to you, but playoff games are still going to start at 8 8:30 eastern and go to midnight, fans would revolt at the pitch clock being enforced as it is now and there will bve more commercials
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Now adjust the graph for average length of commercial breaks
Missouri 14 OSU 3
How is it that Feller, Koufax, Gibson etc were able to hold up under such extreme stress of having to throw a baseball 20 times an inning 15 seconds or so apart? they threw just as hard as current pitchers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well, I think the organizational goals were such that you wanted to be able to have your pitchers try to pitch nine innings, not try to strike out every batter. As such, you’re not throwing 100+ “max effort” pitches a game until the early 2000’s and that style leads to being shot after 5-6 innings and puts much more stress on the arm.
I do believe you are right that these guys - Feller, Ryan, Gibson, Koufax - threw just as hard as players do now, just not as often.
For those who saw him, Roy Halliday was a throwback pitcher. He came up as a max effort strikeout pitcher and racked up lots of K’s but then learned to pitch; he was pitching to contact, keeping hitters off balance, eliciting weak contact and regularly pitching deep into ballgames all on 100 efficient pitches - with a reduced but solid K/9. And this will be mainly for the 40 plus crowd but think about how many pitchers pitched at one velocity most of the time but would ‘dial it up’ a few times a game for a strike three. You see that a lot less often now because every pitch is dialed up.
So now, most guys throw that fastball 70 times and 30 off speed pitches and have nothing left after 5 innings. And that is what the organization wants so that’s what their players do…
…but the pitch clock may swing the pendulum back in the other direction.
We’ll see.
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The art of pitching has died for most pitchers. Now it is throw as hard as you can for several innings.
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As @1951WheatiesPremium mentioned, I certainly remember guys dialing it up.
I understand the argument that guys now know that they most likely won't go too deep, and reserving something in the tank is no longer part of their MOs. I get it.
But as @Alfonz24 said, the "art" is gone.
I know that is not what this thread is about, but it is about changes to the game. And so much has been lost. You had guys who were fast pitchers. Slow pitchers. Guys dialed it up. They went deep. It was an event within the event, an extra spectacle within the game, watching the pitcher. Some guys you knew always went deep. Would they pitch a complete game? Some guys didn't hardly ever go very deep, but on days when they really had it, all of a sudden, they would stay in there and sometimes we would see magic. You could watch pitchers striving to get to pinnacles they never had before. I could go on and on, but I know I have made my point.
I think Tanner Houck and maybe Bello too fit into that category.
They are great thru the lineup the first time and then get killed from that point on.
They will seldom get a win that way but will still be a very valuable pitchers as game starters as the Rays have done so well.
They didnt have to. If they chose to work at that pace that was their decision. They also werent told they werent allowed to come set until the batter was ready with 7 seconds to throw from that point on either. They actually didnt throw as hard as today but it was close, they may have had the ability too (velocity measures arent that reliable back than) but pitchers today are expected/told by teams to go max effort every pitch
MLB basically admits they know 15 is to short and that 20 or 25 would be better for everyone and accomplish the same goal by bumping it up to 20 when a runner gets on base. Theres no reason the time should have to change if its the right time to begin with
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Its not that its died for most pitchers, its just thats what the teams want and thats what gets a player promoted. Theres some better pitchers in the minors than the pros but since they dont light up the radar gun every pitch they will never get a chance in the big leagues and instead we get some of these guys that throw a 100 with a nasty slider and half the time have no idea where the ball is going
A lot of teams wont let a starter face a lineup a 3rd time anyways because thats what their computer says. So they tell their starters they would rather them throw max effort every pitch for 4 or 5 innings than try and go 7 or 8 because theyre going to take them out anyways
Missouri 14 OSU 3
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I agreed that it had died. Your point is well taken. Let's just say this...it might not be dead, but it doesn't get out much. It's on lockdown.
The way current pitchers are treated
Yeah, whether the ump was right or not, I won't say...
Koufax retired at 30 after years of pain injections and other treatments. Not sure he's the best example
you are absolutely correct on Koufax. I will add Ryan in his place. He was definitely a max-effort pitcher. for many many years.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Teams definitely do have it locked in the basement and we are at this weird point now where a number of teams force you to "earn the right" to face a lineup the 3rd time. Tampa has ruined many starters with their nonsense of openers and only going twice through when they made that philosophical change a few years ago as an example.
I hate a lot of the rule changes weve had lately like the guy on 2nd and the shorter basepaths, but since there already done I wouldnt hate the idea of a team losing its DH when the starter comes out if they pitched less than 5 innings. I hate bullpen games, the opener makes no sense given the starter will have to face the top of the lineup at some point and youre just telling him you dont think hes good enough. I'm okay if we start making some adjustments to discourage algorithms running the game and bring some decision making back into managing
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Yeah, he's pretty much the poster child for the point you're making.
Have to disagree on Ryan being a max effort guy. Obviously the overwhelming majority of guys that sit mid to high 90s are max effort guys, but there are some generational arms that come along like a Ryan and Verlander where thats not their max. You would see them go max effort occasionally on big pitches and be in triple digits or right about at it. Part of they reason they could throw so hard for 7+ innings is they werent maxing out they just had a gifted arm they developed. Guys like that are obviously extreme outliers that only come around here and there every generation. The overwhelming majority of pitchers cant even approach that
Missouri 14 OSU 3
you must not have seen Ryan pitch live. He was grunting and straining on just about every pitch. He was absolutely a Max effort guy. Really the definition of max effort
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Just cus you grunt isnt max effort though. Not being max effort doesnt mean you arent putting in effort. While I dont believe his supposed 108 MPH pitch, he did have the ability to get over 100 and any fast ball that was 94-97 instead of 100-103 he wasnt maxing out.
Everyone puts in a lot of effort, but when we're talking about the max effort guys of today were talking about guys that are throwing their hardest possible velocity on every or almost pitch.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Try reading "The Umpire Strikes Back" by former umpire Ron Luciano, you might actually learn something about Nolan Ryan.
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Missouri 14 OSU 3