If you push aside all of the contract stuff, money, trade vs staying, and just look at JB as a player, I can see arguments pro and con for supporting him as the number two on the team. I know people can and do say that he did x, y, and z to help the team get to that game 7 vs the Heat. It's just...if I really think about it, I cannot reframe it in my mind. Game 7 proved all of the naysayers right. Yes, Tatum wants him here. And he will be here. And signing him, keeping him for the tear, then trading would have more return than trading him now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but ...game 7 still happened.
If you push aside all of the contract stuff, money, trade vs staying, and just look at JB as a player, I can see arguments pro and con for supporting him as the number two on the team. I know people can and do say that he did x, y, and z to help the team get to that game 7 vs the Heat. It's just...if I really think about it, I cannot reframe it in my mind. Game 7 proved all of the naysayers right. Yes, Tatum wants him here. And he will be here. And signing him, keeping him for the tear, then trading would have more return than trading him now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but ...game 7 still happened.
Is this thought coming from your cousin lol? Yes,G7 did happen and It would be foolish to throw away everything he's accomplished in 7 years here after one bad playoff game.
If you push aside all of the contract stuff, money, trade vs staying, and just look at JB as a player, I can see arguments pro and con for supporting him as the number two on the team. I know people can and do say that he did x, y, and z to help the team get to that game 7 vs the Heat. It's just...if I really think about it, I cannot reframe it in my mind. Game 7 proved all of the naysayers right. Yes, Tatum wants him here. And he will be here. And signing him, keeping him for the tear, then trading would have more return than trading him now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but ...game 7 still happened.
Is this thought coming from your cousin lol? Yes,G7 did happen and It would be foolish to throw away everything he's accomplished in 7 years here after one bad playoff game.
Lol, no. It's just me rambling. Remember, after g7 you yourself said that his performance (I'd have to find it, I'm paraphrasing) made you jump on the "get rid of Brown train". (Not exactly what you said, I know).
The point of my comment was that game 7 should have been his chance to step up, and he didn't. I think we should keep him, sign him, and see where it goes.
It's just disappointing that it didn't happen. He looked terrible. And the criticisms about turnovers and decision making are not anything new.
My comment was weirdly timed. You and almost everyone else was going after him post game 7. It's more of a comment that should have been stated then.
I think that our future is great and there is no limit with Tatum leading the team. I'm all in. As much as I'd love to make it work with Brown, my bet would be on us trading him when the time comes. So I feel a bit skeptical about the in between time.
If you push aside all of the contract stuff, money, trade vs staying, and just look at JB as a player, I can see arguments pro and con for supporting him as the number two on the team. I know people can and do say that he did x, y, and z to help the team get to that game 7 vs the Heat. It's just...if I really think about it, I cannot reframe it in my mind. Game 7 proved all of the naysayers right. Yes, Tatum wants him here. And he will be here. And signing him, keeping him for the tear, then trading would have more return than trading him now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but ...game 7 still happened.
Is this thought coming from your cousin lol? Yes,G7 did happen and It would be foolish to throw away everything he's accomplished in 7 years here after one bad playoff game.
Lol, no. It's just me rambling. Remember, after g7 you yourself said that his performance (I'd have to find it, I'm paraphrasing) made you jump on the "get rid of Brown train". (Not exactly what you said, I know).
The point of my comment was that game 7 should have been his chance to step up, and he didn't. I think we should keep him, sign him, and see where it goes.
It's just disappointing that it didn't happen. He looked terrible. And the criticisms about turnovers and decision making are not anything new.
My comment was weirdly timed. You and almost everyone else was going after him post game 7. It's more of a comment that should have been stated then.
I think that our future is great and there is no limit with Tatum leading the team. I'm all in. As much as I'd love to make it work with Brown, my bet would be on us trading him when the time comes. So I feel a bit skeptical about the in between time.
It's late.
Thanks for reading!
Gotcha. I was pretty heated w/Brown after G7 but that was until I heard about everything else that happened during the game. Brown has been great as a second scorer who's filled in as the lead scorer numerous times when Tatum was out but in this game he was forced to be something he's not,a facilititor who handles the ball on every play. Miami was able to zone in on him knowing that Tatum wasn't mobile and Brogdon wasn't playing.
I could see a scenario a few years out where he's dealt after given him & Tatum 2-3 more years to get the job done but It just makes zero sense for either side to trade him before this extension is signed.
This tweet could just be the Suns making it known that CP3 is available but I might consider a Chris Paul for Malcolm Brogdon deal if I were the Celtics. CP3 is due to make 30M next season but he'd be the the perfect guy running things late in games. The coaching staff could also put him in bubble wrap whenever some minor ailment pops up like they did with Brogdon and have him sit an extra game here or there. They could start CP#,Smart,Brown,Tatum and Al or Rob.
Phoenix is likely just looking to get off his money and replace him with someone similar but younger. If Paul gets waived I doubt that he'd want to sign here on the cheap when he could likely make much more money elsewhere even at his age.
@olb31 said:
jaylen to the hornets for terry, brandon miller, one other player and a first round pick in 2025. he's good but $295M is just too much.
I saw that and thought it was real for a second lol. I'm not entirely against trading him but that would be a horrible return package. Brad Stevens got a better return for Marcus Smart than that one,he could find a considerably better one if he actually called around.
The only problem is once the team makes that decision to trade him or he asks out,there are so many variables that become involved.
Do they still sign him to a longterm deal but not the SM money?
Do they try trading him with just one year left on his current deal which means less of a return?
Do you just sign him to the SM then wait that one year before you could officially trade him?
Does Jaylen just say trade me here or I won't play anywhere else? (Sort of like what Dame Lillard is doing today with the trade request which he really means just to the Heat)
@olb31 said:
jaylen to the hornets for terry, brandon miller, one other player and a first round pick in 2025. he's good but $295M is just too much.
I saw that and thought it was real for a second lol. I'm not entirely against trading him but that would be a horrible return package. Brad Stevens got a better return for Marcus Smart than that one,he could find a considerably better one if he actually called around.
The only problem is once the team makes that decision to trade him or he asks out,there are so many variables that become involved.
Do they still sign him to a longterm deal but not the SM money?
Do they try trading him with just one year left on his current deal which means less of a return?
Do you just sign him to the SM then wait that one year before you could officially trade him?
Does Jaylen just say trade me here or I won't play anywhere else? (Sort of like what Dame Lillard is doing today with the trade request which he really means just to the Heat)
@olb31 said:
jaylen to the hornets for terry, brandon miller, one other player and a first round pick in 2025. he's good but $295M is just too much.
I saw that and thought it was real for a second lol. I'm not entirely against trading him but that would be a horrible return package. Brad Stevens got a better return for Marcus Smart than that one,he could find a considerably better one if he actually called around.
The only problem is once the team makes that decision to trade him or he asks out,there are so many variables that become involved.
Do they still sign him to a longterm deal but not the SM money?
Do they try trading him with just one year left on his current deal which means less of a return?
Do you just sign him to the SM then wait that one year before you could officially trade him?
Does Jaylen just say trade me here or I won't play anywhere else? (Sort of like what Dame Lillard is doing today with the trade request which he really means just to the Heat)
Wait so it actually didn't happen?lol
No, thankfully. Thats like half of what they could realistically get for him.
The Utah Jazz traded a comparable player,Donovan Mitchell, last offseason to the Cavs and they got back:
Laurie Markkanen, a young player on an All-Star/All-Nba level that is very close to being on Mitchell/Brown's level
Collin Sexton, a starting quality player
Ochai Agbaji, a young high upside player on a rookie contract
3 unprotected 1st round picks
2 1st round pick swaps
You may not know these names but that was a great trade for the Jazz. Its no surprise that it was Danny Ainge making it and the people making the decisions in Boston are Brad Stevens,who worked with Danny for 8yrs, and Danny's son Austin who still works in the C's front office.
i hope they get a great trade. i just think the miller kid will be a good pro and right now he's cheap. then terry is pretty good player. then they could keep grant williams. and maybe the hornets would throw in someone else.
@olb31 said:
i hope they get a great trade. i just think the miller kid will be a good pro and right now he's cheap. then terry is pretty good player. then they could keep grant williams. and maybe the hornets would throw in someone else.
If we give JB up I want Brad to milk that other team for every last asset that they own. I listen to alot of NBA related podcasts from people around the league and most think that Brad killed it in the Marcus Smart trade.
There's a chance that he's not done dealing yet with Brogdon possibly going next, If they could turn his 22M into a player making roughly half that they should be able to re-sign Grant. It also helps that most of the teams that were projected to offer him a large contract are quickly running out of cap space.
What did you think of the additon of Kristaps Porzingis?
@perkdog said:
OK I don't follow it much but saw that 295 million number and thought that was insane for Brown
It is right now but once the NBA signs their next TV deal in roughly 2-3 years there's going to be an influx of cash that should see most salaries start trending higher as time goes on. In 5-7 years those 50-60M salaries will be viewed similar to the 30-40M ones now.
the smart trade was awesome. porzingis is a very good get. if you have read some of my posts, i am not big on smart. hes not a point guard and he cant shoot. so hes just a good sixth man, imo.
@olb31 said:
the smart trade was awesome. porzingis is a very good get. if you have read some of my posts, i am not big on smart. hes not a point guard and he cant shoot. so hes just a good sixth man, imo.
Yet our best season in recent years where the team was two wins away from a FInals win came with Smart as PG. 😉
He's been my favorite C's player for years but this team as it was constructed wasn't good enough to win a ring. That being said he was still their best passer.
I thought that they needed to move off one of the high salaries at guard and it does suck,from my pov, that it ended up being Marcus but maybe it was time. Hopefully this is turns out like the 2004 Sox team that traded Nomar then won the WS.
I would honestly still look to move off Brogdon's 22m too, He was great off the bench last season but there's no guarantee that he'll be healthy again when he's needed most late in the playoffs. They could turn his salary into 2-3 legit role players, I'd focus on longer 3&D wings. Improve their defense & rebounding while turning one great 3pt shooter into a couple really good ones. Bringing in 6-7 Oshae Brissett for the vet minimum was a good start,imo.
ive been a celtic fan since 1974. marcus plays hard, he's just not basketball skilled. below average shooter, couldn't beat a lot of other guards off the dribble. keeping brogdon over smart was a great move. brogdon is highly skilled player, just not as athletic.
paying brown $300 mill is stupid. heck in the playoffs he couldn't make foul shots. him and smart have a lot in common, fantastic athletes, but average basketball skill.
The money is so out of hand, but as @erikthredd has said 50 million will soon be the new 30 million. But still, JB's performance in that last game was atrocious. That was his chance to step up. I've seen the excuses, but regardless of scheme, or whatever, you can't look that bad. But also, it has felt like we need to sign him if we want to maximize his value. His value took a beating. Sign him, let the no trade period expire, hope his value is higher. Or better yet, hope he learns to do what he can't do and we win a title. Either way,....
I can't see us not offering it to him. I think there would be backlash against the team.
As for Smart, I've heard the complaints. I don't want to rehash them. My only real complaint was that I thought we would have been better with him, or someone else, in a more traditional starting PG role. But it seemed to my eyes that he had gotten better, in that way, but didn't embrace it. We really don't have much in the way of other players who start and go all out. No matter what you thought of him, I believe he will be missed.
porzingis is better overall. i think white is better than smart. definitely a better shooter.smart is an emotional leader. but the team belongs to tatum. if brown stays i will be happy. if we trade him and get a decent deal, i'll be happy with that too. i have some really brown auto rookies. so staying with boston would help.
@olb31 said:
porzingis is better overall. i think white is better than smart. definitely a better shooter.smart is an emotional leader. but the team belongs to tatum. if brown stays i will be happy. if we trade him and get a decent deal, i'll be happy with that too. i have some really brown auto rookies. so staying with boston would help.
...
I love Tatum, but what you say is important. The team belongs to him, and Smart is an emotional leader. I'd say he was the emotional leader. I'd love it to be Tatum. If Tatum could do that, and realize that he can get his shot over every player, that'd be great. Lol I think both will happen.
ETA..what I just said about Tatum regarding his shot is a pretty common criticism. He's such an elite scorer. Could even be better. I've read, tied into this criticism, is talk about where he gets the ball often, which is tied into scheme, but also just the fact that catching the ball closer to the basket and putting up a jump shot could be a bigger part of his game. 🤷
@olb31 said:
ive been a celtic fan since 1974. marcus plays hard, he's just not basketball skilled. below average shooter, couldn't beat a lot of other guards off the dribble. keeping brogdon over smart was a great move. brogdon is highly skilled player, just not as athletic.
It doesn't matter how long you've been watching basketball when your take is just wrong.
Both players average 4.6 assist per game in their career.
Malcolm has a UsageRate of 22.3%
Marcus has a UsageRate of 17.6%
If you don't know what this stat means its an estimate of teams plays used by the player while he is on the floor. Meaning Brogdon was the #1 guy in Indy and had the ball in his hands more than Smart has ever had it in Boston.
If you give them equal an UsageRate Marcus would have a much higher assists per game number just because they currently average the same APG as-is.
Marcus is by far the better defender and its not even close. He was the first guard in 26years to win the DPOY at a height of 6-3.
Malcolm is by far the better shooter and its not even close. His 50/40/90 shooting percentage season would be the shooter's equivalent to a DPOY award.
What good is beating a lot of other guards off the dribble when you can't finish at the rim or dish to assist like the other guy can?
Marcus had a higher FG% within 10 feet of the rim than Malcolm. Smart 56%/Brogdon 51%
Marcus had a higher AST% within 10 feet of the rim than Malcolm. Smart 69%/Brogdon 64%
How about we talk about durability? Arguably the most important stat of all,
Malcolm misses on average 24 games a season over his 7 year career.
Marcus misses on average 17 games a season over his 9 year career.
I didn't bother doing the math on playoff games when their total's came too, Smart 108G/Brogdon 43G.
Feel free to show how Malcolm Brogdon is more of a highly skilled player than Marcus Smart. I'm sure I could debunk that claim real quick.
Also lets not forget that it was Brogdon that was originally part of the Porzingis 3 team trade until the Clippers backed out due to Brogdon's injury history, Trading Smart was plan B, trading Brogdon was plan A.
With the new CBA tax penalties taking effect over this offseason and the next,every team is going to start cutting salary and with the addition of Kristaps Porzingis and his new 2yr extension,the odd man out is Malcolm Brogdon and his 22.5M salary.
It could be later today or one year from now but he's definitely on the way out, the team already got snakebit with MB's fatal flaw,injuries,and it came at the worst possible time.
if I were a betting man I'd say its sooner rather than later because freeing up some of his salary would help retain Grant Williams.
Say what you will about Brown and his pending SM deal,I somewhat agree with your stance there, but unless he asks to be traded,he's pretty much sticking around and signing that deal. The team would get their best return for him if he's locked up longterm,that means he signs then they wait one year before he could be traded.
If/when he does sign,i'm not worried in the slightest that his contract becomes a problem down the road. The guy is just 26yrs old, averaged just under 27ppg as the #2 guy and is somewhat durable. Too many Celtics fans have a habit of taking a bad game and turning it into the player is somehow not that good,in a season where said player was voted 2nd team All-NBA. 🤣
Boston would find plenty of offers if they decide to put him on the trade block, even at 50+M. In 4-5yrs the Mid level exception alone will reach about 20M,all salaries are going to start rising as soon as the new NBA TV deal gets renewed.
I agree that Porzingis is a better overall player than Smart,you just turned into a Smart/Brogdon debate saying Brogdon was the better player using your opinion as fact. They're both great players with one having the offensive edge,the other defensive.
Even though Smart was my guy,I have no problem with trading him for KP. That position had way to much money stacked into it and they needed to move someone. I think White was the best overall player,who made the least money so it came down to Smart or Brogdon. Usually offense has more trade value and MB was who the Clippers wanted,they may still want him, but that part of the trade fell through.
The part where I brought up Brogdon is still likely to be traded is probably still going to happen. I'm not hating on the guy,its just reality when they'll have to cut more salary.
The salary cap is 136M
The luxury tax line is 165M
The new Super Tax apron is 182.5M (once they cross line this you're hardcapped which means no Trades/no FAs/no Buyout players for the entirety of that season. There are heavier penalties but most don't go into affect until next offseason)
Their active roster cap is currently 177.3M for 14 players
Which means they're currently about 5.2M under the point of no return line with cap holds left on Grant Williams,Blake Griffin,JD Davison,Mfiondu Kabengele & recently drafted Jordan Walsh.
Davison,Walsh & possibly Kabengele could all be signed to 2-way deals. The first two definitely but most probably not for Kabengele.
Blake is probably not coming back and the Davison & Walsh 2ways would cost roughly just over 3M.
They're now over 180M with Grant as lone the player left with 1 roster spot left.
They still own the taxpayer mid level exception that is 5M and could be used to sign someone but it would put them over the 182.5 tax apron. As would signing someone to the vet minimum which in the new CBA is slightly higher now.
They don't want to lose Grant Williams and there were reports that Boston may be willing to match some RFA offers he may get. There's only one team that still has the cap space to offer him a decent contract,the Spurs,
or a few teams that can offer the full MLE of 12.5M but Brad Stevens would likely match that 12.5 a year when that was what Boston originally offered Grant.
They either match his offer then end up over the tax apron for 2023-24 which means they absolutely need to cut significant salary by next offseason or face repeater penalties OR they just trade Brogdon's 22M as soon as they find a taker where they're able to free up cap space while also taking back a decent rotational player or 1st round pick.
Again I'm not hating on Brogdon here,its just reports from people that cover the team say Brad is still looking to move him in the right deal due to his salary,not his play.
They're also trying to put together a longer athletic team with their offseason moves so far. They drafted a 6-7 defensive stopper, They traded for a 7-3 center with a 7-6 wingspan. Their two free agent signings were a 6-7 wing and a 6-7 3rd/4th string point guard. If they move Brogdon all but two players will be 6-6 or taller.
I like Brogdon. And it seemed like he got hurt then the narrative on him changed.
Here's a guess by me. He rubs people the wrong way. Judging by the way he speaks and his comments after the last loss. I think that he recognized some issues and was vocal about them. Just my guess.
@thisistheshow said:
I like Brogdon. And it seemed like he got hurt then the narrative on him changed.
Here's a guess by me. He rubs people the wrong way. Judging by the way he speaks and his comments after the last loss. I think that he recognized some issues and was vocal about them. Just my guess.
Yeah he spoke his mind. I think Brown could be part of the problem. Probably doesn't like playing in Boston. If they trade Brogdon, I would be still surprised, but if they sign Brown they may have to. If they don't sign Brown He stays.
This probably means that Brogdon is staying. There's really no reason to trade him now unless Wyc wants to lower the tax bill or they get an offer to good to turn down.
Its pretty crazy but they still own all of their future 1st round picks plus eight 2nds in the years 2024 to 2028. If they wanted to go after a superstar in a trade they have plenty of ammo to do so. Not many contenders could say the same.
Brogdon and White at point
Brown and Pritchard at 2
Tatum and Hauser at 3
Williams and Kornet at 5
Porzingis and Horford at 4/5
2022 rookie point guard - JD Davison - he could take a step forward and play some.
2023 2nd round pick - Jordan Walsh
These look like the 12 for 2023-24.
Like to see them pick the Matt Ryan kid back up. Man he can shoot
@olb31 said:
Brogdon and White at point
Brown and Pritchard at 2
Tatum and Hauser at 3
Williams and Kornet at 5
Porzingis and Horford at 4/5
2022 rookie point guard - JD Davison - he could take a step forward and play some.
2023 2nd round pick - Jordan Walsh
These look like the 12 for 2023-24.
Like to see them pick the Matt Ryan kid back up. Man he can shoot
I think Davison & Walsh likely end up on 2-way deals especially for JD if Brogdon isn't going anywhere.
They did sign two players. 6-7 SM/PF Oshae Brissett that could turn into a decent 3&D option and help replace some of Grant's minutes. Here's some of his highlights... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljekZ0V8Fps
The other guy is 6-7 point guard Dalano Banton. He's likely going to be their 4th string PG behind DW/MB/PP and likely the reason that JD spends one more year in Maine. Banton's likely to be an end of the bench guy but his length could come in real handy at times.
Here's some of his highlights... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixST9Kce9pY
Of the two, Brissett's probably going to get more playing time and maybe could turn into a rotational player.
As of right now they have 13 players under contract which leaves roughly 2 roster spots and 3 2-way contracts that they could fill but only have just under 4M to spend before reaching the 2nd tax apron. I'm guessing one more additon at the vet minimum, JD & Walsh to Maine and leaving one spot open until they move someone to clear cap room.
I was wroing on the size of trade exception they got in the Grant trade,it ended up being just over 6M,half of his salary, not 13M. Had he not been a RFA it would have been for his full salary.
Matt Ryan is a FA after playing on a 2-way contract for the Wolves last season.
a guy who isn't even the best player on his own team, a guy who shriveled up like a prune when thrust into the Batman role in game 7, and now he's rewarded with the richest deal in NBA history -- a fully-guaranteed super max w/ a trade kicker that could potentially make it worth even more.
this contract can only be explained by one of two things
either the excessive heat is warping brains, or it's a sign of the apocalypse
@galaxy27 said:
a guy who isn't even the best player on his own team, a guy who shriveled up like a prune when thrust into the Batman role in game 7, and now he's rewarded with the richest deal in NBA history -- a fully-guaranteed super max w/ a trade kicker that could potentially make it worth even more.
this contract can only be explained by one of two things
either the excessive heat is warping brains, or it's a sign of the apocalypse
This is going to be the new norm going forward in the NBA, just like it is with every NFL QB coming up on a new contract who end up signing for crazy money. Just look at Daniel Jones signing for 40M/yr.
Right now the top 5 largest contracts in NBA history are Jaylen Brown,Nikola Jokic,Bradley Beal, Devin Booker & Karl Anthony-Towns. Jayson Tatum's upcoming contract will top them all as will the next guy after him in this same situation.
3-4 years from now the salary cap is expected to raise significantly higher than it is now and we're going to see players signing SM deals starting in the 60-70M/yr range,whereas right now these deals are ending with that salary number.
i have a bunch or rookies of him, let's hope they win the next 3 championships. his injury set him back a little. he will have a strong year coming up.
Boston just sent Malcolm Brogdon,Rob Williams, GS's 2024 1st & BOS's 2029 1st to the Blazers for Jrue Holiday.
I'm not sure that I like this deal. We lose Rob Williams,who is currently healthy and is a beast when he's healthy, and Holiday is 33 w/ a player option next season for 40M. His shooting percentages in the playoffs have been lower than Marcus Smart's %'s for 3yrs now.
It gives them the best starting 5 in basketball and their perimeter defense will be elite but it came at the expense of their rim protection/rebounding.
Soon after that trade was announced Boston signed former Lakers center Wenyen Gabriel. Don't know much about him other than he played in 68 games for the Lakers last year.
Here's some of his highlights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8CqBxEiVQ
he looks like he could be a decent energy big off the bench
Erik Spoelstra is the only head coach that continually manages to prevent the Celtics offense from doing what they game-planned to do. I thought Miami wins at least one game in this series, maybe two, but I was hoping it wouldn't happen until they played in Miami.
Mazzulla needs to get more creative and run plays to free up open looks from three from White, Porzingis, Hauser & Pritchard. Miami took those shots away in G2 and basically let Boston have free roam to the rim. Most head coaches would gladly give up 3's for 2's, add in Miami hitting their threes and that's a loss. Now make your adjustments and go win the next one.
I honestly don't think that would have mattered much, looking at his shot chart he scored a ton of baskets at the rim and missed even more in that range, Brown too.
(click on their names under the Celtics dropdown tab to the right of the shot chart) https://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay/_/gameId/401655100
Miami pretty much gave up the paint while they took away the three and tried making Tatum & Brown beat them going to the rim. They both had high scoring games but literally everyone else other than Jrue had less of an impact on offense than they did in G1.
We're at our best when someone gets into the paint and dishes back out and then they pass it enough to get the defense off their rotation and Miami is so good at preventing that. that's why they have so much success against Boston when they're able to subtly make us do something else. Joe needs to adjust there and I think he will.
Comments
Random thoughts...
If you push aside all of the contract stuff, money, trade vs staying, and just look at JB as a player, I can see arguments pro and con for supporting him as the number two on the team. I know people can and do say that he did x, y, and z to help the team get to that game 7 vs the Heat. It's just...if I really think about it, I cannot reframe it in my mind. Game 7 proved all of the naysayers right. Yes, Tatum wants him here. And he will be here. And signing him, keeping him for the tear, then trading would have more return than trading him now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but ...game 7 still happened.
Is this thought coming from your cousin lol? Yes,G7 did happen and It would be foolish to throw away everything he's accomplished in 7 years here after one bad playoff game.
Eric
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Lol, no. It's just me rambling. Remember, after g7 you yourself said that his performance (I'd have to find it, I'm paraphrasing) made you jump on the "get rid of Brown train". (Not exactly what you said, I know).
The point of my comment was that game 7 should have been his chance to step up, and he didn't. I think we should keep him, sign him, and see where it goes.
It's just disappointing that it didn't happen. He looked terrible. And the criticisms about turnovers and decision making are not anything new.
My comment was weirdly timed. You and almost everyone else was going after him post game 7. It's more of a comment that should have been stated then.
I think that our future is great and there is no limit with Tatum leading the team. I'm all in. As much as I'd love to make it work with Brown, my bet would be on us trading him when the time comes. So I feel a bit skeptical about the in between time.
It's late.
Thanks for reading!
Gotcha. I was pretty heated w/Brown after G7 but that was until I heard about everything else that happened during the game. Brown has been great as a second scorer who's filled in as the lead scorer numerous times when Tatum was out but in this game he was forced to be something he's not,a facilititor who handles the ball on every play. Miami was able to zone in on him knowing that Tatum wasn't mobile and Brogdon wasn't playing.
I could see a scenario a few years out where he's dealt after given him & Tatum 2-3 more years to get the job done but It just makes zero sense for either side to trade him before this extension is signed.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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Draymond HATES everything Boston, I don't even think the love of money could get him on the Celts
This tweet could just be the Suns making it known that CP3 is available but I might consider a Chris Paul for Malcolm Brogdon deal if I were the Celtics. CP3 is due to make 30M next season but he'd be the the perfect guy running things late in games. The coaching staff could also put him in bubble wrap whenever some minor ailment pops up like they did with Brogdon and have him sit an extra game here or there. They could start CP#,Smart,Brown,Tatum and Al or Rob.
Phoenix is likely just looking to get off his money and replace him with someone similar but younger. If Paul gets waived I doubt that he'd want to sign here on the cheap when he could likely make much more money elsewhere even at his age.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37814960/sources-suns-chris-paul-meet-talk-future-franchise
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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jaylen to the hornets for terry, brandon miller, one other player and a first round pick in 2025. he's good but $295M is just too much.
Glad they didn't keep him for that insane number
I saw that and thought it was real for a second lol. I'm not entirely against trading him but that would be a horrible return package. Brad Stevens got a better return for Marcus Smart than that one,he could find a considerably better one if he actually called around.
The only problem is once the team makes that decision to trade him or he asks out,there are so many variables that become involved.
Do they still sign him to a longterm deal but not the SM money?
Do they try trading him with just one year left on his current deal which means less of a return?
Do you just sign him to the SM then wait that one year before you could officially trade him?
Does Jaylen just say trade me here or I won't play anywhere else? (Sort of like what Dame Lillard is doing today with the trade request which he really means just to the Heat)
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Wait so it actually didn't happen?lol
No, thankfully. Thats like half of what they could realistically get for him.
The Utah Jazz traded a comparable player,Donovan Mitchell, last offseason to the Cavs and they got back:
Laurie Markkanen, a young player on an All-Star/All-Nba level that is very close to being on Mitchell/Brown's level
Collin Sexton, a starting quality player
Ochai Agbaji, a young high upside player on a rookie contract
3 unprotected 1st round picks
2 1st round pick swaps
You may not know these names but that was a great trade for the Jazz. Its no surprise that it was Danny Ainge making it and the people making the decisions in Boston are Brad Stevens,who worked with Danny for 8yrs, and Danny's son Austin who still works in the C's front office.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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i hope they get a great trade. i just think the miller kid will be a good pro and right now he's cheap. then terry is pretty good player. then they could keep grant williams. and maybe the hornets would throw in someone else.
OK I don't follow it much but saw that 295 million number and thought that was insane for Brown
If we give JB up I want Brad to milk that other team for every last asset that they own. I listen to alot of NBA related podcasts from people around the league and most think that Brad killed it in the Marcus Smart trade.
There's a chance that he's not done dealing yet with Brogdon possibly going next, If they could turn his 22M into a player making roughly half that they should be able to re-sign Grant. It also helps that most of the teams that were projected to offer him a large contract are quickly running out of cap space.
What did you think of the additon of Kristaps Porzingis?
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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It is right now but once the NBA signs their next TV deal in roughly 2-3 years there's going to be an influx of cash that should see most salaries start trending higher as time goes on. In 5-7 years those 50-60M salaries will be viewed similar to the 30-40M ones now.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
the smart trade was awesome. porzingis is a very good get. if you have read some of my posts, i am not big on smart. hes not a point guard and he cant shoot. so hes just a good sixth man, imo.
Yet our best season in recent years where the team was two wins away from a FInals win came with Smart as PG. 😉
He's been my favorite C's player for years but this team as it was constructed wasn't good enough to win a ring. That being said he was still their best passer.
I thought that they needed to move off one of the high salaries at guard and it does suck,from my pov, that it ended up being Marcus but maybe it was time. Hopefully this is turns out like the 2004 Sox team that traded Nomar then won the WS.
I would honestly still look to move off Brogdon's 22m too, He was great off the bench last season but there's no guarantee that he'll be healthy again when he's needed most late in the playoffs. They could turn his salary into 2-3 legit role players, I'd focus on longer 3&D wings. Improve their defense & rebounding while turning one great 3pt shooter into a couple really good ones. Bringing in 6-7 Oshae Brissett for the vet minimum was a good start,imo.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
ive been a celtic fan since 1974. marcus plays hard, he's just not basketball skilled. below average shooter, couldn't beat a lot of other guards off the dribble. keeping brogdon over smart was a great move. brogdon is highly skilled player, just not as athletic.
paying brown $300 mill is stupid. heck in the playoffs he couldn't make foul shots. him and smart have a lot in common, fantastic athletes, but average basketball skill.
The money is so out of hand, but as @erikthredd has said 50 million will soon be the new 30 million. But still, JB's performance in that last game was atrocious. That was his chance to step up. I've seen the excuses, but regardless of scheme, or whatever, you can't look that bad. But also, it has felt like we need to sign him if we want to maximize his value. His value took a beating. Sign him, let the no trade period expire, hope his value is higher. Or better yet, hope he learns to do what he can't do and we win a title. Either way,....
I can't see us not offering it to him. I think there would be backlash against the team.
As for Smart, I've heard the complaints. I don't want to rehash them. My only real complaint was that I thought we would have been better with him, or someone else, in a more traditional starting PG role. But it seemed to my eyes that he had gotten better, in that way, but didn't embrace it. We really don't have much in the way of other players who start and go all out. No matter what you thought of him, I believe he will be missed.
porzingis is better overall. i think white is better than smart. definitely a better shooter.smart is an emotional leader. but the team belongs to tatum. if brown stays i will be happy. if we trade him and get a decent deal, i'll be happy with that too. i have some really brown auto rookies. so staying with boston would help.
...
I love Tatum, but what you say is important. The team belongs to him, and Smart is an emotional leader. I'd say he was the emotional leader. I'd love it to be Tatum. If Tatum could do that, and realize that he can get his shot over every player, that'd be great. Lol I think both will happen.
ETA..what I just said about Tatum regarding his shot is a pretty common criticism. He's such an elite scorer. Could even be better. I've read, tied into this criticism, is talk about where he gets the ball often, which is tied into scheme, but also just the fact that catching the ball closer to the basket and putting up a jump shot could be a bigger part of his game. 🤷
It doesn't matter how long you've been watching basketball when your take is just wrong.
Both players average 4.6 assist per game in their career.
Malcolm has a UsageRate of 22.3%
Marcus has a UsageRate of 17.6%
If you don't know what this stat means its an estimate of teams plays used by the player while he is on the floor. Meaning Brogdon was the #1 guy in Indy and had the ball in his hands more than Smart has ever had it in Boston.
If you give them equal an UsageRate Marcus would have a much higher assists per game number just because they currently average the same APG as-is.
Marcus is by far the better defender and its not even close. He was the first guard in 26years to win the DPOY at a height of 6-3.
Malcolm is by far the better shooter and its not even close. His 50/40/90 shooting percentage season would be the shooter's equivalent to a DPOY award.
What good is beating a lot of other guards off the dribble when you can't finish at the rim or dish to assist like the other guy can?
Marcus had a higher FG% within 10 feet of the rim than Malcolm. Smart 56%/Brogdon 51%
Marcus had a higher AST% within 10 feet of the rim than Malcolm. Smart 69%/Brogdon 64%
How about we talk about durability? Arguably the most important stat of all,
Malcolm misses on average 24 games a season over his 7 year career.
Marcus misses on average 17 games a season over his 9 year career.
I didn't bother doing the math on playoff games when their total's came too, Smart 108G/Brogdon 43G.
Feel free to show how Malcolm Brogdon is more of a highly skilled player than Marcus Smart. I'm sure I could debunk that claim real quick.
Also lets not forget that it was Brogdon that was originally part of the Porzingis 3 team trade until the Clippers backed out due to Brogdon's injury history, Trading Smart was plan B, trading Brogdon was plan A.
With the new CBA tax penalties taking effect over this offseason and the next,every team is going to start cutting salary and with the addition of Kristaps Porzingis and his new 2yr extension,the odd man out is Malcolm Brogdon and his 22.5M salary.
It could be later today or one year from now but he's definitely on the way out, the team already got snakebit with MB's fatal flaw,injuries,and it came at the worst possible time.
if I were a betting man I'd say its sooner rather than later because freeing up some of his salary would help retain Grant Williams.
Say what you will about Brown and his pending SM deal,I somewhat agree with your stance there, but unless he asks to be traded,he's pretty much sticking around and signing that deal. The team would get their best return for him if he's locked up longterm,that means he signs then they wait one year before he could be traded.
If/when he does sign,i'm not worried in the slightest that his contract becomes a problem down the road. The guy is just 26yrs old, averaged just under 27ppg as the #2 guy and is somewhat durable. Too many Celtics fans have a habit of taking a bad game and turning it into the player is somehow not that good,in a season where said player was voted 2nd team All-NBA. 🤣
Boston would find plenty of offers if they decide to put him on the trade block, even at 50+M. In 4-5yrs the Mid level exception alone will reach about 20M,all salaries are going to start rising as soon as the new NBA TV deal gets renewed.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
erik,
porzingis is better than smart. the trade was a good trade for boston. white and smart are closer in ability than porzingis and horford.
brogdon just won 6th man of the year. sounds like he's a pretty good player. if they trade him i would be a little surprised.
I agree that Porzingis is a better overall player than Smart,you just turned into a Smart/Brogdon debate saying Brogdon was the better player using your opinion as fact. They're both great players with one having the offensive edge,the other defensive.
Even though Smart was my guy,I have no problem with trading him for KP. That position had way to much money stacked into it and they needed to move someone. I think White was the best overall player,who made the least money so it came down to Smart or Brogdon. Usually offense has more trade value and MB was who the Clippers wanted,they may still want him, but that part of the trade fell through.
The part where I brought up Brogdon is still likely to be traded is probably still going to happen. I'm not hating on the guy,its just reality when they'll have to cut more salary.
The salary cap is 136M
The luxury tax line is 165M
The new Super Tax apron is 182.5M (once they cross line this you're hardcapped which means no Trades/no FAs/no Buyout players for the entirety of that season. There are heavier penalties but most don't go into affect until next offseason)
Their active roster cap is currently 177.3M for 14 players
Which means they're currently about 5.2M under the point of no return line with cap holds left on Grant Williams,Blake Griffin,JD Davison,Mfiondu Kabengele & recently drafted Jordan Walsh.
Davison,Walsh & possibly Kabengele could all be signed to 2-way deals. The first two definitely but most probably not for Kabengele.
Blake is probably not coming back and the Davison & Walsh 2ways would cost roughly just over 3M.
They're now over 180M with Grant as lone the player left with 1 roster spot left.
They still own the taxpayer mid level exception that is 5M and could be used to sign someone but it would put them over the 182.5 tax apron. As would signing someone to the vet minimum which in the new CBA is slightly higher now.
They don't want to lose Grant Williams and there were reports that Boston may be willing to match some RFA offers he may get. There's only one team that still has the cap space to offer him a decent contract,the Spurs,
or a few teams that can offer the full MLE of 12.5M but Brad Stevens would likely match that 12.5 a year when that was what Boston originally offered Grant.
They either match his offer then end up over the tax apron for 2023-24 which means they absolutely need to cut significant salary by next offseason or face repeater penalties OR they just trade Brogdon's 22M as soon as they find a taker where they're able to free up cap space while also taking back a decent rotational player or 1st round pick.
Again I'm not hating on Brogdon here,its just reports from people that cover the team say Brad is still looking to move him in the right deal due to his salary,not his play.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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They're also trying to put together a longer athletic team with their offseason moves so far. They drafted a 6-7 defensive stopper, They traded for a 7-3 center with a 7-6 wingspan. Their two free agent signings were a 6-7 wing and a 6-7 3rd/4th string point guard. If they move Brogdon all but two players will be 6-6 or taller.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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I like Brogdon. And it seemed like he got hurt then the narrative on him changed.
Here's a guess by me. He rubs people the wrong way. Judging by the way he speaks and his comments after the last loss. I think that he recognized some issues and was vocal about them. Just my guess.
Yeah he spoke his mind. I think Brown could be part of the problem. Probably doesn't like playing in Boston. If they trade Brogdon, I would be still surprised, but if they sign Brown they may have to. If they don't sign Brown He stays.
Well Grant Williams is gone for three 2nd rounders and a 12-13M Trade exception.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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This probably means that Brogdon is staying. There's really no reason to trade him now unless Wyc wants to lower the tax bill or they get an offer to good to turn down.
Its pretty crazy but they still own all of their future 1st round picks plus eight 2nds in the years 2024 to 2028. If they wanted to go after a superstar in a trade they have plenty of ammo to do so. Not many contenders could say the same.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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Brogdon and White at point
Brown and Pritchard at 2
Tatum and Hauser at 3
Williams and Kornet at 5
Porzingis and Horford at 4/5
2022 rookie point guard - JD Davison - he could take a step forward and play some.
2023 2nd round pick - Jordan Walsh
These look like the 12 for 2023-24.
Like to see them pick the Matt Ryan kid back up. Man he can shoot
I think Davison & Walsh likely end up on 2-way deals especially for JD if Brogdon isn't going anywhere.
They did sign two players. 6-7 SM/PF Oshae Brissett that could turn into a decent 3&D option and help replace some of Grant's minutes. Here's some of his highlights...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljekZ0V8Fps
The other guy is 6-7 point guard Dalano Banton. He's likely going to be their 4th string PG behind DW/MB/PP and likely the reason that JD spends one more year in Maine. Banton's likely to be an end of the bench guy but his length could come in real handy at times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixST9Kce9pY
Here's some of his highlights...
Of the two, Brissett's probably going to get more playing time and maybe could turn into a rotational player.
As of right now they have 13 players under contract which leaves roughly 2 roster spots and 3 2-way contracts that they could fill but only have just under 4M to spend before reaching the 2nd tax apron. I'm guessing one more additon at the vet minimum, JD & Walsh to Maine and leaving one spot open until they move someone to clear cap room.
I was wroing on the size of trade exception they got in the Grant trade,it ended up being just over 6M,half of his salary, not 13M. Had he not been a RFA it would have been for his full salary.
Matt Ryan is a FA after playing on a 2-way contract for the Wolves last season.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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Jaylen Brown just got PAID. No player options but he did get a trade kicker. Lets see if there's another move coming to help shore up their depth.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38067889/jaylen-brown-celtics-agree-record-5-year-304m-supermax-extension
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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The Former Cal. Golden Bear, at the moment he signed his new contract, shouted:
"Eureka, I feel like John Marshal at Sutter's Mill in January, 1847."
$60 million per year to hoop. Not a bad gig. Not bad at all.
Ballers simply gots to get paid!!!!!!
a guy who isn't even the best player on his own team, a guy who shriveled up like a prune when thrust into the Batman role in game 7, and now he's rewarded with the richest deal in NBA history -- a fully-guaranteed super max w/ a trade kicker that could potentially make it worth even more.
this contract can only be explained by one of two things
either the excessive heat is warping brains, or it's a sign of the apocalypse
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
How about all.of the above?
Insanity has reached new levels
This is going to be the new norm going forward in the NBA, just like it is with every NFL QB coming up on a new contract who end up signing for crazy money. Just look at Daniel Jones signing for 40M/yr.
Right now the top 5 largest contracts in NBA history are Jaylen Brown,Nikola Jokic,Bradley Beal, Devin Booker & Karl Anthony-Towns. Jayson Tatum's upcoming contract will top them all as will the next guy after him in this same situation.
3-4 years from now the salary cap is expected to raise significantly higher than it is now and we're going to see players signing SM deals starting in the 60-70M/yr range,whereas right now these deals are ending with that salary number.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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i have a bunch or rookies of him, let's hope they win the next 3 championships. his injury set him back a little. he will have a strong year coming up.
Boston just sent Malcolm Brogdon,Rob Williams, GS's 2024 1st & BOS's 2029 1st to the Blazers for Jrue Holiday.
I'm not sure that I like this deal. We lose Rob Williams,who is currently healthy and is a beast when he's healthy, and Holiday is 33 w/ a player option next season for 40M. His shooting percentages in the playoffs have been lower than Marcus Smart's %'s for 3yrs now.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
sounds like a dumb/desperation move.
It gives them the best starting 5 in basketball and their perimeter defense will be elite but it came at the expense of their rim protection/rebounding.
Soon after that trade was announced Boston signed former Lakers center Wenyen Gabriel. Don't know much about him other than he played in 68 games for the Lakers last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8CqBxEiVQ
Here's some of his highlights.
he looks like he could be a decent energy big off the bench
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
trying to make a splash
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
i root hard for boston but they just play a little too soft. heat are playing tough.
sad night in boston. heat have 3 players out and boston still loses at home. by 10. incredible.
At least the Bruins won.
yeah, i root for them kinda. Not a huge hockey fan. I think that the heat coach is just far superior to the celtics.
Celts got run over, they were never really in it I thought
They will win this series though. That loss could be a good thing and light a fire under their rear ends
Erik Spoelstra is the only head coach that continually manages to prevent the Celtics offense from doing what they game-planned to do. I thought Miami wins at least one game in this series, maybe two, but I was hoping it wouldn't happen until they played in Miami.
Mazzulla needs to get more creative and run plays to free up open looks from three from White, Porzingis, Hauser & Pritchard. Miami took those shots away in G2 and basically let Boston have free roam to the rim. Most head coaches would gladly give up 3's for 2's, add in Miami hitting their threes and that's a loss. Now make your adjustments and go win the next one.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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Should post up Tatum. the guys that guard him are usual 3 -4 inches smaller. He would score about 80 points.
I honestly don't think that would have mattered much, looking at his shot chart he scored a ton of baskets at the rim and missed even more in that range, Brown too.
(click on their names under the Celtics dropdown tab to the right of the shot chart)
https://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay/_/gameId/401655100
Miami pretty much gave up the paint while they took away the three and tried making Tatum & Brown beat them going to the rim. They both had high scoring games but literally everyone else other than Jrue had less of an impact on offense than they did in G1.
We're at our best when someone gets into the paint and dishes back out and then they pass it enough to get the defense off their rotation and Miami is so good at preventing that. that's why they have so much success against Boston when they're able to subtly make us do something else. Joe needs to adjust there and I think he will.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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He had a good mentor,Riley?