NGC just cant do it.
willy
Posts: 338 ✭✭✭✭✭
Am I crazy I just will not look at any coins that are not in a PCGS holder. With 95% of all my coins having a CAC sticker. Some of the coins I need do not have CAC available so I will by without the sticker. I do not play the crack out. resubmission game. I am amazed at how many coins are on the bourse floor are in NGC holders. Why if they don't sell as well and would bring more in a PCGS slab? I question every coin not in a PCGS slab especially high end coins, what is wrong with the coin. I see a lot of old gold in NGC slabs. No matter what I do I cannot bring my self to buy NGC. Well that changed I bought a expensive barber quarter with a CAC sticker and will try to switch it over to PCGS at the CSNS show this week. I cannot wait to see the results.
Comments
You're missing many good coins by being so selective
www.brunkauctions.com
As many have said buy the coin not the holder. Unless the holder is rare then buy the holder not the coin
Martin
Let me be the first to say thanks! It is closed minded collectors like you that leave so many great coins available for the rest of us.
Edited to add; the reason you see so many coins in NGC holders is two fold, first NGC is just as good at grading as any other TPG, including your TPG of choice. And second because many dealers have decided not to keep putting up with the excessively long grading process that has been plaguing PCGS. Collectors can endure the wait, dealers need to turn inventory not have it tied up for forever.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I try to keep the coins i acquire. I look for the coin i desire, the TPG is not my only priority. I have coins graded by most graders and enjoy them all. If I was financial able to just collect PCGS, that would be great, but not possible for me.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Not merely "so selective", but indiscriminately selective. Still, I'm all for collectors collecting in whatever way they please, though hopefully, very well informed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are plenty of really nice coins in ngc plastic. Although I own far more in pcgs, I do have ngc as well. It can be cost prohibitive to send those to cross based on ultimate value. In other words, you lose value by sending them to be intombed in pcgs plastic.
When cac begins grading, will you have the same thought process towards pcgs?
I actually sympathize with your viewpoint. Without casting aspersions, however, the reality is much more nuanced than that. I lost some faith in NGC grading standards in the 2000s when I was collecting mostly bust halves and sliders went up to $300 for common 58 coins. At that time, a number of larger collections came to market and the NGC grades were not to my liking. I swore off NGC for a while. After all, there is a reason that PCGS graded coins generally command higher prices than their NGC counterparts, in my opinion.
However, blanket statements and generalities are generally just flat wrong. I have found many, many NGC coins that are terrific buys, and if you know how to grade, they present terrific value. In addition to the different slab series along with what I view as the associated different grading strictness standards, NGC can be better (more conservative) than PCGS in certain series and for certain coins, in my view. GSA CC dollars are an example, in part since the slabbing style is more attractive to me. Also, for Morgan dollars in general, NGC is pretty much on par with PCGS. For tokens, NGC is also quite good and less expensive than PCGS. Old gold is a specialty, and it is generally expensive, so I don't blame you for wanting a CAC sticker. Personally, I also would want advice from a respected dealer. Truth is, I want that on most any expensive coin purchase. I still have a personal prejudice against NGC graded bust halves, but I have learned to look at the coin.
So, as other have said. it's all about the coin, the price, and your desire to acquire it.
Tom
If you're paying more for a PCGS holder and getting more (maybe) at resale for a PCGS holder, then it's a wash.
After I had gotten well into collecting higher end coins in my later years, I looked across the collection and realized that for whatever reason the overwhelming majority of the population was in PCGS holders.
At some point I decided to enter the graded pieces into a few PCGS Registry Sets and of course the non-PCGS coins could not be added. I am not a Registry competitor, but wanted to show off the coins and, more importantly, I had decided that I would use the Set Composite definition as my definition of a ‘complete’ collection.
Therefore, I sent all of the non-PCGS coins in for crossover with reasonably good results. Now when considering a new coin for purchase, if it is in NGC, I always think of my cost to cross it and the chances of it crossing at a lower grade. So now you known the downside of being kind of ‘OCD’ in the area of consistency across a collection.
I've got coins in PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and Coin World Premier holders. The collector should learn to grade for himself or herself. The coin speaks for itself to the collector who wants their coin in a slab. Further advice is to not fall into the number trap. Grade numbers are not that important.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The TPG services have brought pros and cons to the collecting industry. I personally feel way more pros. As to collecting in only one slab type, it's your money. If it helps with your enjoyment, I see no problem. Hopefully you will have the desired results with your crossover attempt.
I am not a slab collector.... I am a coin collector. It is always the coin, not the slab, not the label, not the number. I have slabs from four TPG's, though most are from PCGS or NGC. That was not by design, but because I liked the coins. Since I am not a dealer, I do not concern myself with the resale values. Cheers, RickO
Though my set is primarily PCGS, some of my BEST WLH coins are in NGC slabs-My 1917-S Obv., 1918, 1923-S, 1927-S and ALL of my 1921 coins....Just to name a few. I never would have been able to finish my Walker Registry set without them. I do not play the crack out game nor drink Kool-Aid. My only plans MAY be a trip to CAC for stickers...
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
You’ve been brainwashed
In my experience, many of those coins are in NGC holders because, either:
1. The coin DNC when submitted to PCGS for crossover, or
2. The dealer(s) who have handled the coin did not believe the coin’s chances for crossing over were worth the expense of trying.
WE do not deal in expensive coins. Pretty much $2500-$4000 coins is our niche. we have only sold a couple hundred coins in the past few years so we have limited experience. We have heard about a bias towards PCGS but no one has mentioned NGC to be a problem. If I were to quantify the difference, PCGS probably sells for a 2-4% premium in our world? Therefore, a coin that sells for $3000 in an NGC holder prob sells for $3120 in an PCGS holder. The differential is too small for us to worry about. In fact, should we ever buy an S.S. Republic double eagle ?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. When we see one TPG service regularly selling for large premiums over the over for similar coins we'll take note. We just aren't seeing much difference in the current market. In other words, we don't notice any difference.
Sometimes I like my coffee so thick you can't see through it. But I never drink my Kool-aid that strong.
I think I'm lucky. I'm not a trader, grader, dealer or investor........I'm just a hobbyist.
BTW: Are you sucking up to our host? 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
When the DE market drops in price we go from "trader" to a hobbyist.
I have saved myself a lot of money on several high end coins that were in NGC slabs that I crossed at the same grade (or higher!) to PCGS.
@willy asks “ am I crazy?”
Maybe. Perhaps just OCD or your absolutely correct.
I’ll keep my opinion to myself as I believe the first commandment of coin collecting is….
Collect what you like and how you like. Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
(I wanted to get in before some self-appointed forum cop rats out this thread for bashing.)
What it boils down to is the coin, not the holder it's in. I've seen spot-on grades, overgrades and undergrades from all of the major TPGs. Also, there's no one right way to collect. I shake my head at the "you aren't collecting the right way" mentality some seem to have. Whether you want all your coins in a certain holder, or don't care if they're in multiple different holders, or no holders at all... at the end of the day collecting is supposed to be about having fun. That's what hobbies are all about.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Yes but how would you respond to those who say.. "Buy the holder not the coin"?
People who think like the OP make it so others can get great deals on other coins.
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POTD material right there!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I'd say they are in need of education or else it's just a matter of time before they get drilled on something, if they haven't already.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Cringy
Smitten with DBLCs.
To answer your question, yes you are. But then we already knew that.
Similar feelings. Too many over inflated coins not in PCGS holders.
I’ve been wondering though…
If I’m at a show and see a coin in a competitor holder will PCGS review on the spot and tell me if it will cross at the same grade?
I’m having a hard time finding the year I want for a $3 gold in a PCGS slab but I’ve found two in competitor holders that I would buy only if they would cross…
And I'm sure there have been collectors that feel the same way about their NGC slabs and are posting about their pride of ownership on the NGC forums, saying they'd rather "fight than switch" the snob appeal they get from their favorite slabs....
For a long time the conventional wisdom was that they grade a bit looser ATS and you'd normally lose at least a point crossing to our host. But again, it goes back to knowing what you're looking at...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I prefer to have my coins in PCGS plastic, but I would still buy an NGC coin if it meets my criteria. It really all depends on where the coin is offered and what the value is, If I knew a coin was fresh to market housed in an NGC holder from an old collection, I wouldn't hesitate. Many great NGC coins have already been crossed to PCGS at some point, so what we see is a lot of the retreads that have cycled through the auction houses for years now, and I would bet that they failed to cross at least once. It happens quite frequently where I'll be researching a coin offered by Legend, Paradime, or DLRC only to find that the coin was in different plastic a few months ago.
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Not something that I would take the chance on
It's up to you in the end. Worst case is you try and cross at the same grade ONLY, then if it doesn't then you can always resell it and keep looking
Me, I'm lazy, I'll wait till I find the coin in the PCGS holder, like ALL of my other coins!
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Maybe if you are a big time dealer or know them really well? But probably not.
On a couple of pretty big coins I've offered to pay the grading fee to cross and agree in advance to a price if it crosses. Neither dealer took me up on it which leads me to believe they had already tried unsuccessfully although I appreciated them not letting me pay $300 for a doomed show walkthrough service. I would still make the offer again if I really liked the coin. Assuming you are looking for a gem or near-gem $3 this might be a strategy worth investigating.
Oh Yeah x2
Sounds like it all boils down to opinion, knowledge and grading skills.
That's the foundation of all TPG's.
I hope to acquire the skills necessary to make those choices for myself.
I know I am on the right path.
I've made mistakes I will not make again that's for sure.
I have already experienced the PCGS with a CAC sticker liquidity and it is very true. I for one would not leave $120 on the table that's for sure.
You wouldn’t leave $120 on the table ? Who are you going to sell to for full price ? Auctions ? You leave buyers fee, bidders figure that in. Dealers ? They’re in business to give you every dollar, NOT. Maybe you’re going to do shows for yourself and pay all the associated fees. Maybe you just like saying “on the table” greed will punish you.
The OP dropped this comment this morning and hasn't replied to this thread since. Why do I get the feeling it was just "chum."
Philippians 4:4-7
I love the "look" of PCGS slabs. But the service is so slow right now that I have to believe people are looking elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't send them anything until turnaround times become reasonable again.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Did you also consider that those dealers may not want to have their inventory tied up in grading at a show rather than have it ready to sell? Did you also offer to compensate those dealers for the lost opportunity to sell those items if they don't cross? Your assumption that it has already been tried may be faulty.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That is certainly possible. Walk through service is usually same or next day though. And one of the coins I had seen in the dealer's inventory for months so i know that wasn't the case for that one at least. And they were both $25k+ coins so less likely that a random person would walk by and make an impulse purchase but your point is taken.
I guess I’m one of the lemmings that has a very strong preference for PCGS/CAC coins. I intensely dislike the white prongs and prefer the clear plastic when enjoying my collection.
Not all of my coins are CAC’d since I don’t think it is critical at a sub $1000 price point. YMMV and that’s ok!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I agree with tis above
But I don't agree with this statement, today's sub $1000 coins are tomorrow's above $1000 coins. Better to have them all with the bean
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Generally Agree.
Just concerning my collecting series, DEs and Early Gold, I am very cautious with NGC coins, even with a sticker. I don’t know how many coins that I have seen with CAC that crossed to PCGS, dropping to the next grade.
I have a few moderate DEs (4 figure coins) that are NGC w/CAC that I’m going to crack and send in some time. Only one of these coins is in a older NGC holder, which I am confident should cross equal. The newer stuff is a more of a toss up but they are nice coins and hopefully should cross.
Even if these do drop a grade, it won’t be a significant hit, assuming they will re-sticker. But if it was a five figure or more NGC coin that I was considering and it was just extraordinary, I would probably get someone a lot more competent than myself to take a second look before buying, With these level coins, odds are it’s really going to be painful experience to feel a grade drop on cross. But even that’s a risk, as sometimes the best laid plans turn to ……..!😳
There is no question that PCGS coins generally perform better than NGC and while I love my coins, everything eventually comes to an end and will be sold by me or my estate. At this point in time, I want my coins to be in the best position for maximum return, thus the reason I ultimately prefer them in PCGS holders. Even if initially purchased as NGCs, I will want to cross them.
I just can’t enter any purchases without at least the intention of making some kind of positive return down the road, albeit maybe small, when alls said and done. Just the way I roll.😉
I personally really, really like NGC. You get consistent quality grading and affordable prices.
There are some coins I won't consider in NGC (moderns) and many that I will (classics).
That said, there are legit reasons that people will submit to NGC...it may be their TPGS of choice, for whatever reason, including but not limited to being closer in location to it and having an established relationsip, it may be quicker to get graded and put out to sale, they have the * designation for certain coins/look, cost may be a factor (I haven't looked recently to see the difference), etc etc etc.
There are many good coins in NGC holders, including some that will upgrade at PCGS and many that will crossover anyway.
In early years, TPGSs (legit ones) had many, in what would be considered these days, undergraded coins in their holders.
So, some folks look for those and then crossover.
The key, imho, is twofold:
1) Collect what you want. If that means only in a certain holder, do it. Just understand not everyone thinks that way
2) Learn to grade, and then trust your grading if you are doing well. Doing so will enable you to make less mistakes when buying coins in holders (holders can hide things). There are many on this forum who can do well grading and are comfortable with buying in different TPGSs' holders.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
NGC has looser standards but from time to time they grade tight enough to cross straight to PCGS. But take this NGC PR70 Innovation Dollar I bought last year (and quickly returned). Seriously, how did they miss this?
http://ProofCollection.Net
@JimTyler
Maybe your thinking of something else.
I am far from greedy. I don't think you got the gist of my post.
I was referring to the post made by jkrk in this thread.
You come on a little strong I think. It's really not necessary.
They are talking about coins valued at $3000 or less and the price differentials. So please scroll up and read it. You may agree or disagree but at the very least you will understand my comment.
I am not a coin dealer so odds are that I won't have the opportunity to leave $120 profit on the table.
If I leave $120 anywhere as far as coins go it will be into the cost of the coin I buy.
Or you are simply misunderstanding his use of "on the table"...
But the question is the cost to unlock that $120, in both time and money. If it costs me $60 in submission fees and 6 months, I haven't unlocked any value.