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20 dollar Liberty head - genuine?

I wonder if this 20 dollar Liberty Head is genuine. I'm a european collector and don't have much experience with US coins. Belongs to a collection that was acquired before 1990. Weight is about correct. Any obvious signs of a counterfeit specimen? Thank you in advance!

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks authentic as far as I can tell

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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks good to me

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Your coin is a "Liberty Head" 20 Dollar Gold Piece. They were minted from 1850-1907, with 1 specimen from 1849.

    Commonly called "Double Eagles", and they have .900 Fine Gold content.

    I see no reason to doubt that your piece is genuine.

    Of course, there are way more collectors that specialize in this series, and they are much more knowledgeable than me.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Welcome
    Sure looks pretty, and real

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As long as it is not the size of a dinner plate, I'd also tend toward believing it is genuine.

    peacockcoins

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 6:53PM

    Here’s an S for comparison

    I agree, it’s real.

    Nice coin

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    HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 said:

    Here’s an S for comparison

    I agree, it’s real.

    Nice coin

    If he thinks his should look like this, he’s going to be scared.😂

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    Thank you very much for all the feedback!

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks bad to me, but can’t be 100% sure without better pics.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Henrik83 said:
    I wonder if this 20 dollar Liberty Head is genuine. I'm a european collector and don't have much experience with US coins. Belongs to a collection that was acquired before 1990. Weight is about correct. Any obvious signs of a counterfeit specimen? Thank you in advance!

    yes it is real

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    Looks bad to me, but can’t be 100% sure without better pics.

    I’m with Andy. It could certainly be the mages, but the surfaces look dead and their texture looks off.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice looking coin!

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My thoughts with my extremely limited knowledge based on the images provided, is that it’s a well struck, made from gold, counterfeit.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks good, but I think it's bad.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,503 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks OK from I can see, I like the finish anyway

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,420 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It also looks bad to me. The details look soft and don't show the sharp and distinct detail as found on genuine gold coins. Also, the denticles don't look fully formed especially on the left side of the reverse. Suggest sending it to PCGS to get it graded and authenticated.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    vplite99vplite99 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Real, nice coin

    Vplite99
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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Count me in the counterfeit camp.

    Tom

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,481 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 12:07PM

    There is something odd about the relief. It just seems to not be quite right. It seems like Ms. Liberty's cheeks should be fuller. I don't have an 1899 double eagle, but I do have am 1896.


    and an 1898-S


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think this might be a thread that we never get an answer :/

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's authentic. Need better images.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At first when I opined, I had compared to a CoinFacts example. The stars were all where they should be in relation to the denticles, but the surfaces did look a bit wonky, which I had chalked up to poor imaging. Upon further review, after seeing some other opinions, Im not confident that this coin is genuine. If its a counterfeit, it's a decent one, but I did a little digging on Facebook and found several other similar counterfeits where the details are in the right place but the surfaces and relief are off. The coin below tested at 18k rather than 22k. @Henrik83, I would see if theres a local precious metals/coin store nearby that can measure the gold content. If it tests at 22k, possibly send it in to Anacs or ICG as it would be less expensive and much faster than PCGS.


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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are 3 more counterfeits. Some are more obvious than others, but as you can see the common tell tale for the poor quality fakes is the wonky rim and denticles.




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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks fake to me. Details aren't quite there.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Funky and weakly stuck dentals on rev at 9:00 O' clock, Looks flat not full, I think I would pass..

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    MartinMartin Posts: 834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Henrik83 when you said weight is about correct. What is about? Also my first thought was the numerals in the date looked too flat. I would pass on it or get it authenticated by a TPG. The forum seems split on the coin. That is not a good sign. These guys are very good. I’d respect their opinions the coin has questions
    Good luck
    Martin

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    silviosisilviosi Posts: 456 ✭✭✭

    The main point with those coins and others of the period, was majority was exported in that time (according with the Mint reports). In order to establish fake an XRF is need. I doubt this coin it is fake. Has all the design factors. I could be right or wrong. For me to find in Europe those coins is not a strange word, I buy many from accumulations there as bullions.

    By photo it is authentic. I put on forensic soft and was ok. Color could be different due to the preservation environment.

    I wait for an XRF test, not manually goldsmith test which it is invasive.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Henrik83 ... Welcome aboard. I am not convinced it is authentic, but also not sure it is not. Recommend you send it for authentication. It could be real gold, but not a U.S. Mint product. Cheers, RickO

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,420 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @Henrik83 ... Welcome aboard. I am not convinced it is authentic, but also not sure it is not. Recommend you send it for authentication. It could be real gold, but not a U.S. Mint product. Cheers, RickO

    It's probably real gold. Most counterfeit US gold coins made since the 1960's are made with gold that meets US Mint standards. The profit came from the numismatic premium these coins commanded in the marketplace.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @Henrik83 ... Welcome aboard. I am not convinced it is authentic, but also not sure it is not. Recommend you send it for authentication. It could be real gold, but not a U.S. Mint product. Cheers, RickO

    Instead, I recommend that you show it to one or two local dealers, who can hopefully give you informed answers, free of charge.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,420 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One thing that I've noticed with most counterfeit US gold coins that I've seen is that they are almost all devoid of any contact marks like the coin that's the subject of this thread. Obviously, there are exceptions to every generalization including this one.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does not look right, specifically "trust" lettering weakness.

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    mark_dakmark_dak Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 7:49AM

    This one may scare me off if it were offered to me. Reverse along left side, while not as sad as the 1904 above not looking right. Also Ms. Liberty's flat look. I'm looking at the cheeks, hairlines and area in front of her eye almost disappears. Could be an unusually weak strike but would have to see it in hand.

    If you have any experts in the area, I like that as a first step to verify if our concerns are legit or if the coin is.

    Welcome and good luck - hope we are wrong.

    Mark

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fake. The hair details, odd luster and strike are virtually identical to other asian fakes of various dates/MMs. Seen this on multiple occasions


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    jkrkjkrk Posts: 966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 10:02AM

    If I came home with an unslabbed MS Liberty Ms jkrk would throw me out.

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    mark_dakmark_dak Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jkrk said:
    If I came home with an unslabbed MS Liberty Ms jkrk would throw me out.

    What would she do if you came home with one housed in a fake TPG slab?

    Mark

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    TrampTramp Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Like others have suggest, get it tested for gold content and seek a local dealer's perspective before sending in to a TPG for authentication.

    If they'll counterfeit a $2.5 piece they'll definitely counterfeit a $20.

    USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
    My current Registry sets:
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The weight is about correct... What does it weigh and is it within tolerance?

    Going down the path of determining a counterfeit with incomplete facts is a dangerous precedent.

    I am not certain better pictures will help but they may help better define some of the odd characteristics.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FWIW, my first impression was struck copy. If it's real gold, it will still be worth gold content which is still over $1900/oz. As others suggest, bring it to a local coin shop just to see if it's real before spending money and time to send it in. If it turns out that your local coin shop thinks it's worth authentication, then I'd send it in but not before having it assessed by someone who does this for a living...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    jkrkjkrk Posts: 966 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mark_dak said:

    @jkrk said:
    If I came home with an unslabbed MS Liberty Ms jkrk would throw me out.

    What would she do if you came home with one housed in a fake TPG slab?

    Mark

    Buying a fake TPG slab? CAC will have the slab shortly thereafter so .... They would notify me? Could I return the coin? If not, Simply the cost of being in the hobby? The MS wouldn't be happy but she understands the odds/game.

    Buying a raw coin knowing I can't grade and cannot differentiate between real from fake?

    Her reaction wouldn't be priceless.

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    mark_dakmark_dak Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tramp said:
    Like others have suggest, get it tested for gold content and seek a local dealer's perspective before sending in to a TPG for authentication.

    If they'll counterfeit a $2.5 piece they'll definitely counterfeit a $20.

    Wow, from the picture that looks like a pretty solid counterfeit job! Love to see closer inspection of the coin... were there any markers that you can see of a counterfeit now that it got body bagged?

    Mark

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    silviosisilviosi Posts: 456 ✭✭✭

    Could be 15 to 20 years ago that first time I was ask bout those coins was from a very respected New York owner of a Auction house. Him had in time 5 coins as this one and knowing I contract for reproductions for the Reserve, Ask me to have a look.

    when I receive the coins I saw at moment are reproductions. I circle in the following photos where to look, and also to made the XRF. Normal coin was 900 gold and rest Cu which give the color of the coin. The reproductions are 700 gold, 150 Si and 150 Cu. (reason for more greenish gold color.

    I have no idea about result of investigations, but I can say that the reproduction Dies derive from original mold of the Dies.

    Look for the designs of the circles and also the letter S.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

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