From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I love the game and not TML. I like the way CM plays. You were wrong ….again.
Do I consider him to be one of the greats? Not yet. He hasn’t proven anything that he can win the BIG game.
We don’t need the media to tell us that he did something spectacular….he hasn’t….yet.
That is right, we don't need the media, pundits, retired high level NHLers, to tell us he has done something spectacular, we have you..............
But you are wrong. McDavid has already done many spectacular things in the NHL.
Curious, you have 33 posts since starting here on the boards in mid-2022, all of them are about hockey, or back and forth patting on the back with Goldenage. Goldenage was banned and then you started posting even more. Any chance you are an ALT for @Goldenage? Welcome back.................
Let the mud slinging begin…..I have no idea that @Goldenage was banned. I didn’t mind his love for Bobby Orr. Just like I don’t mind your love for CM. What I find disturbing is that when someone disagrees with you that you would CREEP their previous posts. I’m sure you’ve done it with other members. Let it go…..
AGAIN, CM is a great player. Hopefully he gets better….
No, do not let the mudslinging begin. This is heading towards the type of discussion that ends up in members being banned. I beg you both to not let that happen. Debate all you like, but I need to step in when debate turns into personal attacks.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@JoeBanzai said:
From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
The loss of defenceman Coffey started a decline in the Oilers goal scoring. Oilers couldn’t afford the bigger salaries. Coupled with a stingy owner.
You will also notice an increase in Lemieux’s offence as he immediately joined the Penguins.
Coffey was not the reason for their successes. They all benefited from each other…..It became easier offensively with him on the blueline.
I would say it’s about the same point total needed. The game in the 80s was different. I’ve posted the main differences in a previous post. I would definitely be comfortable comparing Messier/Anderson vs CM/Draisatl. When I watched the Oilers play (few weeks ago), it was eerily similar…..
@JoeBanzai said:
From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
The loss of defenceman Coffey started a decline in the Oilers goal scoring. Oilers couldn’t afford the bigger salaries. Coupled with a stingy owner.
@JoeBanzai said:
From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
The loss of defenceman Coffey started a decline in the Oilers goal scoring. Oilers couldn’t afford the bigger salaries. Coupled with a stingy owner.
Well, that and all of them turning 30.
Lol, turning 30 today is definitely not the same as then…
A different owner coupled with some player attitude adjustments and I honestly believe they could have went another 5/6 years as champions. They were that great!!!
@JoeBanzai said:
From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
The loss of defenceman Coffey started a decline in the Oilers goal scoring. Oilers couldn’t afford the bigger salaries. Coupled with a stingy owner.
>
This has nothing to do with my comparison.
Well, that and all of them turning 30.
Both players in my example were 21-26 years old.
I don't see any evidence that would point to 150 points today equalling 200 during Gretzky's time.
I realize some of you have a huge man crush on McDavid, but he's nowhere as good as Gretzky and not as good as Lindros and Selanne and about equal with Crosby.
That's just taking one part of the game into consideration......scoring points. Up until this year, getting assists.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Both players in my example were 21-26 years old.
I don't see any evidence that would point to 150 points today equalling 200 during Gretzky's time.
I realize some of you have a huge man crush on McDavid, but he's nowhere as good as Gretzky and not as good as Lindros and Selanne and about equal with Crosby.
That's just taking one part of the game into consideration......scoring points. Up until this year, getting assists.
Stats don't lie. If we don't have stats we have nothing to go on. Lindros, Selanne, Crosby, zero chance they are on par with McDavid, so the stats say. Gretzky is GOAT, no one has questioned that.
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
@spacehayduke said:
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
Here are the numbers AGAIN.
McDavid's first 563 games he scored 841 points or 121 per year.
Crosby's first 550 games he scored 769 points or 113 per year.
Both guys goals to assists ratio virtually the same.
McDavid scored 1 more point every 8 games.
Crosby better all around player more than makes up for 1 point every 8 games.
Crosby, better player.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points, but we're much better goal scorers.
Goals are better than assists.
Lindros was also a physical player.
The best of the bunch as a hockey player.
Not........even........close.
McDavid has a chance to surpass them all if he stays healthy and keeps producing, especially at this year's rate.
IF!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@spacehayduke said:
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
Here are the numbers AGAIN.
McDavid's first 563 games he scored 841 points or 121 per year.
Crosby's first 550 games he scored 769 points or 113 per year.
Both guys goals to assists ratio virtually the same.
McDavid scored 1 more point every 8 games.
Crosby better all around player more than makes up for 1 point every 8 games.
Crosby, better player.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points, but we're much better goal scorers.
Goals are better than assists.
Lindros was also a physical player.
The best of the bunch as a hockey player.
Not........even........close.
McDavid has a chance to surpass them all if he stays healthy and keeps producing, especially at this year's rate.
IF!
Joe, you seem MUCH more experienced with hockey than myself. I am wondering if there are stats to objectively quantify when you stated that Crosby was a "better all around player" than McDavid? I assume you mean on defense? Also, was there an advantage to Lindros being a more "physical player?"
If we were talking baseball/football, I would have a much better idea. I am kind of lost when it comes to Hockey. I think it would be pretty difficult to overcome Gretzkys offensive output for his first decade or so.
Stats don't lie. You can see the full article I show below in the link.
Also, McDavid is going to win his 3rd Hart trophy this year, putting him in elite company, Sakic? 1 Lindros? 1, Crosby? 2, all surpassed. The most valuable player, as voted on by the Professional Hockey Writers Association.
That puts McDavid amongst the best 10 players to ever play the game and his probably about half way through this career.
This has nothing to do with whether someone follows, likes, dislikes, roots for Toronto, or whatever, this is what his peers and the pundits say, the numbers are in the stats and the numbers of Hart wins.
You know those signs that say, “IN CASE OF EMERGENCY: BREAK GLASS”? Well, today, we’re really doing it. We’re placing his performance among every season by a forward in NHL history. No. 97’s Earth-scorching, rocket-launching, physics-defying 2022-23 creates a conversation saved only for special occasions.
Most would agree that as a physical specimen of a hockey player, McDavid is surely the greatest talent the world has ever seen. But to do this right, we need to evaluate the Oilers’ captain in his own time and place.
No one has researched or typed more words in the last three years about historical context in hockey than yours truly. While it’s useful to have a peek at the top 20 era adjusted point seasons, simply providing this list and calling it a day isn’t enough for an all-time debate.
It’s a fun and fascinating list.
Adjusted scoring is critical to these conversations. But when talking all-time best, we need to refine things further. Let’s start with some boundaries:
The evolution of the rules, the available talent, and the size of an NHL roster have our search begin post-1967 expansion. With all due respect to Howie Morenz and Cooney Weiland, their best work came right at the time when sliced bread was invented. Literally.
We’re going to toss any seasons where a player didn’t suit up for 70 games. No abbreviated years. No gimmicky projections. We need the forward in the lineup sustaining their play over a complete season. This rules out McDavid’s “Canadian Division” season, any Sidney Crosby partial year, and perhaps hockey’s greatest triumph – Mario Lemieux’s 1992-93 comeback from Hodgkin’s lymphoma.
Playmaking is swell, but to be in this exclusive debate, we need our candidates to have a minimum 60 adjusted goals. Goal scoring matters.
Lastly, context beyond the numbers counts. The player’s situation is important – their personal circumstance, teammates, and off-ice pressures will be considered.
With the above factors in mind, we’re going to start at the top and count down, slotting in McDavid’s explosive 2022-23 along the way."
1. Wayne Gretzky (1983-84)
McDavid’s season will not be labeled greatest ever. That distinction belongs to The Great One. Maybe you’ve heard of him? Skinny guy from Brantford. Has a vineyard. Broke some records a while back. When you have four 200-point seasons and no one else has any, you’re going to have a case for top spot. But why this one among 99’s greatest hits album chalk full of 1980s jams?
Era adjustments batter Gretzky’s point total “down” to 163, fourth most all-time. Context matters here. This was the year the living legend won the Art Ross by 63%(!) over second, a personal best. He won the goal scoring crown by 31, the assist title by 32, and scored 79 points more than runner-up, teammate Paul Coffey. Yikes.
Off the ice, Gretzky in 1983-84 is highly relatable to McDavid today. He was coming off the team’s deepest playoff run, a humbling Finals sweep vs. the Islanders. His team’s style of play was criticized. He had a mantle full of hardware, but no Stanley Cup ring. So, he came back with a vengeance, hitting his highest points-per-game mark, ultimately leading the Oilers to their first of four Cups in five years. Edmonton fans are hoping history repeats itself.
2. Mario Lemieux (1995-96)
The circumstances around Lemieux’s 1995-96 are unprecedented. After missing 177 games in five seasons battling chronic back issues, blood cancer, and 22 radiation treatments, Super Mario was physically ravaged. He sat out the 1994-95 lockout-shortened year to recharge. Lemieux would return at age 30, six years removed from a complete season.
NHL scoring had fallen sharply. 1995-96’s offensive environment matches that of our modern-day hero McDavid’s 2022-23. Lemieux would stay in the lineup for 70 games and would record the greatest adjusted pace of modern times (78/104/183 per 82 games). In an unparalleled career of starts, stops, comebacks, and inextinguishable brilliance, this is Mario’s top entry.
3. Mario Lemieux (1988-89)
Lemieux’s second cameo comes seven years earlier, his last season at full health. He was only 23. By the raw numbers, Mario fell one point short of joining Gretzky’s 200-point club. The most incredible part of this performance is somehow not the on-ice work.
Rather, it’s that Lemieux was robbed of both the Hart (runner-up to Gretzky’s L.A. debut) and the Pearson (his peers voted Steve Yzerman the winner).
How’s this for an MVP case?
He won the scoring title by 31 points.
He set the NHL shorthanded goals record (13) and scored the second-most power play goals in history (31) at the time.
He went +41 on a team outscored that year.
The Penguins had come fifth or sixth in the division the last six years. They jumped to second.
4. Wayne Gretzky (1981-82)
If McDavid is showing us what hockey evolution looks like, this was Gretzky in 1981-82. At age 21, he shattered Phil Esposito’s goals record… by a head-scratching 16 goals.
What holds Gretzky’s year back is the chaos of the NHL’s shifting landscape at the time. After the 1979 WHA merger, the league had gone from six to 21 teams in just a dozen seasons. The product was certainly diluted and would take a few more years to stabilize and benefit from the ongoing influx of European talent.
5. Connor McDavid (2022-23)
We’ve arrived at McDavid’s current masterpiece – the fifth-best season of them all.
The NHL scoring climate has quietly jumped the last few years. In fact, it’s up around 18% since McDavid’s debut in 2015-16. Goals are flying again. As a result, his exceptional season is No. 10 all-time on the post-expansion adjusted points list, not in the top handful that we might expect given his dominance.
So, what makes his season so special? McDavid continues to change hockey.
A physical marvel, his feet, hands, and brain operate in tandem at unparalleled speed. With highlight-reel plays on a nightly basis, he is at least partially responsible for the NHL’s growing and welcome obsession with skill, speed, and ultimately, offence.
A video game cheat code, McDavid has reimagined what’s possible for in-game impact. After a quarter century of teams focused on goal prevention, it’s comebacks and trading scoring chances that are sexy again.
McDavid has turned the power play into an art form. Since tracking began, this year’s Edmonton power play is No. 1 in history (32.6% at the time of this writing). NHL save percentages once averaged in the .870s. This Oilers unit is still better than any team from that era. A miraculous feat.
The NHL has never been better. The influx of European and American talent, combined with advanced training and coaching, makes the current landscape inherently harder to dominate. A contentious point among traditionalists, Gretzky and Lemieux played primarily in a Canadian-controlled sport, only seeing the full effect of the international footprint in their twilight years.
Goal scoring matters among the best handful of all-time performances. Adjusted or unadjusted, this is the first time McDavid scored at above a 44-goal pace in a full season. Adding all-world goal scoring credentials launches his year into the previously untouchable Gretzky/Lemieux stratosphere.
Closing Thoughts
We often talk about generational players. McDavid has had a generational season.
Goals. Assists. Consistency. Full health. It’s been over two decades since a forward — Jaromir Jagr — delivered a complete performance that holds up historically.
With PHWA Award voting ballots due later this month, the Oilers’ captain is a lock to win his third Hart Trophy as league MVP. The only question is whether it will be unanimous. McDavid is also a near certainty to become the first player since Alex Ovechkin (2007-08) to nab the quartet of major awards – Hart, Lindsay, Ross, and Richard Trophies.
There you have it. McDavid’s electric 2022-23 is the fifth-best forward season in NHL history. At 26 years old, Connor’s far from done. Can he possibly find another gear? To be on the safe side, let’s not replace that broken emergency glass just yet. Based on what we’ve witnessed, we may need to do this again next year."
@spacehayduke said: Stats don't lie. You can see the full article I show below in the link.
Also, McDavid is going to win his 3rd Hart trophy this year, putting him in elite company, Sakic? 1 Lindros? 1, Crosby? 2, all surpassed. The most valuable player, as voted on by the Professional Hockey Writers Association.
That puts McDavid amongst the best 10 players to ever play the game and his probably about half way through this career.
This has nothing to do with whether someone follows, likes, dislikes, roots for Toronto, or whatever, this is what his peers and the pundits say, the numbers are in the stats and the numbers of Hart wins.
You know those signs that say, “IN CASE OF EMERGENCY: BREAK GLASS”? Well, today, we’re really doing it. We’re placing his performance among every season by a forward in NHL history. No. 97’s Earth-scorching, rocket-launching, physics-defying 2022-23 creates a conversation saved only for special occasions.
Most would agree that as a physical specimen of a hockey player, McDavid is surely the greatest talent the world has ever seen. But to do this right, we need to evaluate the Oilers’ captain in his own time and place.
No one has researched or typed more words in the last three years about historical context in hockey than yours truly. While it’s useful to have a peek at the top 20 era adjusted point seasons, simply providing this list and calling it a day isn’t enough for an all-time debate.
It’s a fun and fascinating list.
Adjusted scoring is critical to these conversations. But when talking all-time best, we need to refine things further. Let’s start with some boundaries:
The evolution of the rules, the available talent, and the size of an NHL roster have our search begin post-1967 expansion. With all due respect to Howie Morenz and Cooney Weiland, their best work came right at the time when sliced bread was invented. Literally.
We’re going to toss any seasons where a player didn’t suit up for 70 games. No abbreviated years. No gimmicky projections. We need the forward in the lineup sustaining their play over a complete season. This rules out McDavid’s “Canadian Division” season, any Sidney Crosby partial year, and perhaps hockey’s greatest triumph – Mario Lemieux’s 1992-93 comeback from Hodgkin’s lymphoma.
Playmaking is swell, but to be in this exclusive debate, we need our candidates to have a minimum 60 adjusted goals. Goal scoring matters.
Lastly, context beyond the numbers counts. The player’s situation is important – their personal circumstance, teammates, and off-ice pressures will be considered.
With the above factors in mind, we’re going to start at the top and count down, slotting in McDavid’s explosive 2022-23 along the way."
1. Wayne Gretzky (1983-84)
McDavid’s season will not be labeled greatest ever. That distinction belongs to The Great One. Maybe you’ve heard of him? Skinny guy from Brantford. Has a vineyard. Broke some records a while back. When you have four 200-point seasons and no one else has any, you’re going to have a case for top spot. But why this one among 99’s greatest hits album chalk full of 1980s jams?
Era adjustments batter Gretzky’s point total “down” to 163, fourth most all-time. Context matters here. This was the year the living legend won the Art Ross by 63%(!) over second, a personal best. He won the goal scoring crown by 31, the assist title by 32, and scored 79 points more than runner-up, teammate Paul Coffey. Yikes.
Off the ice, Gretzky in 1983-84 is highly relatable to McDavid today. He was coming off the team’s deepest playoff run, a humbling Finals sweep vs. the Islanders. His team’s style of play was criticized. He had a mantle full of hardware, but no Stanley Cup ring. So, he came back with a vengeance, hitting his highest points-per-game mark, ultimately leading the Oilers to their first of four Cups in five years. Edmonton fans are hoping history repeats itself.
2. Mario Lemieux (1995-96)
The circumstances around Lemieux’s 1995-96 are unprecedented. After missing 177 games in five seasons battling chronic back issues, blood cancer, and 22 radiation treatments, Super Mario was physically ravaged. He sat out the 1994-95 lockout-shortened year to recharge. Lemieux would return at age 30, six years removed from a complete season.
NHL scoring had fallen sharply. 1995-96’s offensive environment matches that of our modern-day hero McDavid’s 2022-23. Lemieux would stay in the lineup for 70 games and would record the greatest adjusted pace of modern times (78/104/183 per 82 games). In an unparalleled career of starts, stops, comebacks, and inextinguishable brilliance, this is Mario’s top entry.
3. Mario Lemieux (1988-89)
Lemieux’s second cameo comes seven years earlier, his last season at full health. He was only 23. By the raw numbers, Mario fell one point short of joining Gretzky’s 200-point club. The most incredible part of this performance is somehow not the on-ice work.
Rather, it’s that Lemieux was robbed of both the Hart (runner-up to Gretzky’s L.A. debut) and the Pearson (his peers voted Steve Yzerman the winner).
How’s this for an MVP case?
He won the scoring title by 31 points.
He set the NHL shorthanded goals record (13) and scored the second-most power play goals in history (31) at the time.
He went +41 on a team outscored that year.
The Penguins had come fifth or sixth in the division the last six years. They jumped to second.
4. Wayne Gretzky (1981-82)
If McDavid is showing us what hockey evolution looks like, this was Gretzky in 1981-82. At age 21, he shattered Phil Esposito’s goals record… by a head-scratching 16 goals.
What holds Gretzky’s year back is the chaos of the NHL’s shifting landscape at the time. After the 1979 WHA merger, the league had gone from six to 21 teams in just a dozen seasons. The product was certainly diluted and would take a few more years to stabilize and benefit from the ongoing influx of European talent.
5. Connor McDavid (2022-23)
We’ve arrived at McDavid’s current masterpiece – the fifth-best season of them all.
The NHL scoring climate has quietly jumped the last few years. In fact, it’s up around 18% since McDavid’s debut in 2015-16. Goals are flying again. As a result, his exceptional season is No. 10 all-time on the post-expansion adjusted points list, not in the top handful that we might expect given his dominance.
So, what makes his season so special? McDavid continues to change hockey.
A physical marvel, his feet, hands, and brain operate in tandem at unparalleled speed. With highlight-reel plays on a nightly basis, he is at least partially responsible for the NHL’s growing and welcome obsession with skill, speed, and ultimately, offence.
A video game cheat code, McDavid has reimagined what’s possible for in-game impact. After a quarter century of teams focused on goal prevention, it’s comebacks and trading scoring chances that are sexy again.
McDavid has turned the power play into an art form. Since tracking began, this year’s Edmonton power play is No. 1 in history (32.6% at the time of this writing). NHL save percentages once averaged in the .870s. This Oilers unit is still better than any team from that era. A miraculous feat.
The NHL has never been better. The influx of European and American talent, combined with advanced training and coaching, makes the current landscape inherently harder to dominate. A contentious point among traditionalists, Gretzky and Lemieux played primarily in a Canadian-controlled sport, only seeing the full effect of the international footprint in their twilight years.
Goal scoring matters among the best handful of all-time performances. Adjusted or unadjusted, this is the first time McDavid scored at above a 44-goal pace in a full season. Adding all-world goal scoring credentials launches his year into the previously untouchable Gretzky/Lemieux stratosphere.
Closing Thoughts
We often talk about generational players. McDavid has had a generational season.
Goals. Assists. Consistency. Full health. It’s been over two decades since a forward — Jaromir Jagr — delivered a complete performance that holds up historically.
With PHWA Award voting ballots due later this month, the Oilers’ captain is a lock to win his third Hart Trophy as league MVP. The only question is whether it will be unanimous. McDavid is also a near certainty to become the first player since Alex Ovechkin (2007-08) to nab the quartet of major awards – Hart, Lindsay, Ross, and Richard Trophies.
There you have it. McDavid’s electric 2022-23 is the fifth-best forward season in NHL history. At 26 years old, Connor’s far from done. Can he possibly find another gear? To be on the safe side, let’s not replace that broken emergency glass just yet. Based on what we’ve witnessed, we may need to do this again next year."
One year big deal.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I am just glad that the best player in the past 2 decades is playing for my team, and has a great group of players with him. I have no doubt that the Minnesotans and Torontans would be estatic about having the best player play for them, but bc he does not, the have to downplay it. When was the last time the Minnesota Wilde made it to the West championship round? Oh right, not recently...................... Lotsa first round losses. And only if Minniesota had McDavid it might change things.................................
@spacehayduke said:
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
Here are the numbers AGAIN.
McDavid's first 563 games he scored 841 points or 121 per year.
Crosby's first 550 games he scored 769 points or 113 per year.
Both guys goals to assists ratio virtually the same.
McDavid scored 1 more point every 8 games.
Crosby better all around player more than makes up for 1 point every 8 games.
Crosby, better player.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points, but we're much better goal scorers.
Goals are better than assists.
Lindros was also a physical player.
The best of the bunch as a hockey player.
Not........even........close.
McDavid has a chance to surpass them all if he stays healthy and keeps producing, especially at this year's rate.
IF!
Joe, you seem MUCH more experienced with hockey than myself. I am wondering if there are stats to objectively quantify when you stated that Crosby was a "better all around player" than McDavid? I assume you mean on defense? Also, was there an advantage to Lindros being a more "physical player?"
If we were talking baseball/football, I would have a much better idea. I am kind of lost when it comes to Hockey. I think it would be pretty difficult to overcome Gretzkys offensive output for his first decade or so.
Lindros was an ANIMAL! He probably should have avoided some of the big hits he made. His career was shorter because of a lot of injuries. You would have LOVED him, big, strong, fast, tough and a great scorer. The hype on him was enormous before he was drafted. Look up some YouTube video on him. He was a STUD!
I've been watching and playing hockey since the late 1960's. My favorite sport by far.
These guys just want to look at how many points per game a guy scores and then anoint him "the best". Not me.
Guys that can score are special, no argument there, but when you ignore checking and what is called "the 200' game" your not as good as someone who scores a little less and plays an all around game. I like Crosby's overall game better.
Assists are great, but 2 are usually given for every goal scored and often the pass that got the scoring play started is nothing special. If you are limiting your comparisons to scoring only, goals scored carry more weight than assists. That's why I give Lindros and Selanne more credit. They were about 10% better at scoring goals in relation to total points.
I am also only concerned here with these players first 550 (or so) games. McDavid may surpass the others if he stays healthy and continues to produce like he is doing right now. He really hasn't been a very good goal scorer until the last two years and not the "best" until this season. His career is built on assists, which is great, but his first 4 full seasons he was not a top goal scorer.
McDavid makes some spectacular offensive plays, so did Selanne and Pavel Bure. Paul Karyia comes to mind as a puck wizard too.
The comment that got me started was saying McDavid is better than anyone since Gretzky/Lemieux and that is incorrect.
......so far.
Finally, a word on Kaprizov. I watch every Wild game and saw him set up his center, Ryan Hartman AT LEAST 10 times last year for goals he should have scored, but missed. If Kaprizov ever gets a good goal scorer to pass to, watch out! In the games between the Wild and the Oilers, Kaprizov has been the much better player and I don't need to look and see who has the most points between him and McDavid to know.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@spacehayduke said:
I am just glad that the best player in the past 2 decades is playing for my team, and has a great group of players with him. I have no doubt that the Minnesotans and Torontans would be estatic about having the best player play for them, but bc he does not, the have to downplay it. When was the last time the Minnesota Wilde made it to the West championship round? Oh right, not recently...................... Lotsa first round losses. And only if Minniesota had McDavid it might change things.................................
Another amazing post!
Edmonton has pretty much missed the playoffs or been horrible when getting in up until last year. Either way, we're not talking about team achievements, even though Edmonton has done nothing since getting "the best player of the last 2 decades".
I wouldn't trade Kaprizov for McDavid.
Kirill scored 7 goals in the 6 games the Wild played last year in the post season.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
All I know is if Mcdavid blows an 11 goal lead on pastrnak with 11 games remaining I will not be a happy camper. The lead is now only 5 goals with 4 games left for Boston.
Sure wish Boston would rest that dude for the playoffs. 🫣
@JoeBanzai said:
Just picked this up on eBay. The greatest player in the last 2 decades- Connor McDavid!!
That's correct - and here is another stat, highest career points per game:
Lindros? Kaprisov? Er, nope. McDavid is 4th, the other 2 are nowhere to be seen. Crosby comes in a respectable 8th, 18% less points per game that McDavid.
@spacehayduke said:
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
Here are the numbers AGAIN.
McDavid's first 563 games he scored 841 points or 121 per year.
Crosby's first 550 games he scored 769 points or 113 per year.
Both guys goals to assists ratio virtually the same.
McDavid scored 1 more point every 8 games.
Crosby better all around player more than makes up for 1 point every 8 games.
Crosby, better player.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points, but we're much better goal scorers.
Goals are better than assists.
Lindros was also a physical player.
The best of the bunch as a hockey player.
Not........even........close.
McDavid has a chance to surpass them all if he stays healthy and keeps producing, especially at this year's rate.
IF!
Joe, you seem MUCH more experienced with hockey than myself. I am wondering if there are stats to objectively quantify when you stated that Crosby was a "better all around player" than McDavid? I assume you mean on defense? Also, was there an advantage to Lindros being a more "physical player?"
If we were talking baseball/football, I would have a much better idea. I am kind of lost when it comes to Hockey. I think it would be pretty difficult to overcome Gretzkys offensive output for his first decade or so.
Lindros was an ANIMAL! He probably should have avoided some of the big hits he made. His career was shorter because of a lot of injuries. You would have LOVED him, big, strong, fast, tough and a great scorer. The hype on him was enormous before he was drafted. Look up some YouTube video on him. He was a STUD!
I've been watching and playing hockey since the late 1960's. My favorite sport by far.
These guys just want to look at how many points per game a guy scores and then anoint him "the best". Not me.
Guys that can score are special, no argument there, but when you ignore checking and what is called "the 200' game" your not as good as someone who scores a little less and plays an all around game. I like Crosby's overall game better.
Assists are great, but 2 are usually given for every goal scored and often the pass that got the scoring play started is nothing special. If you are limiting your comparisons to scoring only, goals scored carry more weight than assists. That's why I give Lindros and Selanne more credit. They were about 10% better at scoring goals in relation to total points.
I am also only concerned here with these players first 550 (or so) games. McDavid may surpass the others if he stays healthy and continues to produce like he is doing right now. He really hasn't been a very good goal scorer until the last two years and not the "best" until this season. His career is built on assists, which is great, but his first 4 full seasons he was not a top goal scorer.
McDavid makes some spectacular offensive plays, so did Selanne and Pavel Bure. Paul Karyia comes to mind as a puck wizard too.
The comment that got me started was saying McDavid is better than anyone since Gretzky/Lemieux and that is incorrect.
......so far.
Finally, a word on Kaprizov. I watch every Wild game and saw him set up his center, Ryan Hartman AT LEAST 10 times last year for goals he should have scored, but missed. If Kaprizov ever gets a good goal scorer to pass to, watch out! In the games between the Wild and the Oilers, Kaprizov has been the much better player and I don't need to look and see who has the most points between him and McDavid to know.
Thank you for the detailed response Joe. I am a total newb about hockey. I think I would have loved Lindros. he sounds like my type of player. My only real memory of him is that i thought it was cool that he had a card in the 1990 score traded set, as a baseball player! I do remember Paul Karyia. He played his college hockey very near me at the University of Maine. they had a great season in 1992 I think where they went 42-2-1 I believe and won the national championship. He may have been a senior that year and I caught a few games. I was in high school and was in the pep band. we were invited there on Halloween night to play for the Black Bears. it was a pretty cool experience. unfortunately, I knew very little about hockey so Paul's play was really lost on me. I wish i would have appreciated it more.
Thank you for the detailed response Joe. I am a total newb about hockey. I think I would have loved Lindros. he sounds like my type of player. My only real memory of him is that i thought it was cool that he had a card in the 1990 score traded set, as a baseball player! I do remember Paul Karyia. He played his college hockey very near me at the University of Maine. they had a great season in 1992 I think where they went 42-2-1 I believe and won the national championship. He may have been a senior that year and I caught a few games. I was in high school and was in the pep band. we were invited there on Halloween night to play for the Black Bears. it was a pretty cool experience. unfortunately, I knew very little about hockey so Paul's play was really lost on me. I wish i would have appreciated it more.
I watched LIndros, he was a buffoon, which is why he could not stay on the ice. Don't matter how good one allegedly is, if one is trying to be Marty McSorley but doesn't have the body for it, one is a buffoon like Lindros was, and thus always injured, LOL.
Since this thread is supposed to celebrate the greatest player in the last 27 years, I will put it back on track - this is what McDavid's teammates are saying:
"I can't say enough things about him," linemate Zach Hyman said. "Obviously, just the best player in the world and just continues to push his own envelope and continues to make himself better and make our team better."
This year, Karpisov has 39 goals, and 35 assists, tied for 36th overall this year in the NHL. He has played 66 games, and got slightly over a half of the points of McDavid, his points per game is 74/66 = 1.121, compared to McDavid's 151/80 = 1.888. That is productivity that is 68% less than McDavid.
Kapri's 35 assists is 0.53 per game.
Mcdavid's 87 assists is 1.0875 per game.
Kaprizov is not even in the same conversation as McDavid......
@spacehayduke said:
Responding to Karpizov comments about passing -
This year, Karpisov has 39 goals, and 35 assists, tied for 36th overall this year in the NHL. He has played 66 games, and got slightly over a half of the points of McDavid, his points per game is 74/66 = 1.121, compared to McDavid's 151/80 = 1.888. That is productivity that is 68% less than McDavid.
Kapri's 35 assists is 0.53 per game.
Mcdavid's 87 assists is 1.0875 per game.
Kaprizov is not even in the same conversation as McDavid......
Someone with no knowledge of hockey would agree with you. Look at points per game and no further.
I am glad that some people here are not that simple minded when it comes to player evaluation.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Someone with no knowledge of hockey would agree with you. Look at points per game and no further.
I am glad that some people here are not that simple minded when it comes to player evaluation.
Someone with no knowledge of hockey would agree with you. Look at points per game and no further.
I am glad that some people here are not that simple minded when it comes to player evaluation.
I agree, I have used multiple stats to make a point that McDavid is the best hockey player of the last 2 decades. It is exactly what those with much more knowledge than I have of the game - like NHL coaches and players, for which I have supplied such information here. It does this forum, and you, a dis-service to name calling and denigrating another poster, by claiming I have 'no knowledge of hockey' because I have an opinion that aligns with the best informed people in hockey, and different apparently from your opinion, is also against forum rules. I have Reported you now several times for these types of posts.
Someone with no knowledge of hockey would agree with you. Look at points per game and no further.
I am glad that some people here are not that simple minded when it comes to player evaluation.
I agree, I have used multiple stats to make a point that McDavid is the best hockey player of the last 2 decades. It is exactly what those with much more knowledge than I have of the game - like NHL coaches and players, for which I have supplied such information here. It does this forum, and you, a dis-service to name calling and denigrating another poster, by claiming I have 'no knowledge of hockey' because I have an opinion that aligns with the best informed people in hockey, and different apparently from your opinion, is also against forum rules. I have Reported you now several times for these types of posts.
Best, SH
No you have stuck with points per game from the start because it's all you look at.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Should have said simplistic or one dimensional in the earlier post instead of "simple minded".
My apologies if anyone was offended.
Happy Easter everyone!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
I do remember Paul Karyia. He played his college hockey very near me at the University of Maine. they had a great season in 1992 I think where they went 42-2-1 I believe and won the national championship. He may have been a senior that year and I caught a few games.
Kariya was a freshman and they were 42-1-2. Get yer facts straight! Kariya won the Hobey Baker award (hockey's Heisman) that year. Probably the greatest college hockey team ever. They were STACKED. Forward Jim Montgomery on that team is the current head coach of the Boston Bruins.
Kariya played part of one more season for Maine before joining team Canada and then moving on to the NHL.
I’m going to try one last time before I permanently exit this thread.
Opinions are not facts…..A player can have their greatest year statistically but say that their greatest year was when they won something of significance….debatable…..
@craig44 said:
I do remember Paul Karyia. He played his college hockey very near me at the University of Maine. they had a great season in 1992 I think where they went 42-2-1 I believe and won the national championship. He may have been a senior that year and I caught a few games.
Kariya was a freshman and they were 42-1-2. Get yer facts straight! Kariya won the Hobey Baker award (hockey's Heisman) that year. Probably the greatest college hockey team ever. They were STACKED. Forward Jim Montgomery on that team is the current head coach of the Boston Bruins.
Kariya played part of one more season for Maine before joining team Canada and then moving on to the NHL.
OK, that makes sense. I must have assumed he was an upperclassman because I knew he didnt play for UMaine long after that amazing season. I did not realize he was a freshman!!! holy cow, he must have been a really impressive talent. At the time, I just went to a few games with groups of friends just as something to do. I was really big into baseball/football and knew nothing at all about hockey (I still really dont) That season just sticks in my head because it was a really big local story at the time. I guess I never realized it was more of a national story and they may be considered the greatest college team of all time. You have kind of peaked my interest. I will need to do some more research on the team.
No you have stuck with points per game from the start because it's all you look at.
To be fair, a 68% advantage in P/G is pretty much impossible for a forward to overcome.
It depends on a few things, as I have pointed out.
Points per game only deals with one aspect of the game.
McDavid hasn't been a great goal scorer, with only 2 seasons in the top 5 on goals scored. I haven't seen how many of his assists are primary assists, but until this year he has not been incredible. Very good yes. Not that much above guys like Kucherov.
Do you agree Lindros was a "buffoon"? He was a complete player. He probably played too physical of a game, but he played both ends of the rink.
Hockey players are supposed to play defense and throw a few checks as well, if you ignore that part of the game, you are not the best player.
Even though Gretzky has that enormous point total, I consider Gordy Howe the better player. For one thing he didn't need his own personal goon to protect him.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
It depends on a few things, as I have pointed out.
Points per game only deals with one aspect of the game.
McDavid hasn't been a great goal scorer, with only 2 seasons in the top 5 on goals scored. I haven't seen how many of his assists are primary assists, but until this year he has not been incredible. Very good yes. Not that much above guys like Kucherov.
Do you agree Lindros was a "buffoon"? He was a complete player. He probably played too physical of a game, but he played both ends of the rink.
Hockey players are supposed to play defense and throw a few checks as well, if you ignore that part of the game, you are not the best player.
Even though Gretzky has that enormous point total, I consider Gordy Howe the better player. For one thing he didn't need his own personal goon to protect him.
.
In contrast to your comment above, McDavid has scored more goals than anyone active but Draisaitl during his 8 seasons in the NHL, including his rookie season for which he played about 1/2 of the games. So if McDavid is not a great goal scorer, then there is not one in the NHL for those 8 seasons. And McDavid is the best offensive team player, he has the most assists to go with his most goals during his time. And he does play very good D, see vid below where he can even take it a little too far.
Lindros may have been a 'complete' player, except he was never on the ice enough to make a case, he played big and mean (he was 6'4" and 240 lbs), like a Marty McSorely with better hands when he could get on the ice. But banging around got him hurt to much. So IMO, he did not use his brain very well by banging around. Lemieux was 6'4", 230 lbs, and played smart, so scored more, bufooned around less.........
Very few highly offensive hockey players (i.e. goal scorers and playmakers), are elite defenders that knock heads around on every shift. If this were the case, they don't stay on the ice long bc the big guys eat them for lunch. This is why a guy like Lindros never stayed on the ice.
So then none of the highest point getters by your arguments are the best players to play in the NHL yet all of the experts who know hockey and are paid to analyze the players say so. Hmm................
Gretzky is GOAT, even Gordie Howe says that, and Gretzky says Howe is GOAT, but Gretz has far better stats. Hard to compare generations..............
And btw, the argument that McDavid doesn't hit and check is baseless bc he does:
I think this thread might be better if some people just agreed to disagree and moved on. We're well-beyond the point of hoping to change anyone's mind, so let's leave it at that.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@JoeBanzai said:
It depends on a few things, as I have pointed out.
Points per game only deals with one aspect of the game.
McDavid hasn't been a great goal scorer, with only 2 seasons in the top 5 on goals scored. I haven't seen how many of his assists are primary assists, but until this year he has not been incredible. Very good yes. Not that much above guys like Kucherov.
Do you agree Lindros was a "buffoon"? He was a complete player. He probably played too physical of a game, but he played both ends of the rink.
Hockey players are supposed to play defense and throw a few checks as well, if you ignore that part of the game, you are not the best player.
Even though Gretzky has that enormous point total, I consider Gordy Howe the better player. For one thing he didn't need his own personal goon to protect him.
.
In contrast to your comment above, McDavid has scored more goals than anyone active but Draisaitl during his 8 seasons in the NHL, including his rookie season for which he played about 1/2 of the games. So if McDavid is not a great goal scorer, then there is not one in the NHL for those 8 seasons. And McDavid is the best offensive team player, he has the most assists to go with his most goals during his time. And he does play very good D, see vid below where he can even take it a little too far.
Lindros may have been a 'complete' player, except he was never on the ice enough to make a case, he played big and mean (he was 6'4" and 240 lbs), like a Marty McSorely with better hands when he could get on the ice. But banging around got him hurt to much. So IMO, he did not use his brain very well by banging around. Lemieux was 6'4", 230 lbs, and played smart, so scored more, bufooned around less.........
Very few highly offensive hockey players (i.e. goal scorers and playmakers), are elite defenders that knock heads around on every shift. If this were the case, they don't stay on the ice long bc the big guys eat them for lunch. This is why a guy like Lindros never stayed on the ice.
So then none of the highest point getters by your arguments are the best players to play in the NHL yet all of the experts who know hockey and are paid to analyze the players say so. Hmm................
Gretzky is GOAT, even Gordie Howe says that, and Gretzky says Howe is GOAT, but Gretz has far better stats. Hard to compare generations..............
And btw, the argument that McDavid doesn't hit and check is baseless bc he does:
This will be my final response to anything you post.
In all my years on these message boards, I have never had someone go whining and crying to the moderator about my posts. I have confirmed that with Todd.
I also don't appreciate the private messages yoU have sent me. DO NOT SEND ME ANY MORE OF YOUR HARASSING MESSAGES!
You sir, are exactly what's wrong with these message boards. My advice to you is to grow up and have a little respect for others.
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Comments
does this mean we can speak the name
Bobby Orr again??
He sort of became a bit of a curse word there for awhile...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
From 1982-1986 Gretzky averaged 207 points per season and led the league in points every year.
The closest second place finisher was Bossy in 1982-83 when he scored 70% of what Wayne did (212/147).
McDavid's best year has been this season. His second place scorer, Draisiatl has 83% of McDavid's total (148/123).
In Gretzky's 5 consecutive years of scoring 200 points, 2 of the seasons the #2 scorer had 124 & 126 points, about what Draisiatl has this year. In the other 3 "Gretzky" years the second place player averaged 141 points to Wayne's 212.
Maybe dallas will compare the two eras.
My quick comparison would indicate that 150 points scored now is NOT the same as 200 back then, in fact it's not even very close.
Looking at second place point players over the 5 year "Gretzky" period and looking at the current 5 year period (ignoring 2000-2001), scoring was 11% higher back then, so this year's 150 is more like 167 then, nowhere near 200.
Looks to me 182 is about what a guy would need to score now to be considered the same as 200 in the 1982-1987 era.
No, do not let the mudslinging begin. This is heading towards the type of discussion that ends up in members being banned. I beg you both to not let that happen. Debate all you like, but I need to step in when debate turns into personal attacks.
The loss of defenceman Coffey started a decline in the Oilers goal scoring. Oilers couldn’t afford the bigger salaries. Coupled with a stingy owner.
You will also notice an increase in Lemieux’s offence as he immediately joined the Penguins.
Coffey was not the reason for their successes. They all benefited from each other…..It became easier offensively with him on the blueline.
I would say it’s about the same point total needed. The game in the 80s was different. I’ve posted the main differences in a previous post. I would definitely be comfortable comparing Messier/Anderson vs CM/Draisatl. When I watched the Oilers play (few weeks ago), it was eerily similar…..
Well, that and all of them turning 30.
Lol, turning 30 today is definitely not the same as then…
A different owner coupled with some player attitude adjustments and I honestly believe they could have went another 5/6 years as champions. They were that great!!!
>
This has nothing to do with my comparison.
Both players in my example were 21-26 years old.
I don't see any evidence that would point to 150 points today equalling 200 during Gretzky's time.
I realize some of you have a huge man crush on McDavid, but he's nowhere as good as Gretzky and not as good as Lindros and Selanne and about equal with Crosby.
That's just taking one part of the game into consideration......scoring points. Up until this year, getting assists.
@JoeBanzai said:
Stats don't lie. If we don't have stats we have nothing to go on. Lindros, Selanne, Crosby, zero chance they are on par with McDavid, so the stats say. Gretzky is GOAT, no one has questioned that.
There is no comparison to be made between McDavid and Crosby, again this is a situation where McD has far out performed the other player being debated.
McD has 8 seasons under his belt, he has 6 seasons of those 8 that were 100 points or greater. The season with 97 in 2019-2020 was only 70 games, so it is reasonable to think he would have got 3 points in 12 other games if they were played. In covid shortened season 2020-2021, he had 105 points in 56 games, a pace that is similar to what he is doing this year.
Let's take a look at Crosby's first 8 seasons for direct comparison:
He had 4 mediocre seasons, and 4 seasons from 102-120 points. It does not compare to McDavid even taking the 2 shortened seasons into account. Crosby has played 18 seasons now, and only has another 2 (100, 104) that can be called amongst the best of the season, the rest have been mostly pretty good seasons in the 80s, but a couple were lower. Sorry it is just not what I would call elite.
Stats don't lie even under the argument that stats is not the whole picture...............
Here are the numbers AGAIN.
McDavid's first 563 games he scored 841 points or 121 per year.
Crosby's first 550 games he scored 769 points or 113 per year.
Both guys goals to assists ratio virtually the same.
McDavid scored 1 more point every 8 games.
Crosby better all around player more than makes up for 1 point every 8 games.
Crosby, better player.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points, but we're much better goal scorers.
Goals are better than assists.
Lindros was also a physical player.
The best of the bunch as a hockey player.
Not........even........close.
McDavid has a chance to surpass them all if he stays healthy and keeps producing, especially at this year's rate.
IF!
Joe, you seem MUCH more experienced with hockey than myself. I am wondering if there are stats to objectively quantify when you stated that Crosby was a "better all around player" than McDavid? I assume you mean on defense? Also, was there an advantage to Lindros being a more "physical player?"
If we were talking baseball/football, I would have a much better idea. I am kind of lost when it comes to Hockey. I think it would be pretty difficult to overcome Gretzkys offensive output for his first decade or so.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Stats don't lie. You can see the full article I show below in the link.
Also, McDavid is going to win his 3rd Hart trophy this year, putting him in elite company, Sakic? 1 Lindros? 1, Crosby? 2, all surpassed. The most valuable player, as voted on by the Professional Hockey Writers Association.
≥ = 3:
Gretzky 9
Howe 6
Shore 4
Morenz 3
Ovechkhin 3
Orr 3
Clark 3
Lemieux 3
That puts McDavid amongst the best 10 players to ever play the game and his probably about half way through this career.
This has nothing to do with whether someone follows, likes, dislikes, roots for Toronto, or whatever, this is what his peers and the pundits say, the numbers are in the stats and the numbers of Hart wins.
https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/2022-23s-greatest-performances-where-do-they-rank-in-history-connor-mcdavid
"Connor McDavid has given us a rare opportunity.
You know those signs that say, “IN CASE OF EMERGENCY: BREAK GLASS”? Well, today, we’re really doing it. We’re placing his performance among every season by a forward in NHL history. No. 97’s Earth-scorching, rocket-launching, physics-defying 2022-23 creates a conversation saved only for special occasions.
Most would agree that as a physical specimen of a hockey player, McDavid is surely the greatest talent the world has ever seen. But to do this right, we need to evaluate the Oilers’ captain in his own time and place.
No one has researched or typed more words in the last three years about historical context in hockey than yours truly. While it’s useful to have a peek at the top 20 era adjusted point seasons, simply providing this list and calling it a day isn’t enough for an all-time debate.
It’s a fun and fascinating list.
Adjusted scoring is critical to these conversations. But when talking all-time best, we need to refine things further. Let’s start with some boundaries:
With the above factors in mind, we’re going to start at the top and count down, slotting in McDavid’s explosive 2022-23 along the way."
1. Wayne Gretzky (1983-84)
McDavid’s season will not be labeled greatest ever. That distinction belongs to The Great One. Maybe you’ve heard of him? Skinny guy from Brantford. Has a vineyard. Broke some records a while back. When you have four 200-point seasons and no one else has any, you’re going to have a case for top spot. But why this one among 99’s greatest hits album chalk full of 1980s jams?
Era adjustments batter Gretzky’s point total “down” to 163, fourth most all-time. Context matters here. This was the year the living legend won the Art Ross by 63%(!) over second, a personal best. He won the goal scoring crown by 31, the assist title by 32, and scored 79 points more than runner-up, teammate Paul Coffey. Yikes.
Off the ice, Gretzky in 1983-84 is highly relatable to McDavid today. He was coming off the team’s deepest playoff run, a humbling Finals sweep vs. the Islanders. His team’s style of play was criticized. He had a mantle full of hardware, but no Stanley Cup ring. So, he came back with a vengeance, hitting his highest points-per-game mark, ultimately leading the Oilers to their first of four Cups in five years. Edmonton fans are hoping history repeats itself.
2. Mario Lemieux (1995-96)
The circumstances around Lemieux’s 1995-96 are unprecedented. After missing 177 games in five seasons battling chronic back issues, blood cancer, and 22 radiation treatments, Super Mario was physically ravaged. He sat out the 1994-95 lockout-shortened year to recharge. Lemieux would return at age 30, six years removed from a complete season.
NHL scoring had fallen sharply. 1995-96’s offensive environment matches that of our modern-day hero McDavid’s 2022-23. Lemieux would stay in the lineup for 70 games and would record the greatest adjusted pace of modern times (78/104/183 per 82 games). In an unparalleled career of starts, stops, comebacks, and inextinguishable brilliance, this is Mario’s top entry.
3. Mario Lemieux (1988-89)
Lemieux’s second cameo comes seven years earlier, his last season at full health. He was only 23. By the raw numbers, Mario fell one point short of joining Gretzky’s 200-point club. The most incredible part of this performance is somehow not the on-ice work.
Rather, it’s that Lemieux was robbed of both the Hart (runner-up to Gretzky’s L.A. debut) and the Pearson (his peers voted Steve Yzerman the winner).
How’s this for an MVP case?
4. Wayne Gretzky (1981-82)
If McDavid is showing us what hockey evolution looks like, this was Gretzky in 1981-82. At age 21, he shattered Phil Esposito’s goals record… by a head-scratching 16 goals.
What holds Gretzky’s year back is the chaos of the NHL’s shifting landscape at the time. After the 1979 WHA merger, the league had gone from six to 21 teams in just a dozen seasons. The product was certainly diluted and would take a few more years to stabilize and benefit from the ongoing influx of European talent.
5. Connor McDavid (2022-23)
We’ve arrived at McDavid’s current masterpiece – the fifth-best season of them all.
The NHL scoring climate has quietly jumped the last few years. In fact, it’s up around 18% since McDavid’s debut in 2015-16. Goals are flying again. As a result, his exceptional season is No. 10 all-time on the post-expansion adjusted points list, not in the top handful that we might expect given his dominance.
So, what makes his season so special? McDavid continues to change hockey.
Closing Thoughts
We often talk about generational players. McDavid has had a generational season.
Goals. Assists. Consistency. Full health. It’s been over two decades since a forward — Jaromir Jagr — delivered a complete performance that holds up historically.
With PHWA Award voting ballots due later this month, the Oilers’ captain is a lock to win his third Hart Trophy as league MVP. The only question is whether it will be unanimous. McDavid is also a near certainty to become the first player since Alex Ovechkin (2007-08) to nab the quartet of major awards – Hart, Lindsay, Ross, and Richard Trophies.
There you have it. McDavid’s electric 2022-23 is the fifth-best forward season in NHL history. At 26 years old, Connor’s far from done. Can he possibly find another gear? To be on the safe side, let’s not replace that broken emergency glass just yet. Based on what we’ve witnessed, we may need to do this again next year."
One year big deal.
I am just glad that the best player in the past 2 decades is playing for my team, and has a great group of players with him. I have no doubt that the Minnesotans and Torontans would be estatic about having the best player play for them, but bc he does not, the have to downplay it. When was the last time the Minnesota Wilde made it to the West championship round? Oh right, not recently...................... Lotsa first round losses. And only if Minniesota had McDavid it might change things.................................
Lindros was an ANIMAL! He probably should have avoided some of the big hits he made. His career was shorter because of a lot of injuries. You would have LOVED him, big, strong, fast, tough and a great scorer. The hype on him was enormous before he was drafted. Look up some YouTube video on him. He was a STUD!
I've been watching and playing hockey since the late 1960's. My favorite sport by far.
These guys just want to look at how many points per game a guy scores and then anoint him "the best". Not me.
Guys that can score are special, no argument there, but when you ignore checking and what is called "the 200' game" your not as good as someone who scores a little less and plays an all around game. I like Crosby's overall game better.
Assists are great, but 2 are usually given for every goal scored and often the pass that got the scoring play started is nothing special. If you are limiting your comparisons to scoring only, goals scored carry more weight than assists. That's why I give Lindros and Selanne more credit. They were about 10% better at scoring goals in relation to total points.
I am also only concerned here with these players first 550 (or so) games. McDavid may surpass the others if he stays healthy and continues to produce like he is doing right now. He really hasn't been a very good goal scorer until the last two years and not the "best" until this season. His career is built on assists, which is great, but his first 4 full seasons he was not a top goal scorer.
McDavid makes some spectacular offensive plays, so did Selanne and Pavel Bure. Paul Karyia comes to mind as a puck wizard too.
The comment that got me started was saying McDavid is better than anyone since Gretzky/Lemieux and that is incorrect.
......so far.
Finally, a word on Kaprizov. I watch every Wild game and saw him set up his center, Ryan Hartman AT LEAST 10 times last year for goals he should have scored, but missed. If Kaprizov ever gets a good goal scorer to pass to, watch out! In the games between the Wild and the Oilers, Kaprizov has been the much better player and I don't need to look and see who has the most points between him and McDavid to know.
Another amazing post!
Edmonton has pretty much missed the playoffs or been horrible when getting in up until last year. Either way, we're not talking about team achievements, even though Edmonton has done nothing since getting "the best player of the last 2 decades".
I wouldn't trade Kaprizov for McDavid.
Kirill scored 7 goals in the 6 games the Wild played last year in the post season.
Never mind
All I know is if Mcdavid blows an 11 goal lead on pastrnak with 11 games remaining I will not be a happy camper. The lead is now only 5 goals with 4 games left for Boston.
Sure wish Boston would rest that dude for the playoffs. 🫣
Just picked this up on eBay. The greatest player in the last 2 decades........and Connor McDavid too!!
That's correct - and here is another stat, highest career points per game:
Lindros? Kaprisov? Er, nope. McDavid is 4th, the other 2 are nowhere to be seen. Crosby comes in a respectable 8th, 18% less points per game that McDavid.
Stats don't lie.
Ryan scores! Oil 4-1 end of 2nd period. McD 1 goal 1 assist so far this game.
Make that 5-1 now!!! The playoffs will be great this year!!!
Thank you for the detailed response Joe. I am a total newb about hockey. I think I would have loved Lindros. he sounds like my type of player. My only real memory of him is that i thought it was cool that he had a card in the 1990 score traded set, as a baseball player! I do remember Paul Karyia. He played his college hockey very near me at the University of Maine. they had a great season in 1992 I think where they went 42-2-1 I believe and won the national championship. He may have been a senior that year and I caught a few games. I was in high school and was in the pep band. we were invited there on Halloween night to play for the Black Bears. it was a pretty cool experience. unfortunately, I knew very little about hockey so Paul's play was really lost on me. I wish i would have appreciated it more.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I watched LIndros, he was a buffoon, which is why he could not stay on the ice. Don't matter how good one allegedly is, if one is trying to be Marty McSorley but doesn't have the body for it, one is a buffoon like Lindros was, and thus always injured, LOL.
Since this thread is supposed to celebrate the greatest player in the last 27 years, I will put it back on track - this is what McDavid's teammates are saying:
"I can't say enough things about him," linemate Zach Hyman said. "Obviously, just the best player in the world and just continues to push his own envelope and continues to make himself better and make our team better."
Responding to Karpizov comments about passing -
This year, Karpisov has 39 goals, and 35 assists, tied for 36th overall this year in the NHL. He has played 66 games, and got slightly over a half of the points of McDavid, his points per game is 74/66 = 1.121, compared to McDavid's 151/80 = 1.888. That is productivity that is 68% less than McDavid.
Kapri's 35 assists is 0.53 per game.
Mcdavid's 87 assists is 1.0875 per game.
Kaprizov is not even in the same conversation as McDavid......
Someone with no knowledge of hockey would agree with you. Look at points per game and no further.
I am glad that some people here are not that simple minded when it comes to player evaluation.
. duplicate post
I agree, I have used multiple stats to make a point that McDavid is the best hockey player of the last 2 decades. It is exactly what those with much more knowledge than I have of the game - like NHL coaches and players, for which I have supplied such information here. It does this forum, and you, a dis-service to name calling and denigrating another poster, by claiming I have 'no knowledge of hockey' because I have an opinion that aligns with the best informed people in hockey, and different apparently from your opinion, is also against forum rules. I have Reported you now several times for these types of posts.
Best, SH
No you have stuck with points per game from the start because it's all you look at.
Should have said simplistic or one dimensional in the earlier post instead of "simple minded".
My apologies if anyone was offended.
Happy Easter everyone!
Kariya was a freshman and they were 42-1-2. Get yer facts straight!
Kariya won the Hobey Baker award (hockey's Heisman) that year. Probably the greatest college hockey team ever. They were STACKED. Forward Jim Montgomery on that team is the current head coach of the Boston Bruins.
Kariya played part of one more season for Maine before joining team Canada and then moving on to the NHL.
To be fair, a 68% advantage in P/G is pretty much impossible for a forward to overcome.
I’m going to try one last time before I permanently exit this thread.
Opinions are not facts…..A player can have their greatest year statistically but say that their greatest year was when they won something of significance….debatable…..
Good Luck!!!
OK, that makes sense. I must have assumed he was an upperclassman because I knew he didnt play for UMaine long after that amazing season. I did not realize he was a freshman!!! holy cow, he must have been a really impressive talent. At the time, I just went to a few games with groups of friends just as something to do. I was really big into baseball/football and knew nothing at all about hockey (I still really dont) That season just sticks in my head because it was a really big local story at the time. I guess I never realized it was more of a national story and they may be considered the greatest college team of all time. You have kind of peaked my interest. I will need to do some more research on the team.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It depends on a few things, as I have pointed out.
Points per game only deals with one aspect of the game.
McDavid hasn't been a great goal scorer, with only 2 seasons in the top 5 on goals scored. I haven't seen how many of his assists are primary assists, but until this year he has not been incredible. Very good yes. Not that much above guys like Kucherov.
Do you agree Lindros was a "buffoon"? He was a complete player. He probably played too physical of a game, but he played both ends of the rink.
Hockey players are supposed to play defense and throw a few checks as well, if you ignore that part of the game, you are not the best player.
Even though Gretzky has that enormous point total, I consider Gordy Howe the better player. For one thing he didn't need his own personal goon to protect him.
.
In contrast to your comment above, McDavid has scored more goals than anyone active but Draisaitl during his 8 seasons in the NHL, including his rookie season for which he played about 1/2 of the games. So if McDavid is not a great goal scorer, then there is not one in the NHL for those 8 seasons. And McDavid is the best offensive team player, he has the most assists to go with his most goals during his time. And he does play very good D, see vid below where he can even take it a little too far.
Lindros may have been a 'complete' player, except he was never on the ice enough to make a case, he played big and mean (he was 6'4" and 240 lbs), like a Marty McSorely with better hands when he could get on the ice. But banging around got him hurt to much. So IMO, he did not use his brain very well by banging around. Lemieux was 6'4", 230 lbs, and played smart, so scored more, bufooned around less.........
Very few highly offensive hockey players (i.e. goal scorers and playmakers), are elite defenders that knock heads around on every shift. If this were the case, they don't stay on the ice long bc the big guys eat them for lunch. This is why a guy like Lindros never stayed on the ice.
So then none of the highest point getters by your arguments are the best players to play in the NHL yet all of the experts who know hockey and are paid to analyze the players say so. Hmm................
Gretzky is GOAT, even Gordie Howe says that, and Gretzky says Howe is GOAT, but Gretz has far better stats. Hard to compare generations..............
And btw, the argument that McDavid doesn't hit and check is baseless bc he does:
I think this thread might be better if some people just agreed to disagree and moved on. We're well-beyond the point of hoping to change anyone's mind, so let's leave it at that.
This will be my final response to anything you post.
In all my years on these message boards, I have never had someone go whining and crying to the moderator about my posts. I have confirmed that with Todd.
I also don't appreciate the private messages yoU have sent me. DO NOT SEND ME ANY MORE OF YOUR HARASSING MESSAGES!
You sir, are exactly what's wrong with these message boards. My advice to you is to grow up and have a little respect for others.
Yes. To answer the original question.