McDavid closing in on 150 points for the season is it the new 200?
TheGoonies1985
Posts: 5,465 ✭✭✭✭✭
The game has changed so much since Gretzky scored his 200+ seasons. Can we consider 150 points in this day and age like those 200 point season or not?
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I know it sounds weird but to me it seems to make sens.
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Make sure to ask the guy who works at the penny factory.
Because he makes lots of it.
If anything should probably be worth less given all the changes to make it a more offensive game and how the league is much less physical in general now
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I will leave this one to the hockey experts, but I am certainly interested and following.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As long as McDavid can do it for several more years, maybe.
His first 6 seasons were good, but he didn't score enough goals for all your excitement. This year he has exploded. He's having a great year!
He's still no where near being comparable to Wayne.
Not even close.
It is hard to compare generations as we have discussed on these boards for all sports. Clearly, based on numbers and play, Gretz is GOAT and it will be nigh impossible to say anyone else is in the future. The game has clearly changed, all of the athletes today are clearly better than they were during Gretz's time, we know this because a, training methods are better, and b, nutrition is better, and the athletes are simply better. But that also means the talent in the ice that McD faces on every shift is probably better than the talent that Gretz faced game to game, shift to shift............. But we can't really compare generations bc of this and how individual sports change over time.
Do you want to compare Bradshaw, or Montana, to Brady? Of course not, does that mean Bradshaw's, or Montana's, lower productivity in terms of stat numbers means they were not as good as Brady for each of their generations? We can debate this till the cows come home and will never reach a definitive answer.
So McD is clearly showing he is the best of his generation, and this generation, for many variables, does not score like the Bernie Nichols of previous ones. But no one here will agree that Bernie Nichols, he of 70 goals in l989, is comparable to McDavid. Oh gosh, I hope not at least, LOL......................
0 points so far for McDavid this evening.
I'm not comparing number of points or goals. I ignored McDavid's rookie year.
Gretzky led the league in points his first 8 seasons and 10 of his first 12.
McDavid has led in points in 5 of his first 7 and was second twice.
Gretzky led in assists 14 out of his first 15 seasons.
McDavid led in assists 3 out of his first 7.
It's goal scoring where Wayne DOMINATES McDavid;
Gretzky led the league in goals in 5 of his first 8 years, while McDavid has led only once, this year.
No disrespect towards McDavid, but it's not close.
I hear ya, but different times, different situations, and no one is disagreeing that Gretz is GOAT. I just think that McD is the best of his generation and leave it at that. We can't exchange them into their respective career timelines and situations. Gretz was also the very best pre-NHLer ever, from like age 3 to 18 no one comes close. No question. But keep in mind that Gretz had some WHA experience, playing against high level pros, b4 the Oil and he went into the NHL. So he had better experience as a rookie than did McD at that level and that might have had some impetus to his faster start. So yes McD did not start as fast as Gretz, and how much experience at that level affected things, we will never know. But it might have. But yes Gretz is GOAT and McD will never be accepted as that even if he goes on to be the highest scorer over his career in 3 decades since the Gretzky era.
Again, what is going on now can't really be compared to when Bernie Nichols scored 70 goals and no one who is rational is gong to tell me that Bernie was even close to McD even though he scored more in one season. So comparing that, where Gretz scored 90 in that era, what would Bernie and Wayne score in today's NHL? Bernie? 40 maybe? Wayne? Different eras, we will just never know. Does not detract from what McD is doing NOW in this era.
Best, SH
The conversation goes the other way as well. What would todays best scorer be if they had to play in the more physical league, had two line passes illegal, the bigger crease, goalies not being limited by where they could play the puck in the corner, the training at the time etc. If McD can blow Waynes stats out of the water sure hed be the best, Hes not on pace for that though at this point. If Wayne played in todays era he also would have had the benefit of all the modern training and nutrition and his ability to play at a higher level getting more experience early was just a testament to how good he was, it would have been a standard thing if it was a reflection of the time. Its not like theres a lack of opportunity now either with college, juniors, and so on where the elite get to play there, McD was was playing at the highest levels as a teen as well
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Leaving Wayne aside, as i think most consider him the GOAT. is McDavid commonly considered to be a greater player than Crosby? and why?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
At this moment yes, but they're at different points of their careers. Career wise he could get there but isn't yet
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Do you mean that prime Crosby was better than current McDavid?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I just got out of jail, so I can't answer that.
If, maybe, could happen, if maybe.
For the last 7 seasons, prior to this year, McDavid has been no better than Kucherov or Draisiatl.
Maybe those guys are as good as Gretzky too!
To answer issues on how elite McDavid is, this is from ESPN this am:
"McDavid became the first player in NHL history to have five 10-game point streaks in a season, breaking Wayne Gretzky’s record of four in 1986-87. McDavid also became the fifth player in league history to reach 300 goals and 500 assists before playing 600 career games, following Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Peter Statsny and Bryan Trottier."
No one in the last 2 decades is close..................
Offense has been going up the last couple years with goals a game averages. Edmonton is an offensive powerhouse too. Hes considered the best player in the league and Crosby probably passed to much instead of taking the shot, McD is on pace to be an all time player if he keeps it up
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
McD passed too much early in his career too, it was just this season where he started pushing it for goals, yet he is still top 5 all time to 600 games in scoring. Gretzky came in firing on a hotly talented team - not fun being a goalie against the Oil in the 80's...................
So, by your example above, it proves he's not only NOT as good as Gretzky, he's not as good as Lemieux, Statsny or Trottier either.
Gretzky and Lemieux are VASTLY superior to McDavid, and the other two as well.
McDavid is the best scorer right now, a little better than Draisiatl and Kucherov.
Maybe you better get ready to jump on the Bedard bandwagon.
Crosby, Lindros and Sakic much better players and just as good of scorers before "old man years" are factored in.
You really think "five 10-game point streaks" means ANYTHING?
This guy is good, but try to stick with reality.
Love it when someone puts words in my mouth or over interprets. I would disagree with your saying he is not as good a the other 3. We have already discussed this, it matters what era the player played in, you can't do a good comparison across eras. Anyone who knows hockey can see that McD is as good as ever came onto the ice for offense. Faster, incredible hands, than just about anyone who has played. Every player has their own distinct situation to deal with which will impact their performance obviously. I'd have to go back to film and do a very serious study but I would probably take Gretz and McD over anyone else, period........
LOFL. I did not write that, I reported it as a complete paragraph from an ESPN article (notice the quotes) so get a grip on telling me to 'stick with reality' as I did not specifically comment on that.
Second, "Crosby, Lindros and Sakic much better players". Yup, let's have a laugh now. No way. These guys are 2nd tier below the elites of the game. Sakic, I watched him for hundreds of hours back in the day and he is no McD - his stats are good, but not elite - 120 points was his max. He was consistent over his career, like Mess, very good but no Gretzky, no McD. Crosby, numbers don't show it. Lindros? Hard to say, each of these were very good for their times, but not amongst the most elite 10 or so over history of the game.......... Again, McD has a shot of being amongst the most elite, these others are very much, NOT.
Such a weird stat to track. If you have long streaks, it is much harder to have multiple medium streaks.
Not that I have actually looked at each's 10 game point streak lengths, but if Gretzky's 10 point streaks were the upper teens, then almost impossible to get a 5 streak of at least 10 games for an 84 game season.
Here are the FACTS.
McDavid's first 563 games 300 goals 541 assists approx 121 points per season.
Crosby's first 550 games 274 goals 495 assists. 113 points per season.
Lindros' first 558 games 327 goals 405 assists. 106 points per season.
Selanne's first 564 games 346 goals 383 assists. 105 points per season.
Goals being better than assists, McDavid would rank below both Lindros and Selanne and VERY slightly above Crosby.
McDavid, in his first 6 full seasons before this year has a second place, 2 sixth place, a tenth place and a 26th place finish in goals scored.
This year he is awesome!
Up until now he hasn't been that great, averaging 108 points a year.
Comparison to Gretzky are ridiculous at this point, even with the higher scoring of Wayne's era.
Serious question.
Do you ever bother to look up the facts?
Crosby's virtually the same offensive player, both score at about the same rate and with the same (35%) percentage of goals to assists.
Lindros and Selanne scored a few less points than McDavid but 45% of their points are goals......better than assists.
Not sure who said it, but here's 3 guys every bit as good as McDavid not named Gretzky or Lemieux.
Facts not opinions.
The 80s also had the two line pass, a bigger crease, goons that were there just to hurt you being psychical, different offside rules, the no play zone for goalies wasnt a thing and so on. You are right though about how its very hard to compare the different eras of hockey. Lindros definitely isnt in the conversation. Lemieux talent wise maybe who had injury issues, definitely not Lindros though
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
While 5 10-game point streak are impressive, I don't know why ESPN would try to use that as a comparison to greatness with Gretzky. In an 80 game season, the most 10-game points streaks you can have is three when one of those streaks is 51 games
You can only compare players relative to their competition. Below, in chronological order are some impressive seasons of the top scorer and the second place guy. The first one, the ratio is 1.30 or 30% more points than the next highest total. Everyone can do the math and figure out the years and players. I think there is a pattern.
52-53 86/66 130% Howe/Lindsey
53-54 95/71 134% Howe/Lindsey
70-71 152/139 109% Espo/Orr
72-73 130/104 125% Espo/Clarke
80-81 164/135 121% Gretz/Dionne
81-82 212/147 144% Gretz/Bossy
82-83 196/124 158% Gretz/Statsny
83-84 205/126 163% Gretz/Coffey
84-85 208/135 154% Gretz/Kurri
85-86 215/141 152 Gretz/Lemieux
86-87 183/108 169% Gretz/Kurri
87-88 168/149 113 Lemieux/Gretz
88-89 199/168 118 Lemieux/Gretz
92-93 160/148 108 Lemieux/Lafon
95-96 161/149 108 Lemieux/Jagr
13-14 104/87 1.20 Crosby/Getzlaf
20-21 105/84 125 McDavid/Drais
22-23 144/117 123 McDavid/Drais
McDavid is, indeed, a truly special player. He is the most explosive skater ever, even better than, gasp, Bobby Orr.
It's just there has been one guy, who, despite not being overtly dominant in any particular skill or physically, had elite skills across the board and the ability to see the flow of play in a way that has not been equalled.
Today's players are better athletes than their predecessors, as is the case in all professional sports. If they weren't, you'd still have a few track and field or swimming records still in place from the 50s, 60s or 70s.
I really like the NHL commercial comparing today's game and players to the 1994 EA Sports video game. As Fat Tony would say, "It's funny because it's true."
Signed - a fan who's watched a sh!t-load of hockey since 1971.
I don't think McDavid is at Gretzky level but in my opinion the best player we have seen since the Gretzky/Lemieux years. Crosby is great and his career is stellar but I think McDavid has more talent. McDavid needs to win a cup.
I know you love this guy, but he took 7 years to lead the league in both goals and assists in the same year, by his 4th year Gretzky did it, and then for the next 3 consecutive seasons.
No matter how much speed and talent he has, his first 6 full seasons he has averaged 108 points a year, 11 1/2 points better than the second place guy. Very good consistent and he doesn't miss any games, but until THIS YEAR, he hasn't been that much better than the other top scorers.
If your going to use this years fantastic scoring to claim he's the "next Gretzky", you have to admit he has NOT done it in his first 6 1/2 years.
As I proved in my earlier post, Crosby was virtually the same scorer and Lindros and Selanne were better.
And if you took todays players and they had to come up in the 30s/40s/50s to play in the 50s/60s/70s they would regress. Just as players than would be better. Theres still records that wont be broken in sports and the games have changed a lot
You have to compare players to their generations they are playing against
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Just to be clear, that is the point I led off with: "You can only compare players relative to their competition."
McDavid and Draisaitl should be compared to Messier and Anderson. They play a very similar style. I watched a game versus the VGK and was immediately reminded of that.
McDavid and Draisaitl are more skilled offensively. Messier and Anderson more physical.
Give them a smooth skating and offensive minded rear guard. Throw in a young and strong winger that isn’t afraid to mix it up. Give them that and I think he comes close to 200 points.
The list of leading scorers and 2nd place finishers has been updated for years, players and % over 2nd.
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LOL, Your first post that McD was not better than LIndros and Sakic made me laugh. So I went and looked at their stats. I also went and looked at Kaprizov. So I am not sure why Sakic and Lindros are even being discussed with McDavid. While I don't like comparing eras, nevertheless, let's look at the stat compilation I did:
Lindros played 13 seasons, most of the time he apparently couldn't stay on the ice, he only had 3 seasons with ≥ 71 games played. When he did stay on the ice, you can see that he had one very good season at 115 pts, his G/G, A/G, and P/G for that season compared to the productivity of McDavid. In the other 2 almost full seasons, not so great. His full career productivity in these 3 scoring categories is WAY BELOW MCDAVID on a game per game basis.
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Sakic played for 20 seasons, most of the seasons he was on the ice most of the games. I show here his 2 full seasons. One of them would compare well to McDavid stats 120 pts with good goals and assists. His other full season later in his career, meh.............. So he was up and down and had alot of ho hum seasons, not the consistency and improvement of McDavid over time. His career totals are WAY BELOW MCDAVID on a game per game basis.
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Now let's compare Karpizov and McDavid 1rst 3 years. In terms of goals, Kaprizov has a few more, well done. In terms of assists, Kaprizov gets 0.81/0.6 = 35% less assists game per game than McDavid's 1rst three years. And as you can see, those 1rst 3 seasons were McDavid's worst. Since, then he has progessively improved in G/G, and P/G to the present. McDavid has always been the best at getting assists, year to year. In the Covid shortened season of 2020-2021, he was on his way to a 48 goals, 106 assist, 154 point full season. So that means his total for the last 3 are ALL 123 to > 150 point seasons on a full season basis.
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So things to point out:
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1. Lindros and Sakic are not even on the same hockey planet as McDavid.
2. Kaprizov has had 3 great seasons so far. He has to keep improving if he wants to be on the same page as McDavid. You see those types of players that can score, but have about the same amount of assists as goals. They might get 40 goals a year, maybe 50, but get around 100 points a year, that is very good, not elite. McDavid on average for his career, has gotten 1.8 assists for every goal he has scored, and in his first 3 years, he got 1.9 assists for every goal he scored. Kaprizov has gotten 1.07 assists for every goal he has scored. This level of productivity is very good, but not elite like McDavid is.
3. McDavid has progressively improved in terms of goals, assists, points, and G/G, A/G, and P/G over his career. He is now putting up elite season after elite season after a very good first 3 years.
So Kaprizov, if he wants to be a McDavid he has to do 2 things, keep increasing his productivity every year as McDavid has, and pretty much he has to start passing more and almost double his assist rate while he increases the amount of goals he can score. That is a tall order, and it seems he is what he is and will never be able to match McDavid point for point.
So, this is why the experts are saying McDavid is the best of his generation, like a Gretzky, and these other blokes you tout so much are good but not elite. Kaprizov? Needs more assists and he has to improve from hereon if he wants to be mentioned with the elites like McDavid and Gretzky.
PUCK DON'T LIE, MCDAVID IS THE BEST PLAYING RIGHT NOW AND INTO THE FUTURE
I’m assuming that you know very little about the game. Basing a hockey players value on one aspect is laughable….LOL. The mid 90s was probably the greatest era for hockey in terms of skill and competitiveness. But your statistics will not tell you that…..
McDavid is a great player. Where he lands in terms of history???
I'll retract the Sakic comparison. He wasn't the scorer McDavid is, just a better hockey player.
I didn't bring Kaprizov into it, but he's a better all around player. I wouldn't trade him even up for McDavid.
I compared McDavid to Lindros, Selanne and Crosby in a fair manner over their first 550, or so, games. (You cherry picked seasons to fit your argument.)
The numbers are right there for you to see for those 550 (or so) games.
McDavid SLIGHTLY better than Crosby (just talking about scoring here) and not as good as Selanne and Lindros, because while they had less points they put the puck in the net at a MUCH higher rate. Goals are BETTER than assists!
The statement was made earlier that McDavid is SO MUCH better than anyone since Gretzky and Lemieux and I brought up 3 guys that are as good or better over their first 6 seasons or so. Actually they were ALL better.
If you want to nit pick that McDavid scores one more point over a 10 game stretch and ignore that he has yet to check anyone, that shows you don't understand how to evaluate a complete player. There's more to any sport than just scoring, when it gets close, you have to look at defending.
Lindros was a beast, he did a LOT more than just score points. Anointing ANY player as the "best" on only one aspect of the game is not what I do. You need to evaluate more than that.
McDavid is having (finally) a tremendous year, but prior to this year, he just hasn't scored goals at a high enough rate to be compared to the best of all time. I also gave him credit for not missing any time, but that's because he avoids physical battles. He's a lot like Mike Walton in that manner, floats in the neutral zone while his team mates battle for the puck and takes of flying when they get it to him. Of course he's faster, he's not tired, because he hasn't been working.
It's plain as day.
All you are doing is saying the guy that has the highest points per game is the best.
Not necessarily true.
Er, hello. I assume you think you know alot about the game given your grand statement about me and have read all of my posts. Recall then, I emphasized I don't think you can compare from one era to another well, but was responding with stats to Vike Dude and some of the outlandish things being said here with respect to folks like Sakic and Lindros being on the same page as McDavid. And we were discussing scoring so I brought up scoring stats. If you think things like assist/game stats are meaningless, then perhaps you should reconsider who is the one that does not understand the game LOL. Contributing to your team success is getting assists (as well as goals), and McDavid, far surpasses those two and others being discussed in those categories. Is that the full picture, no, but it is a key part of it. So basically if scoring and assists don't matter, then let's throw out Wayne Gretzky and Michael Jordon shant we?
Hockey players today are better than those in the 90's IMO. They have far better training, far better nutrition, and better coaching from 5 through their NHL career. This all leads to better skills sets top to bottom in the game. No chance that the earlier generations had access to the same level of these types of support that current athletes have. Why do you think track records continue to be broken? To say the 90's was the greatest era in terms of skill is well, not really so, but also simply your opinion. Go with it you want to but then don't turn around and denigrate me for bringing up a stats comparison in response to Vike Dude. But again, Sakic and Lindros? Seriously? Not close to McDavid. Comparing very good players to an elite player and best of his era.
Now a comparison between Gretzky, Lemieux and other elite hockey players, that would be a great conversation. I think Gretz still comes out on top and would have loved to have seen him in this generation with all of the advantages athletes today have that make them better relative to decades ago.
Just to rub it in some more, here is an article up there in Canada by the well respected network tsn. As you can see, the author is claiming McDavid is the best ever. There are reasons for that as noted in the article. So denigrate me for throwing out Sakic and Lindros, but folks who know the game (unlike me according to you), think he is the best:
https://www.tsn.ca/connor-mcdavid-undoubtedly-the-best-player-ever-1.1803876
Raptormaniacs,
Hey don't listen to me, I don't know hockey as you said. But silly me, I keep finding articles that says Connor McDavid is the best or close to it. Here is another one from the Hockey News, another reputed hockey site with many analysts with advanced knowledge of the game:
Connor McDavid is Just So Good
Connor McDavid is re-defining what one single player can accomplish in a hockey game, and dragging the Edmonton Oilers to new heights in the process.
https://thehockeynews.com/news/connor-mcdavid-is-just-so-good
I get that McDavid is not in Minnesota or Toronto, so folks that are not Edmontonians have to down play his greatness, I get that, I really do. But it is, he is, elite, great, possibly best ever, or however you want to define it.
Best, SH
Here is another one:
https://theathletic.com/3321480/2022/05/30/connor-mcdavid-nhl-skating-best/
Talking about his skating ability here as being the best ever seen, so Raptormaniacs, that should appease your concern about me using scoring stats.............
Best, SH
Again, your hockey knowledge seems to be lacking. …
I’ve had the pleasure of watching thousands upon thousands of kids/men play the game. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing CM play in a couple of tournaments as a youth. He has always stood (head and shoulders) above the other players. He has matured into a great hockey player. Where he ends up in the history books is up to him….
The game is entirely different than that of the 90s. Clutch, grab, stick work (dirty), body contact, fighting…. All things that were employed by players to slow down the opposition. All but eliminated in todays game. The appearance of being the best skater ever is …… He is a great skater but there have been some amazing skaters over the past 50 years. When you get shaken by a hit…it makes you think twice about hanging on to the puck.
A SUPERSTAR is something that you don’t need to explain with numbers….
Let us all be happy we have McDvaid and a few others NHL stars otherwise it would be BORING!!! The superstars make the game interesting always have and always will.
If we went by decade, is it consensus who the best players were? would it be something like this?
50s Howe
60s Hull
70s Orr
80s Gretzky
90s lemieux
00s Crosby
10s McDavid
Keep in mind, I am far far from a hockey expert
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If I made such a broad statement it would be Orr in the 70s and Gretzky in the 80s. Even then their dominance would be limited to about 7/8 years.
Again, you seem to denigrate me and ignore the facts in play. LOFL. I love Toronto.
Er, ah, I apologize he does not play for Toronto, he plays for Edmonton, but the stats, the pundits opinions, and the evaluations from the best in the game including Gretz himself, all say McDavid is one of the best of all time. The numbers explain it, and it is backed up by the opinions of the best ever to play and those of the pundits. So I agree with you that you don't need the numbers in this case but they are part of the body of evidence that shows he is amongst a very few greatest to ever play in the NHL.
I will just enjoy watching rare talent. McDavid is one of the greatest in hockey of all time and we can enjoy him right now. Too bad some here apparently can't, bummer for them LOL.
I love the game and not TML. I like the way CM plays. You were wrong ….again.
Do I consider him to be one of the greats? Not yet. He hasn’t proven anything that he can win the BIG game.
We don’t need the media to tell us that he did something spectacular….he hasn’t….yet.
That is right, we don't need the media, pundits, retired high level NHLers, to tell us he has done something spectacular, we have you..............
But you are wrong. McDavid has already done many spectacular things in the NHL.
Curious, you have 33 posts since starting here on the boards in mid-2022, all of them are about hockey, or back and forth patting on the back with Goldenage. Goldenage was banned and then you started posting even more. Any chance you are an ALT for @Goldenage? Welcome back.................
Let the mud slinging begin…..I have no idea that @Goldenage was banned. I didn’t mind his love for Bobby Orr. Just like I don’t mind your love for CM. What I find disturbing is that when someone disagrees with you that you would CREEP their previous posts. I’m sure you’ve done it with other members. Let it go…..
AGAIN, CM is a great player. Hopefully he gets better….