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Kudo’s to Mike Trout

DarinDarin Posts: 6,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

for playing in the WBC. His only chance to win on a baseball field. They beat baseball superpower Great Britain yesterday. Will be following closely but have concerns with Bobby Witt jr. on the team he may not be getting many AB’s with Arenado at 3rd and Trea Turner at short. Bobby is a good backup for those guys but I would rather see him getting consistent playing time in spring training. Anyway go USA.

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In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
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Comments

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    Realistically whether or not Whitt gets any at bats its good for him to be around some stars he can learn from. Hes already the best player on the Royals and whether he hits 1 Hr or 100 this year the Royals wont be going to the playoffs.

    The real thing for fans and teams to be concerned about is the pitchers. They're going full game mode with very little time to ramp up where in spring training they work on things without caring about the results. Some guys have the clout a team cant tell them no, but if I was a team Id be doing everything possible to keep my pitchers out of it especially the starters

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Trouty has struck out 3 times in 2 games. He's clearly not yet in regular season mode, though, because he's gone down swinging all 3 times. He'll get there...

    You'll know he's ready for the regular season and the real games to start once he's able to watch 3 straight strikes go by and not even flinch.
    .

  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I watched part of the game against Mexico until the Royals Brady Singer got drilled for 4 runs in 2 innings.
    Witt got a double so he’s 1 for 1 🤗

    DISCLAIMER FOR BASEBAL21
    In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    3-run homerun in the bottom of the first to make the score 9-0 in the game, after which the Canadian manager admitted he was saving his best pitchers for the next game. Trouty certainly has solidified his rep as an outstanding $5 blackjack player. Just wait until the "pressure" of a "big at bat" in a "must win" game in an exhibition tournament gets to him.





  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To which I can only say, you're missing a great career!

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Kudos! The man finally has something he can put on that HOF plaque!

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:
    To which I can only say, you're missing a great career!

    I've watched nearly every regular season at bat, and 100% of the postseason at bats, of Trouty's entire career. I haven't missed a thing.

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭✭

    3 for 4 with 3 RBIs in a game the US won 3-2 but CountDouglas will tell you his 8th inning strikeout is the only thing that matters, lol. For someone that has "watched every Trout at bat", Count Dougie knows next to nothing about baseball.

    Don't worry, good ole Dougie will drown any Trout thread with incessant posts of images that provide no value. What he lacks in baseball IQ he makes up with picture volume.

    Robb

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    How anyone could hate on Trout who could retire today and be in the HOF is beyond me

  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To be clear since I started the thread I only point out Trout is done playing in the post season and it is a shame but if they can’t win with him and ohtani then they never win. Yes I know it takes more than 2 perinnial mvp candidates but that’s a lot more than the royals had in ‘14 and ‘15.

    I’m not a trout liker but not a hater either.

    DISCLAIMER FOR BASEBAL21
    In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2023 3:32PM

    @Darin said:
    To be clear since I started the thread I only point out Trout is done playing in the post season and it is a shame but if they can’t win with him and ohtani then they never win. Yes I know it takes more than 2 perinnial mvp candidates but that’s a lot more than the royals had in ‘14 and ‘15.

    I’m not a trout liker but not a hater either.

    The Royals didnt have a Trout, but they had a balanced lineup, a strong bullpen, above average starting pitching and they got hot at the right time. Even the guys that didnt really produce for them those years tended to get on base a lot. Sometimes teams just have magical years. The 2014 team was built around a strong rotation and 3 lights out revilers. Games were over in the 7th against them that year

    If this was the NBA yes you could blame Trout and Othani, but its baseball. It takes a team. It takes 6 other position guys and a pitching staff. Trout literally did basically all he could for a decade to carry that team and it wasnt enough because they cant pitch. The Angels wasting him and robbing us of post season Trout is tragic, but Trout was literally the best player in baseball from 2012-2019. He cant play every position and pitch all at once

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Angels pitching miraculously got a lot better this off-season, and it's not even because they added quality pitching.
    .



    .
    This is a screenshot of a comment about the future HOFer Trouty's defense from from a previous thread. I mentioned the incorrect Royals minor league castoff's name, but the idea is the same, and the Angels' front office clearly attended the University of Countdouglas.
    .

    .
    I promise you this, too.

    In much more limited playing time than Trouty this year, Brett Phillips will have significantly more memorable late game heroics to win games for the Angels. Both with his glove, and at the plate.

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fergie23 said:
    3 for 4 with 3 RBIs in a game the US won 3-2 but CountDouglas will tell you his 8th inning strikeout is the only thing that matters, lol. For someone that has "watched every Trout at bat", Count Dougie knows next to nothing about baseball.

    Don't worry, good ole Dougie will drown any Trout thread with incessant posts of images that provide no value. What he lacks in baseball IQ he makes up with picture volume.

    Robb

    .

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭✭

    Dougie, how long did you spend sniffing around the Internet for pictures of Trout grabbing his junk? So pathetic, lol.

    Robb

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    How anyone could hate on Trout who could retire today and be in the HOF is beyond me

    I agree.
    Mickey Mantle struck out a lot, but he played on good teams. Killebrew whiffed a lot as well, Ernie Banks struck out 1,200 times and they never won a championship.
    I don't follow Trout, but he seems to be one of the best players of this generation.
    Lifetime BA above .300 to go along with a SLG of almost .600 is AMAZING!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2023 10:45AM

    Saying Trout is as much to blame for the Angels failures is just LOL. Trout is literally a top 20 if not top 10 player of all time

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    How anyone could hate on Trout who could retire today and be in the HOF is beyond me

    I agree.
    Mickey Mantle struck out a lot, but he played on good teams. Killebrew whiffed a lot as well, Ernie Banks struck out 1,200 times and they never won a championship.
    I don't follow Trout, but he seems to be one of the best players of this generation.
    Lifetime BA above .300 to go along with a SLG of almost .600 is AMAZING!

    Not one of the best, he is the best player of his generation. He's doing it as a CFer and hes only 30. Thats how good he is that it seems like hes in the twilight of his career because hes been in the league so long. Back issues might unfortunately cut his career short, but hes the best player of his generation and that includes over guys like Manny/Arrenado etc

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    How anyone could hate on Trout who could retire today and be in the HOF is beyond me

    I agree.
    Mickey Mantle struck out a lot, but he played on good teams. Killebrew whiffed a lot as well, Ernie Banks struck out 1,200 times and they never won a championship.
    I don't follow Trout, but he seems to be one of the best players of this generation.
    Lifetime BA above .300 to go along with a SLG of almost .600 is AMAZING!

    Not one of the best, he is the best player of his generation. He's doing it as a CFer and hes only 30. Thats how good he is that it seems like hes in the twilight of his career because hes been in the league so long. Back issues might unfortunately cut his career short, but hes the best player of his generation and that includes over guys like Manny/Arrenado etc

    It looks like it comes down to Trout or Pujols. Hitting for the first 10 years goes to Albert, with Trout getting a big positional advantage.
    Mike looks like he might be breaking down, if he can't play anywhere near a full seasons anymore, Albert is going to make up the "all around" ability with good health and longevity.
    Pujols hardly ever missed a game for 17 seasons. Trout played a lot for 6 out of 7 years.
    Too early to tell imo.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    How anyone could hate on Trout who could retire today and be in the HOF is beyond me

    I agree.
    Mickey Mantle struck out a lot, but he played on good teams. Killebrew whiffed a lot as well, Ernie Banks struck out 1,200 times and they never won a championship.
    I don't follow Trout, but he seems to be one of the best players of this generation.
    Lifetime BA above .300 to go along with a SLG of almost .600 is AMAZING!

    Not one of the best, he is the best player of his generation. He's doing it as a CFer and hes only 30. Thats how good he is that it seems like hes in the twilight of his career because hes been in the league so long. Back issues might unfortunately cut his career short, but hes the best player of his generation and that includes over guys like Manny/Arrenado etc

    It looks like it comes down to Trout or Pujols. Hitting for the first 10 years goes to Albert, with Trout getting a big positional advantage.
    Mike looks like he might be breaking down, if he can't play anywhere near a full seasons anymore, Albert is going to make up the "all around" ability with good health and longevity.
    Pujols hardly ever missed a game for 17 seasons. Trout played a lot for 6 out of 7 years.
    Too early to tell imo.

    Pujols is a different generation though. Pujols was born in 1980 (maybe earlier with many players having had forged documents at that time) Trout was born in 1991. Dont get me wrong Pujols is an all time great, but Trout has been better than him to this point. Trout got robbed of 2020 and has had to deal with no real normal spring training since 2019 from rules/lockouts/WBC etc. Trout also has done what hes done as a CFer not a 1st/DH

    Even with his back issues he still hit 40 HRs last year. Pujols could end up having the better career due to his injuries, but Trout had the better prime already. If he retired to today Trouts numbers other than accumulation are all higher from slug, average, advanced stats

    He really is very under appreciated due to playing on a team that no one cares about. It is a shame that his prime and Othani are being wasted on a feeble Angels organization

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want to cherry pick a 8 year period of dominance and claim that makes him "the best player of his generation", you sure are entitled to do so, but Pujols had a 10 year streak that was (offensively) better.
    Mike has had 8 full seasons so far in which he has approximate SLG of .591 and has averaged 309 Total Bases per year.
    Compare that to Albert's first 10 seasons, he averaged a SLG of.625 and 358 Total Bases.
    Clear offensive winner here is Al.
    Trout's defense is a big equalizer no doubt.
    The next 5-10 years is going to tell the tale; can Mike continue to play that long, how much, how well and will he remain in CF?
    I consider two players who's careers overlap by 11 seasons to be contemporaries, not of different generations.
    I know something about a player being unappreciated, I watched Killebrew obliterate the AL for a decade, and outside of Minnesota, he was virtually unknown. Trout gets a lot more recognition and he deserves it.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    Pujols was at minimum 11 when Trout was born, thats a different generation.

    I'm not cherry picking anything about Trout, its just what his body of work is to this point as a 30 year old verse a 43 year old retired player. His numbers so far are better. Bases per year dont matter, theres a lot of team dependency on that. Pujols also played in a much more hitter friendly park in STL with a better supporting cast, Trout out performed Pujols every year they were teammates as well. Trouts actually been robbed of a number of awards and MVPs because of team performance.

    Its not a knock on Pujols at all, this is just arguing whether youd rather have a million dollars or a million and one dollars. Its just more of a reflection on just how insanely good Trout has been so far

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 596 ✭✭✭

    @countdouglas said:

    @daltex said:
    To which I can only say, you're missing a great career!

    I've watched nearly every regular season at bat, and 100% of the postseason at bats, of Trouty's entire career. I haven't missed a thing.

    I didn't see you at the Kernals games in Cedar Rapids ;)

    Still trying to locate my kernels Trout bobblehead which was never opened that I left at my parents house. They moved 7 years ago and still looking for it. He was sure fun to watch then too.

  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Haven't both been in MLB at the same time about 10 years or so? That's not different generations. They are contemporaries.

    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
    http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/

    Ralph

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @Brick said:
    Haven't both been in MLB at the same time about 10 years or so? That's not different generations. They are contemporaries.

    As said Trout was born in 1991Pujols 1980 at the latest

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pujols was effectively done as a player by the time Trout came along. Starting with Trout's first full season, Pujols has received a total of 13 MVP points, or fewer than Adley Rutschman had last year alone. Pujols was as much a contemporary as Ken Griffey, and for the same reasons.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:
    Pujols was effectively done as a player by the time Trout came along. Starting with Trout's first full season, Pujols has received a total of 13 MVP points, or fewer than Adley Rutschman had last year alone. Pujols was as much a contemporary as Ken Griffey, and for the same reasons.

    No need to diminish Pujols for the conversation. Rushman isnt even remotely close to either Trout or Pujols. Hes not even in the HOF conversation and wont be, Slightly above average catcher

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @daltex said:
    Pujols was effectively done as a player by the time Trout came along. Starting with Trout's first full season, Pujols has received a total of 13 MVP points, or fewer than Adley Rutschman had last year alone. Pujols was as much a contemporary as Ken Griffey, and for the same reasons.

    No need to diminish Pujols for the conversation. Rushman isnt even remotely close to either Trout or Pujols. Hes not even in the HOF conversation and wont be, Slightly above average catcher

    Not trying to diminish Pujols. Just saying he was pretty much through after 2011. Pujols was GREAT until he left St. Louis and would no doubt have been considered a top 4 all time firstbaseman had he retired after 2011. Not as good as Gehrig, but clearly better than anyone except Foxx and Anson. The second half of his career did absolutely nothing for his stature.

    All of which is to say that two guys who were really not special at the same time the other was clearly the best in the game (Alex Rodriguez has an argument to be better than Pujols from 2001-2011, but I don't think it's a very good one) are contemporaries.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @countdouglas said:
    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

    Am I not mistaken? I thought your big complaint was that he struck out looking.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2023 2:20AM

    @daltex said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @daltex said:
    Pujols was effectively done as a player by the time Trout came along. Starting with Trout's first full season, Pujols has received a total of 13 MVP points, or fewer than Adley Rutschman had last year alone. Pujols was as much a contemporary as Ken Griffey, and for the same reasons.

    No need to diminish Pujols for the conversation. Rushman isnt even remotely close to either Trout or Pujols. Hes not even in the HOF conversation and wont be, Slightly above average catcher

    Not trying to diminish Pujols. Just saying he was pretty much through after 2011. Pujols was GREAT until he left St. Louis and would no doubt have been considered a top 4 all time firstbaseman had he retired after 2011. Not as good as Gehrig, but clearly better than anyone except Foxx and Anson. The second half of his career did absolutely nothing for his stature.

    All of which is to say that two guys who were really not special at the same time the other was clearly the best in the game (Alex Rodriguez has an argument to be better than Pujols from 2001-2011, but I don't think it's a very good one) are contemporaries.

    Pujols is the best first baseman ever. Arod and Pujols were the same generation being 5 years apart of their birth dates. Bonds was the best player of that generation by far and Arod would have topped Pujols. Again not a knock on him more just how lucky weve been to see so many all time greats during a lifetime who put up records that will take 20 years or more to challenge

    Trout and possibly Harper are the two that could potentially challenge the 700 HR club but even both of them are a decade away assuming no one starts hitting 100 a year. Even Manny and Arenado could average 30 a year for a decade and only be be in the 500s. Harper would be a very long shot too. Trout is the only one with a realistic chance and after that were looking at guys like Acuna or Tatis who are 15-20 years away or guys that havent even made it to the pros yet. The only one over 500 thats active is Miggy and hes about to retire, Cruz is the only other one over 400 and hes in his 40s, Stanton is just to old at 32 with only 378. Trouts really the only realistic shot in the next decade

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that the length of Pujols career gives the impression that they played in the same generation of players. And maybe it's true.

    I could compare it to Bird and Jordan. Bird is 6 years older than Jordan. Bird also entered the league relatively late and retired relatively early. Their careers overlapped (seeing an aging Bird play for Celtics teams which dominated the young Jordan's Bulls in the playoffs) but they are often looked at as being from successive generations rather than the same.

    I personally think of both scenarios as one generation overlapping the other.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    If you want to cherry pick a 8 year period of dominance and claim that makes him "the best player of his generation", you sure are entitled to do so, but Pujols had a 10 year streak that was (offensively) better.
    Mike has had 8 full seasons so far in which he has approximate SLG of .591 and has averaged 309 Total Bases per year.
    Compare that to Albert's first 10 seasons, he averaged a SLG of.625 and 358 Total Bases.
    Clear offensive winner here is Al.
    Trout's defense is a big equalizer no doubt.
    The next 5-10 years is going to tell the tale; can Mike continue to play that long, how much, how well and will he remain in CF?
    I consider two players who's careers overlap by 11 seasons to be contemporaries, not of different generations.
    I know something about a player being unappreciated, I watched Killebrew obliterate the AL for a decade, and outside of Minnesota, he was virtually unknown. Trout gets a lot more recognition and he deserves it.

    I agree that Pujols was a better offensive force, at least for the first 10 years of Trouts career.

    The positional adjustment part? I haven't checked the stats for a while, but from memory, Trout at his best is an average CF, and most seasons is below average. Not as bad as Jeter, but he shouldnt be playing CF. probably should be at LF because of the weak arm.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @countdouglas said:
    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.

    innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.

    innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.

    extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.

    Maybe the count is on to something here...

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @countdouglas said:
    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.

    innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.

    innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.

    extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.

    Maybe the count is on to something here...

    Do baseball analytics or statisticians care about late vs early inning? Is clutch real? Is Trout really, really great but could be even better if his stats were flipped to more critical situations?

  • georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.

    innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.

    innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.

    extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.

    Maybe the count is on to something here...

    With the current strategy of pitcher usage, I suspect this is the case with virtually all hitters.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    >

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    ...

    So you are saying Trout was Paul Goldschmidt on steroids from innings 7-9? Goldschmidt has a lifetime OPS of .917 for his career(in all innings). Trout .962 from innings 7-9. Pretty darn impressive feat for Trout

    In an attempt to knock Trout it just showed how good a hitter he actually is.

    Freddie Freeman has a lifetime .895 OPS.

    Freeman and Goldschmidt are often praised for their ability to hit for average and power and are known as elite hitters in this generation.....and Trout was them on steroids from innings 7-9.

    Goldschmidt for innings 7-9 is .848 lifetime OPS. Freeman .853.

    Trout 962 OPS pretty darn impressive for innings 7-9. From 2011 to present how many MLB hitters have been able to do that in innings 7-9 with at least six seasons worth of at bats?

    Pujols was .892 for his career in innings 7-9.

    Only 79 career at bats in extra innings...so not exactly much to go on there....goes into the trivial bin.

    The strikeout rate also trivial as he put up a .962 OPS. He could have struck out every one of his outs and still been a beast with .962 OPS.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    >

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    ...

    So you are saying Trout was Paul Goldschmidt on steroids from innings 7-9? Goldschmidt has a lifetime OPS of .917 for his career(in all innings). Trout .962 from innings 7-9. Pretty darn impressive feat for Trout

    In an attempt to knock Trout it just showed how good a hitter he actually is.

    Freddie Freeman has a lifetime .895 OPS.

    Freeman and Goldschmidt are often praised for their ability to hit for average and power and are known as elite hitters in this generation.....and Trout was them on steroids from innings 7-9.

    Goldschmidt for innings 7-9 is .848 lifetime OPS. Freeman .853.

    Trout 962 OPS pretty darn impressive for innings 7-9. From 2011 to present how many MLB hitters have been able to do that in innings 7-9 with at least six seasons worth of at bats?

    Pujols was .892 for his career in innings 7-9.

    Only 79 career at bats in extra innings...so not exactly much to go on there....goes into the trivial bin.

    The strikeout rate also trivial as he put up a .962 OPS. He could have struck out every one of his outs and still been a beast with .962 OPS.

    did i say anywhere that I was trying to "knock Trout?" I am just showing the statistical record. Dont shoot the messanger.

    Fact: Trout strikes out at a higher rate as the game progresses.

    I also was not comparing Trout with any other player than Trout himself.

    I would not call any extra inning at bat "trivial" they are all important. It just so happens that Trout performs at his worst then.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @craig44 said:

    @countdouglas said:
    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.

    innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.

    innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.

    extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.

    Maybe the count is on to something here...

    Do baseball analytics or statisticians care about late vs early inning? Is clutch real? Is Trout really, really great but could be even better if his stats were flipped to more critical situations?

    oh boy, getting into clutch and whether it exists or not can get pretty dicey here at sports forum. almost as dicey as when the 3rd baseman from KC gets brought up...

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    Bases per year dont matter, theres a lot of team dependency on that.

    Yes they do.
    50 more bases per year is a LOT and that's ignoring Trout's last two seasons where he averaged 100 per year. If you add those years Mike drops to 267 TB per year, almost 100 less per season on average than Al's first 10.
    Furthermore, Mikes best 2 years of TB were 338 & 339 while Al had 7 years above 350 and his best 2 were 389 & 394!
    There's no team "dependency" on Total Bases.
    Trout looks like he MAY be having a huge dropoff in production after posting 8 great years out of his first 10-11.
    Less importantly, you are also incorrect in your "generation" argument. Regardless of what you think, a generation is defined as a 20-30 year period, so while Al's numbers were dropping when Mike arrived, they are still of the same generation.
    I really like Trout and for several years he was a superb all around player, better than Albert ever was, especially with his base stealing and positional advantage.
    Albert had a MUCH BETTER 10 year period as a hitter, there's really no argument that has been advanced other than telling me "total bases don't matter". They sure do, and aren't team dependant.
    If Trout can get back on the field for full seasons, and produce for the next 5-7 years at a high level it will help his cause greatly, but as of right now, he would be my pick as second best of this generation.
    Unless you can come up with some meaningful FACTS, I'm not going to pursue the debate any further. The 1 shortened season does effect Mike a little, but him being injured is not an excuse. If you are not in the lineup, you don't produce.
    Have a great week!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^^^^^^^ Joe, you are correct, the greatest ability is availability!

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    >

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    ...

    So you are saying Trout was Paul Goldschmidt on steroids from innings 7-9? Goldschmidt has a lifetime OPS of .917 for his career(in all innings). Trout .962 from innings 7-9. Pretty darn impressive feat for Trout

    In an attempt to knock Trout it just showed how good a hitter he actually is.

    Freddie Freeman has a lifetime .895 OPS.

    Freeman and Goldschmidt are often praised for their ability to hit for average and power and are known as elite hitters in this generation.....and Trout was them on steroids from innings 7-9.

    Goldschmidt for innings 7-9 is .848 lifetime OPS. Freeman .853.

    Trout 962 OPS pretty darn impressive for innings 7-9. From 2011 to present how many MLB hitters have been able to do that in innings 7-9 with at least six seasons worth of at bats?

    Pujols was .892 for his career in innings 7-9.

    Only 79 career at bats in extra innings...so not exactly much to go on there....goes into the trivial bin.

    The strikeout rate also trivial as he put up a .962 OPS. He could have struck out every one of his outs and still been a beast with .962 OPS.

    did i say anywhere that I was trying to "knock Trout?" I am just showing the statistical record. Dont shoot the messanger.

    Fact: Trout strikes out at a higher rate as the game progresses.

    I also was not comparing Trout with any other player than Trout himself.

    I would not call any extra inning at bat "trivial" they are all important. It just so happens that Trout performs at his worst then.

    The entire thread is to knock Trout, save for the few people who did not.

    Yes, the fact is he performed 'less' than himself in innings 7-9. It is also a fact that he performed better than nearly every one of his peers in the league in innings 7-9 too. There might be a couple guys who out performed him(that played at least six years), but it isn't a bother trying to find them, because the entire premise of posting that info is pointless and not accurate in determining how good Trout is. Actually, it is used to discredit him, but in the end it showed the opposite.

    The extra innings difference is simple random chance in a small amount of at bats. Yes, trivial when determining his ability.

    Strikeouts, compared to contact outs, are so overblown it is ridiculous. The .962 OPS makes it extra meaningless.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @craig44 said:

    @countdouglas said:
    This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.

    Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.

    3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
    .

    this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:

    innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
    it gets worse in extra innings...
    BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380

    innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.

    The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.

    innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.

    innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.

    extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.

    Maybe the count is on to something here...

    Do baseball analytics or statisticians care about late vs early inning? Is clutch real? Is Trout really, really great but could be even better if his stats were flipped to more critical situations?

    Last year in all of MLB Innings 7-9 in MLB tend to show a decrease in hitting across the board primarily due to the elite arms that are used most often at that time in the game.

    If you want to say that Trout isn't 'clutch' because his numbers are worse in innings 7-9 compared to the first six innings, that is a way of phrasing it. He did do worse there, so whatever adjective is applied, he didn't do as well.

    But, when you see that he still does better than everyone else in the league in innings 7-9, that kind of changes the perspective a little and basically makes the exercise nearly completely meaningless.

    A broadcaster can use the info to entertain the fans watching, maybe has some use there....but the broadcaster, if he wants accuracy, would point out "that even though Trout does worse in innings 7-9 that he is still hitting better than Goldschmidt and Freeman do all year, so if you think those guys are good, then Trout ain't doing half bad ;)."

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^^^^ Joe, you are correct, the greatest ability is availability!

    I think Trout looked the closest to Mantle of any player since Griffey Jr. I really like him!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^^^^ Joe, you are correct, the greatest ability is availability!

    I think Trout looked the closest to Mantle of any player since Griffey Jr. I really like him!

    I think Mantle is a good comparison. Like you said, the next five years are going to be huge for where Trout truly lands historically. He can't stay on the field anymore and that is going to cost him when comparing to guys who were also elite but played every day.

    People do forget that Pujols's career with the Cardinals he had a 170 OPS+. Frank Thomas's start as well with a career 182 OPS+ through age 29 season.

    However, even though they are from the same enough generation, MLB from 2001-2009 is still a slightly different environment from the last twelve years. 2010 represents the beginning of a stark drop in league wide offense. There were a few blips that were high like in 2019, but I would put the early 2000's more with the live ball era from 1994 and on.

    I would put Pujols's prime and compare it to Frank Thomas and company.

    This year may be the start of another offensive explosion era.

    I don't disagree with you guys about his defense and inflated defensive value. If he truly is a guy playing CF that really shouldn't, then that shouldn't help his stats as much as those defensive measurements say.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I forgot about Frank Thomas! He was a tremendous hitter.
    He had a great start, but other than the shortened 1994 season, he doesn't quite match Albert. Lifetime totals really favor Albert as well.
    I don't value walks as much as some to when it comes to a guy who slugs in the high 500's.
    A walk to those guys is a win for the pitcher😁

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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