@JoeBanzai said:
I forgot about Frank Thomas! He was a tremendous hitter.
He had a great start, but other than the shortened 1994 season, he doesn't quite match Albert. Lifetime totals really favor Albert as well.
I don't value walks as much as some to when it comes to a guy who slugs in the high 500's.
A walk to those guys is a win for the pitcher😁
Yup. Frank fizzled a little quicker and didn't last as long. Like you pointed out in regard to Trout, that could happen to him too.
Stats never take into account factors of things like playing in empty stadiums, playing sick/injured, steroids vs all natural, etc.
Statistics have meaning, but like any data, paralysis by analysis can set in when there's almost unlimited variables and interpretation.
I enjoy the perspectives everyone has. I tend to believe nobody is arguing for right vs wrong but merely stating some facts to back their opinions and then see what responses are generated.
I'm a hard-core numbers nerd and the points being made are great.👍
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
@countdouglas said:
This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.
Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.
3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
.
this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:
innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
it gets worse in extra innings...
BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380
innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.
The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.
innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.
innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.
extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.
Maybe the count is on to something here...
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
@Basebal21 said:
Bases per year dont matter, theres a lot of team dependency on that.
Yes they do.
50 more bases per year is a LOT and that's ignoring Trout's last two seasons where he averaged 100 per year. If you add those years Mike drops to 267 TB per year, almost 100 less per season on average than Al's first 10.
Furthermore, Mikes best 2 years of TB were 338 & 339 while Al had 7 years above 350 and his best 2 were 389 & 394!
There's no team "dependency" on Total Bases.
Trout looks like he MAY be having a huge dropoff in production after posting 8 great years out of his first 10-11.
Less importantly, you are also incorrect in your "generation" argument. Regardless of what you think, a generation is defined as a 20-30 year period, so while Al's numbers were dropping when Mike arrived, they are still of the same generation.
I really like Trout and for several years he was a superb all around player, better than Albert ever was, especially with his base stealing and positional advantage.
Albert had a MUCH BETTER 10 year period as a hitter, there's really no argument that has been advanced other than telling me "total bases don't matter". They sure do, and aren't team dependant.
If Trout can get back on the field for full seasons, and produce for the next 5-7 years at a high level it will help his cause greatly, but as of right now, he would be my pick as second best of this generation.
Unless you can come up with some meaningful FACTS, I'm not going to pursue the debate any further. The 1 shortened season does effect Mike a little, but him being injured is not an excuse. If you are not in the lineup, you don't produce.
Have a great week!
The problem with bases per year is it relies to much on your team to be a meaningful measure of a players stats. If guys arent hitting behind him his bases will be artificially low, just like if everyone behind him is hitting a ton of homeruns theyll be artificially high. The same is true with runs scored. Aside from homeruns you cant drive yourself in.
Trouts age 20-27 seasons where better than Pujols 21-27. His on base was higher, slug and power were very similar, advanced stats favor Trout a bit for the park he played in vs STL which is a hitters park, and he did so while also stealing 200 bases during that time
@countdouglas said:
This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.
Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.
3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
.
this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:
innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
it gets worse in extra innings...
BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380
innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.
The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.
innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.
innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.
extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.
Maybe the count is on to something here...
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
I don't know where you get your facts from, or if you just make things up as you go along, but I looked at Pujols' numbers and while they got a little worse in innings 7-9 he actually got a LOT better in extra innings. In fact, his extra innings SLG was higher than every other single inning except for the 5th.
Trout on the other hand has the worst numbers in the 9th of innings 1-9 and absolutely horrible numbers in extra innings.
I'm not going to do a lot of research, but both Frank Thomas and Harmon Killebrew had great extra innings numbers.
Killebrew actually hit better in the extra innings than in any other.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Au contraire Mr. Robinson,
the point of the thread was not to knock Trout, I should know I started it. I said kudos to Trout for realizing he’ll never win with the angels so playing on the wbc team is his only hope to taste victory at his chosen profession.
You can tell by watching Trout during the season when he stays healthy that the constant losing takes a toll on him. He always appears listless and without much energy as another losing season winds down.
@countdouglas said:
This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.
Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.
3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
.
this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:
innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
it gets worse in extra innings...
BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380
innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.
The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.
innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.
innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.
extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.
Maybe the count is on to something here...
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
I don't know where you get your facts from, or if you just make things up as you go along, but I looked at Pujols' numbers and while they got a little worse in innings 7-9 he actually got a LOT better in extra innings. In fact, his extra innings SLG was higher than every other single inning except for the 5th.
Trout on the other hand has the worst numbers in the 9th of innings 1-9 and absolutely horrible numbers in extra innings.
I'm not going to do a lot of research, but both Frank Thomas and Harmon Killebrew had great extra innings numbers.
Killebrew actually hit better in the extra innings than in any other.
So Pujols career of 175 extra inning at bats is supposed to be meaningful when he had 11,421 at bats in his career?
Trout has 79 extra inning at bats with over 5000 career at bats. Completely meaningless minuscule sample size
Extra innings is completely meaningless its such a small sample size, its not even half a season of at bats over the course of a 20 year career for Pujols and now its even more meaningless with the runner on second.
Extra innings stats are like the Mr. Baseball quote of leading the team in 9th inning doubles in the month of August
@countdouglas said:
This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.
Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.
3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
.
this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:
innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
it gets worse in extra innings...
BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380
innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.
The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.
innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.
innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.
extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.
Maybe the count is on to something here...
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
I don't know where you get your facts from, or if you just make things up as you go along, but I looked at Pujols' numbers and while they got a little worse in innings 7-9 he actually got a LOT better in extra innings. In fact, his extra innings SLG was higher than every other single inning except for the 5th.
Trout on the other hand has the worst numbers in the 9th of innings 1-9 and absolutely horrible numbers in extra innings.
I'm not going to do a lot of research, but both Frank Thomas and Harmon Killebrew had great extra innings numbers.
Killebrew actually hit better in the extra innings than in any other.
So Pujols career of 175 extra inning at bats is supposed to be meaningful when he had 11,421 at bats in his career?
Trout has 79 extra inning at bats with over 5000 career at bats. Completely meaningless minuscule sample size
Extra innings is completely meaningless its such a small sample size, its not even half a season of at bats over the course of a 20 year career for Pujols and now its even more meaningless with the runner on second.
Extra innings stats are like the Mr. Baseball quote of leading the team in 9th inning doubles in the month of August
Obviously there are less numbers to look at, most games do not go into extra innings.
The fact is I took the time to look at a few different sluggers and they were all good in extra innings and Trout was terrible.
I didn't get my numbers from the movie Mr Baseball, but from baseballreference.com
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@countdouglas said:
This is a real response to a question from an MLB survey. It's like having the pitcher hit in the 2 spot or 3 spot in the lineup late in the game. And they don't let pitchers hit anymore.
Pay attention. Watch the games. There is a reason the Angels lose as much as they do, and Trouty is as much to blame for holding his teammates back as the general consensus that his teammates are the ones holding him back.
3 strikeouts last night. Once again, all swinging, including in the 7th and 8th innings. Easiest out in the game when the pitcher NEEDS an out.
.
this got me curious, so I checked out Trouts splits. You are correct, there is a drop-off in production after the 6th inning:
innings 7-9: BA, .281, OBP, .417 SLG, .545
it gets worse in extra innings...
BA .241, OBP .434 SLG .380
innings 1-6 the BA is well over .300 and SLG is over .600. his OBP stays pretty consistent.
The strikeout percentage gets much worse as the game progresses.
innings 1-6 Trout strikes out 25% of at bats.
innings 7-9 Trout strikes out 30% of at bats.
extra innings, Trout strikes out 35% of at bats.
Maybe the count is on to something here...
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
I don't know where you get your facts from, or if you just make things up as you go along, but I looked at Pujols' numbers and while they got a little worse in innings 7-9 he actually got a LOT better in extra innings. In fact, his extra innings SLG was higher than every other single inning except for the 5th.
Trout on the other hand has the worst numbers in the 9th of innings 1-9 and absolutely horrible numbers in extra innings.
I'm not going to do a lot of research, but both Frank Thomas and Harmon Killebrew had great extra innings numbers.
Killebrew actually hit better in the extra innings than in any other.
So Pujols career of 175 extra inning at bats is supposed to be meaningful when he had 11,421 at bats in his career?
Trout has 79 extra inning at bats with over 5000 career at bats. Completely meaningless minuscule sample size
Extra innings is completely meaningless its such a small sample size, its not even half a season of at bats over the course of a 20 year career for Pujols and now its even more meaningless with the runner on second.
Extra innings stats are like the Mr. Baseball quote of leading the team in 9th inning doubles in the month of August
Obviously there are less numbers to look at, most games do not go into extra innings.
The fact is I took the time to look at a few different sluggers and they were all good in extra innings and Trout was terrible.
I didn't get my numbers from the movie Mr Baseball, but from baseballreference.com
Trout isnt terrible in extra innings, he still has a .434 OBP. Thats elite.
But the point is it simply doesnt matter. Youre talking about miniscule sample sizes. 79 at bats in a decade is nothing for Trout, 175 at bats in over 20 years is nothing for Pujols. They could have struck out every single at bat and it wouldnt make any difference in their numbers
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Well there are 12 at bats more important but since that will stay at 12 for the rest of his career let’s throw those out.
1–12 playoffs.
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
Well he’s in the championship game so I hope he practiced resting the bat on his shoulder today. If he could draw 3 walks that would be incredible!
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
Well he’s in the championship game so I hope he practiced resting the bat on his shoulder today. If he could draw 3 walks that would be incredible!
Whatever happens isnt on him. Theres multiple superstars and HOF players in the USA lineup. The walk off double from Japan was electric though
@Darin said:
Au contraire Mr. Robinson,
the point of the thread was not to knock Trout, I should know I started it. I said kudos to Trout for realizing he’ll never win with the angels so playing on the wbc team is his only hope to taste victory at his chosen profession.
You can tell by watching Trout during the season when he stays healthy that the constant losing takes a toll on him. He always appears listless and without much energy as another losing season winds down.
My apologies to your intent.
I have even grown to enjoy countdouglas's ragging on Trout and his pictures. That is what sports is about for fans.
@craig44 said:
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
This view has more merit than focusing on a couple dozen at bats that are merely a product or random chance where some of the best players ever also had that same thing(and then Ted Williams should be thrown out of any greatest hitter discussion too).
Trout should have been a left fielder for the last several years and it may have hurt his team a little by sticking him in Center.
On a historical scale this extra boost to Trout's WAR should be noted....although WAR is not great already and including defense so I personally don't bother with the stat.
Do this instead. Make Trout a Left Fielder for his entire career and then calculate where he ranks among his peers. You do have to include his stolen bases and elite percentage there too.
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
I agree. Mike Trout is GREAT at walking. an all-time great as a matter of fact. My issue is, are Trouts skills best used by walking a lot? would it be more meaningful to his team if he were to widen his zone by 6 inches and be more aggressive at the plate? I am not all that impressed by a player walking all the time, especially if they have the potential to be a very good slugger.
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
Well he’s in the championship game so I hope he practiced resting the bat on his shoulder today. If he could draw 3 walks that would be incredible!
For Trout's career he has hit a home run once for every 17.5 times he has stepped up to the plate...better than Willie Mays AND Ted Williams (Mays and Williams sucked in post season too so there is the preemptive answer for when that 'critique' comes up) .
Trout is the current active leader in Slugging percentage(minimum 1,000 PA)
Trout is currently the third active leader in BA.
The fact that he got on base more frequently than Rickey Henderson is just a bonus I guess.
Considering that Trout has batted first or second in the lineup for 2/3 of his career trips to the plate, the fact that he does walk a lot should be viewed by old school baseball guys as an extreme positive....remember, you are not suppose to walk the table setters
I would say he does a tad more than walk
And he has more career home runs than George Brett and in half the games.....and against better pitching....so I guess he does take the bat off his shoulder
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
This view has more merit than focusing on a couple dozen at bats that are merely a product or random chance where some of the best players ever also had that same thing(and then Ted Williams should be thrown out of any greatest hitter discussion too).
Trout should have been a left fielder for the last several years and it may have hurt his team a little by sticking him in Center.
On a historical scale this extra boost to Trout's WAR should be noted....although WAR is not great already and including defense so I personally don't bother with the stat.
Do this instead. Make Trout a Left Fielder for his entire career and then calculate where he ranks among his peers. You do have to include his stolen bases and elite percentage there too.
He probably should have been moved a little earlier, but he wasnt. The problem with trying to recalculate for another position is that he didnt play that position. The numbers he put up were in CF not in LF which is easier to play. He might have put up even larger numbers staying fresher in LF. Some of the defensive short comings can be attributed to the team. By the time it gets to August/September on an eliminated team defense slips. The back issues certainly didnt help either
He's no where close to Jeter territory who was statistically the worst SS of all time. Jeter wasnt even the best SS on the left side of his own infield.
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
I agree. Mike Trout is GREAT at walking. an all-time great as a matter of fact. My issue is, are Trouts skills best used by walking a lot? would it be more meaningful to his team if he were to widen his zone by 6 inches and be more aggressive at the plate? I am not all that impressed by a player walking all the time, especially if they have the potential to be a very good slugger.
Widening by 6 inches would just lead to a lot more strikeouts. Part of the walks is because of his greatness. He gets pitched around a lot in big situations where other teams say if we lose its not going to be because Trout beat us. He has had a tendency to chase trying to make something happen. Its a hard spot to be in when his protection Rendon has basically been hurt ever since he got there. Getting on base is better than chasing gifting them an out, but ideally they would either find someone that forces a team to pitch to Trout or makes them pay for putting him on
@craig44 said:
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
I agree. Mike Trout is GREAT at walking. an all-time great as a matter of fact. My issue is, are Trouts skills best used by walking a lot? would it be more meaningful to his team if he were to widen his zone by 6 inches and be more aggressive at the plate? I am not all that impressed by a player walking all the time, especially if they have the potential to be a very good slugger.
Widening by 6 inches would just lead to a lot more strikeouts. Part of the walks is because of his greatness. He gets pitched around a lot in big situations where other teams say if we lose its not going to be because Trout beat us. He has had a tendency to chase trying to make something happen. Its a hard spot to be in when his protection Rendon has basically been hurt ever since he got there. Getting on base is better than chasing gifting them an out, but ideally they would either find someone that forces a team to pitch to Trout or makes them pay for putting him on
@craig44 said:
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
This view has more merit than focusing on a couple dozen at bats that are merely a product or random chance where some of the best players ever also had that same thing(and then Ted Williams should be thrown out of any greatest hitter discussion too).
Trout should have been a left fielder for the last several years and it may have hurt his team a little by sticking him in Center.
On a historical scale this extra boost to Trout's WAR should be noted....although WAR is not great already and including defense so I personally don't bother with the stat.
Do this instead. Make Trout a Left Fielder for his entire career and then calculate where he ranks among his peers. You do have to include his stolen bases and elite percentage there too.
He probably should have been moved a little earlier, but he wasnt. The problem with trying to recalculate for another position is that he didnt play that position. The numbers he put up were in CF not in LF which is easier to play. He might have put up even larger numbers staying fresher in LF. Some of the defensive short comings can be attributed to the team. By the time it gets to August/September on an eliminated team defense slips. The back issues certainly didnt help either
He's no where close to Jeter territory who was statistically the worst SS of all time. Jeter wasnt even the best SS on the left side of his own infield.
Good counterpoint...but not the Jeter part.
Jeter playing SS as the worst SS in the league as harder than any outfield position. I showed in another examination of those Yankee teams and the defensive measurements misvalue all of their up the middle guys.
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
His back issue shouldnt impact his legacy. Its a degenerative genetic thing that he has no control over just like Gehrig had no control over his condition. Trouts doing everything he can to keep himself in shape and on the field and seeing all the experts he can. Its not like hes gone Panda and just let himself go gaining 100 pounds eating his way out of the league.
Hopefully it wont have to much of an impact on his career, but if it does its not something he has any control over
@craig44 said:
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
This view has more merit than focusing on a couple dozen at bats that are merely a product or random chance where some of the best players ever also had that same thing(and then Ted Williams should be thrown out of any greatest hitter discussion too).
Trout should have been a left fielder for the last several years and it may have hurt his team a little by sticking him in Center.
On a historical scale this extra boost to Trout's WAR should be noted....although WAR is not great already and including defense so I personally don't bother with the stat.
Do this instead. Make Trout a Left Fielder for his entire career and then calculate where he ranks among his peers. You do have to include his stolen bases and elite percentage there too.
He probably should have been moved a little earlier, but he wasnt. The problem with trying to recalculate for another position is that he didnt play that position. The numbers he put up were in CF not in LF which is easier to play. He might have put up even larger numbers staying fresher in LF. Some of the defensive short comings can be attributed to the team. By the time it gets to August/September on an eliminated team defense slips. The back issues certainly didnt help either
He's no where close to Jeter territory who was statistically the worst SS of all time. Jeter wasnt even the best SS on the left side of his own infield.
Good counterpoint...but not the Jeter part.
Jeter playing SS as the worst SS in the league as harder than any outfield position. I showed in another examination of those Yankee teams and the defensive measurements misvalue all of their up the middle guys.
Infield is harder than outfield for sure given the missiles that can be hit at you. They're generally fairly different skill sets though. I think everyone would agree catcher is the one by far hardest position. Jeters lack of speed and range wouldnt allow him to play in the OF. The point with Jeter was just that he was terrible at his position. The Yankees should have moved him to 3rd or 2nd and left Arod at SS. Would it have won another championship probably not, but it would have given them their best chance. Most of Jeters highlight defensive plays are pretty routine things he just made look hard
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
His back issue shouldnt impact his legacy. Its a degenerative genetic thing that he has no control over just like Gehrig had no control over his condition. Trouts doing everything he can to keep himself in shape and on the field and seeing all the experts he can. Its not like hes gone Panda and just let himself go gaining 100 pounds eating his way out of the league.
Hopefully it wont have to much of an impact on his career, but if it does its not something he has any control over
Injuries do impact players legacies. Rightfully so.
No need to elaborate, many examples of players who couldn't stay on the field and didn't get the recognition they "deserved".
If Trout's career is over, or his productivity falls off dramatically because of it, that would be a shame.
Let's hope he can come back!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
His back issue shouldnt impact his legacy. Its a degenerative genetic thing that he has no control over just like Gehrig had no control over his condition. Trouts doing everything he can to keep himself in shape and on the field and seeing all the experts he can. Its not like hes gone Panda and just let himself go gaining 100 pounds eating his way out of the league.
Hopefully it wont have to much of an impact on his career, but if it does its not something he has any control over
Injuries do impact players legacies. Rightfully so.
No need to elaborate, many examples of players who couldn't stay on the field and didn't get the recognition they "deserved".
If Trout's career is over, or his productivity falls off dramatically because of it, that would be a shame.
Let's hope he can come back!
Injuries and genetic situations are different though and should be viewed differently. There are players that cant stay healthy, some get to muscle bound, others are very talented but lazy and so on. Genetic issues that cant be controlled are different and should be viewed differently.
Agreed that hopefully its not much of an issue, but if it is it shouldnt change the legacy
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
I say hes one of the greatest of all time because he is. The greatest hitters ever fail 7 out of 10 tiimes. Othani is an ace for a reason. Its an unrealistic expectation to expect a hitter to always do something. Thats just not how baseball works
Can everyone agree he will achieve HOF status? Hard to imagine not unless he gets caught up in something bad...Darryl Strawberry, Pete Rose, or Sosa style
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
His back issue shouldnt impact his legacy. Its a degenerative genetic thing that he has no control over just like Gehrig had no control over his condition. Trouts doing everything he can to keep himself in shape and on the field and seeing all the experts he can. Its not like hes gone Panda and just let himself go gaining 100 pounds eating his way out of the league.
Hopefully it wont have to much of an impact on his career, but if it does its not something he has any control over
I would say is degenerative condition could impact his legacy, all according to how quickly it progresses. case in point is Albert Belle. He was a monster for 9 or 10 seasons, then was out of the league by age 33 because of a degenerative hip condition. He would certainly have put together a HOF resume had he been able to get a few more uninjured seasons under his belt. As it stands, he will never make it.
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
This.
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
This.
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
sure. I didnt look for all of them, but I think old Teddy Ballgame did just fine when it was all on the line.
@Darin said:
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
This.
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
sure. I didnt look for all of them, but I think old Teddy Ballgame did just fine when it was all on the line.
in extra innings, 117 at bats, ops of 1.213
Williams never won and the one time he got there he was abysmal. The exact same as Trout.
The stance you guys use to knock down Trout's greatness would also elevate Derek Jeter to the greatest baseball player since 1969. Jeter has no peer. His combination of Batting average, total hits, championships won, and ultra big shining moments in the post season is unrivaled. That would make Jeter the absolute best player of the last few generations.
Comments
Yup. Frank fizzled a little quicker and didn't last as long. Like you pointed out in regard to Trout, that could happen to him too.
I'm pretty sure Jim Rice was at his best in the late innings, at least that's what this guy told me...😜🤣
This is a good thread, back to work boys.
Stats never take into account factors of things like playing in empty stadiums, playing sick/injured, steroids vs all natural, etc.
Statistics have meaning, but like any data, paralysis by analysis can set in when there's almost unlimited variables and interpretation.
I enjoy the perspectives everyone has. I tend to believe nobody is arguing for right vs wrong but merely stating some facts to back their opinions and then see what responses are generated.
I'm a hard-core numbers nerd and the points being made are great.👍
Pujols' numbers drop a bit in innings 7-9 but he crushes it in extra innings.
someone mentioned Trouts defense. It was never great, even at his best. now it is below average. here are a few indicators: (from SIS sports data)
Trout ranks 32nd in Defensive Runs Saved per 1,000 innings in center field 2020 and 2021. That’s out of the 35 players with the most innings played there
Trout has posted a negative Defensive Runs Saved total in each of the last three seasons and four of the last five seasons
he does have a 21-Runs Saved season to his credit … in 2012. Since then, he’s cost the Angels 24 runs with his defense
Since 2020, he’s allowed 42 of 61 runners to advance an extra base on balls he’s fielded. That’s a 69% advance rate allowed compared to an average rate of 54% for center fielders last season.
Trout has ranked last and next-to-last in the reaction component of Statcast’s Jump stat the last 2 seasons.
On average, he’s about 2 feet short of where he should be within the first 1.5 seconds of a ball being hit.
To summarize, Trout is getting a pretty big WAR boost from his positional adjustment. An adjustment he should not be getting as his is not, and has not been a quality CF for a number of years. Shades of Jeter, but not as bad. Yet.
He really should not be playing CF. At best LF, or, 1B/DH.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Theres a dropoff in basically everyone stats after the 6th inning, thats when starters usually come out and you start facing elite bullpen arms and closers
The problem with bases per year is it relies to much on your team to be a meaningful measure of a players stats. If guys arent hitting behind him his bases will be artificially low, just like if everyone behind him is hitting a ton of homeruns theyll be artificially high. The same is true with runs scored. Aside from homeruns you cant drive yourself in.
Trouts age 20-27 seasons where better than Pujols 21-27. His on base was higher, slug and power were very similar, advanced stats favor Trout a bit for the park he played in vs STL which is a hitters park, and he did so while also stealing 200 bases during that time
I don't know where you get your facts from, or if you just make things up as you go along, but I looked at Pujols' numbers and while they got a little worse in innings 7-9 he actually got a LOT better in extra innings. In fact, his extra innings SLG was higher than every other single inning except for the 5th.
Trout on the other hand has the worst numbers in the 9th of innings 1-9 and absolutely horrible numbers in extra innings.
I'm not going to do a lot of research, but both Frank Thomas and Harmon Killebrew had great extra innings numbers.
Killebrew actually hit better in the extra innings than in any other.
Au contraire Mr. Robinson,
the point of the thread was not to knock Trout, I should know I started it. I said kudos to Trout for realizing he’ll never win with the angels so playing on the wbc team is his only hope to taste victory at his chosen profession.
You can tell by watching Trout during the season when he stays healthy that the constant losing takes a toll on him. He always appears listless and without much energy as another losing season winds down.
So Pujols career of 175 extra inning at bats is supposed to be meaningful when he had 11,421 at bats in his career?
Trout has 79 extra inning at bats with over 5000 career at bats. Completely meaningless minuscule sample size
Extra innings is completely meaningless its such a small sample size, its not even half a season of at bats over the course of a 20 year career for Pujols and now its even more meaningless with the runner on second.
Extra innings stats are like the Mr. Baseball quote of leading the team in 9th inning doubles in the month of August
Obviously there are less numbers to look at, most games do not go into extra innings.
The fact is I took the time to look at a few different sluggers and they were all good in extra innings and Trout was terrible.
I didn't get my numbers from the movie Mr Baseball, but from baseballreference.com
Trout isnt terrible in extra innings, he still has a .434 OBP. Thats elite.
But the point is it simply doesnt matter. Youre talking about miniscule sample sizes. 79 at bats in a decade is nothing for Trout, 175 at bats in over 20 years is nothing for Pujols. They could have struck out every single at bat and it wouldnt make any difference in their numbers
Sample size shample size. He sucks in extra innings compared to the guys I looked at.
A .380 SLG is pathetic.
So then if someone is bad on days in June that are over 70 degrees during sunset thats relevant too?
Again a .438 OBP is ELITE even in a sample size of 1% of career at bats
79 at bats might be a small sample size, but they are the most important AB's. In the most important at bats of his career, Trout shrinks. the numbers dont lie.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well there are 12 at bats more important but since that will stay at 12 for the rest of his career let’s throw those out.
1–12 playoffs.
Numbers dont lie. .438 OBP is elite. His plate appearances were about 115 with all the walks. OBP for those that dont know is on base percentage which mean he got on base almost half the time. Thats elite
Mike Trout in a championship game!
High point of Trouts career!
Well he’s in the championship game so I hope he practiced resting the bat on his shoulder today. If he could draw 3 walks that would be incredible!
Whatever happens isnt on him. Theres multiple superstars and HOF players in the USA lineup. The walk off double from Japan was electric though
He walks a lot, he hits terribly. Big win for the pitcher.
My apologies to your intent.
I have even grown to enjoy countdouglas's ragging on Trout and his pictures. That is what sports is about for fans.
This view has more merit than focusing on a couple dozen at bats that are merely a product or random chance where some of the best players ever also had that same thing(and then Ted Williams should be thrown out of any greatest hitter discussion too).
Trout should have been a left fielder for the last several years and it may have hurt his team a little by sticking him in Center.
On a historical scale this extra boost to Trout's WAR should be noted....although WAR is not great already and including defense so I personally don't bother with the stat.
Do this instead. Make Trout a Left Fielder for his entire career and then calculate where he ranks among his peers. You do have to include his stolen bases and elite percentage there too.
I agree. Mike Trout is GREAT at walking. an all-time great as a matter of fact. My issue is, are Trouts skills best used by walking a lot? would it be more meaningful to his team if he were to widen his zone by 6 inches and be more aggressive at the plate? I am not all that impressed by a player walking all the time, especially if they have the potential to be a very good slugger.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
For Trout's career he has hit a home run once for every 17.5 times he has stepped up to the plate...better than Willie Mays AND Ted Williams (Mays and Williams sucked in post season too so there is the preemptive answer for when that 'critique' comes up) .
Trout is the current active leader in Slugging percentage(minimum 1,000 PA)
Trout is currently the third active leader in BA.
The fact that he got on base more frequently than Rickey Henderson is just a bonus I guess.
Considering that Trout has batted first or second in the lineup for 2/3 of his career trips to the plate, the fact that he does walk a lot should be viewed by old school baseball guys as an extreme positive....remember, you are not suppose to walk the table setters
I would say he does a tad more than walk
And he has more career home runs than George Brett and in half the games.....and against better pitching....so I guess he does take the bat off his shoulder
Please don't get me wrong.
Mike Trout is either the best or second best player in the last 20 years, and the best BY FAR from 2012-2019. No one can touch him. The big question is what happens next?
I don't think there's a lot of difference between his best 8 and Pujols'. I might even give it to Mike for those 8.
However, Pujols' had better hitting numbers for a 12 year period, while almost never missing a single game.
For my way of thinking, Mike is going to have to put up some big numbers and stay on the field to close the gap.
It would also be a good guess that Trout isn't going to be stealing bases at all, or even be playing CF much longer, so those advantages are going to lessen.
I would love to see him prove me wrong.
GO MIKE TROUT!
He probably should have been moved a little earlier, but he wasnt. The problem with trying to recalculate for another position is that he didnt play that position. The numbers he put up were in CF not in LF which is easier to play. He might have put up even larger numbers staying fresher in LF. Some of the defensive short comings can be attributed to the team. By the time it gets to August/September on an eliminated team defense slips. The back issues certainly didnt help either
He's no where close to Jeter territory who was statistically the worst SS of all time. Jeter wasnt even the best SS on the left side of his own infield.
Widening by 6 inches would just lead to a lot more strikeouts. Part of the walks is because of his greatness. He gets pitched around a lot in big situations where other teams say if we lose its not going to be because Trout beat us. He has had a tendency to chase trying to make something happen. Its a hard spot to be in when his protection Rendon has basically been hurt ever since he got there. Getting on base is better than chasing gifting them an out, but ideally they would either find someone that forces a team to pitch to Trout or makes them pay for putting him on
Spot on and well written explanation.
Good counterpoint...but not the Jeter part.
Jeter playing SS as the worst SS in the league as harder than any outfield position. I showed in another examination of those Yankee teams and the defensive measurements misvalue all of their up the middle guys.
He has been injury plagued since 2017. He just missed a couple 50 home run seasons because of those injuries. Those eye popper 50 homer seasons would have changed a few perceptions....a few. The crowd that rails on him for never winning will never be satisfied. Even if he got traded and won with a real organization they will give him the Lebron treatment and say he chased a title.
I agree he needs a few more 140+ game seasons or his legacy is going to suffer(and not the foolish suffering of not winning for playing for a team that made bad decisions).
His back issue shouldnt impact his legacy. Its a degenerative genetic thing that he has no control over just like Gehrig had no control over his condition. Trouts doing everything he can to keep himself in shape and on the field and seeing all the experts he can. Its not like hes gone Panda and just let himself go gaining 100 pounds eating his way out of the league.
Hopefully it wont have to much of an impact on his career, but if it does its not something he has any control over
Infield is harder than outfield for sure given the missiles that can be hit at you. They're generally fairly different skill sets though. I think everyone would agree catcher is the one by far hardest position. Jeters lack of speed and range wouldnt allow him to play in the OF. The point with Jeter was just that he was terrible at his position. The Yankees should have moved him to 3rd or 2nd and left Arod at SS. Would it have won another championship probably not, but it would have given them their best chance. Most of Jeters highlight defensive plays are pretty routine things he just made look hard
Injuries do impact players legacies. Rightfully so.
No need to elaborate, many examples of players who couldn't stay on the field and didn't get the recognition they "deserved".
If Trout's career is over, or his productivity falls off dramatically because of it, that would be a shame.
Let's hope he can come back!
Injuries and genetic situations are different though and should be viewed differently. There are players that cant stay healthy, some get to muscle bound, others are very talented but lazy and so on. Genetic issues that cant be controlled are different and should be viewed differently.
Agreed that hopefully its not much of an issue, but if it is it shouldnt change the legacy
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Otahni all time great superstud thats very underappreciated. Elite hitter thats also an ace on the mound.
Trout sure isn’t the type to come through under pressure 😗
Well the good thing is he won’t ever be playing in the mlb postseason again, and he can be replaced for the next wbc.
Betts should have given Bobby a chance to swipe a bag.
Then trout would have only made the second out.
Othani thows 100 when he wants to with multiple pitches. Blaming Trout okay I guess if you want too
Basebal21, the thing is, you, Mr Robinson and many other experts keep saying Mikey is one of the greatest of all time. So in that case he should be held to a higher standard. He just doesn’t get the job done when his team really needs him. Yes Betts killed them with the double play but if trout is the great one why can’t he pick up the team with a double or home run.
Show us you deserve all the accolades Mikey!
I say hes one of the greatest of all time because he is. The greatest hitters ever fail 7 out of 10 tiimes. Othani is an ace for a reason. Its an unrealistic expectation to expect a hitter to always do something. Thats just not how baseball works
Can everyone agree he will achieve HOF status? Hard to imagine not unless he gets caught up in something bad...Darryl Strawberry, Pete Rose, or Sosa style
I would say is degenerative condition could impact his legacy, all according to how quickly it progresses. case in point is Albert Belle. He was a monster for 9 or 10 seasons, then was out of the league by age 33 because of a degenerative hip condition. He would certainly have put together a HOF resume had he been able to get a few more uninjured seasons under his belt. As it stands, he will never make it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
That is your stance with a few others here, and your right or choice. Do you hold Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays to that same standard? I am curious if you remove all of them from your baseball elite(especially Ted Williams).
sure. I didnt look for all of them, but I think old Teddy Ballgame did just fine when it was all on the line.
in extra innings, 117 at bats, ops of 1.213
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Williams never won and the one time he got there he was abysmal. The exact same as Trout.
@craig44
The stance you guys use to knock down Trout's greatness would also elevate Derek Jeter to the greatest baseball player since 1969. Jeter has no peer. His combination of Batting average, total hits, championships won, and ultra big shining moments in the post season is unrivaled. That would make Jeter the absolute best player of the last few generations.