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Will it Cross? NGC 1894-O Morgan
ProofCollection
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Picked up this coin recently and I will be submitting it for crossover at the Money Show this weekend. I will specify any grade MS60 or better. I'll take guesses on if and where it will cross and post the result in a few months.
I think MS61 is an accurate grade but PCGS may take another point off for the 2 major hits on the face: the eye and in front of the ear and the scratches above the date on the obverse. The strike looks OK. The fields are pretty dang good for an MS61 IMO. The reverse has a significant gash over ONE and a few decent dings on the eagle's breast but again, the fields aren't too bad. Luster is not great but not bad either, maybe 4/10.
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👎 doesn’t look unc. to me.
Gonna guess no. Looks wiped/cleaned in your pics.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Also think AU58 is best shot. Some lines seem on holder on last photo but looks like it circulated.
Is that a scratch on the reverse from “F” in the word ‘of’ all the way down near the the “O” in ‘dollar’?
This coin should bodybag for several reasons. Don’t waste money submitting this thing again, unless you’re gonna use NGC’s guarantee service and let them downgrade it to buy it back.
FWIW, here's my AU58/CAC copy of this coin, for comparison; I agree that it's not clear that your coin is uncirculated--it seems to have more luster than mine does, but the eagle's chest doesn't show much in the way of feathers:
I have no idea if PCGS will decide to cross it on that given day, but I strongly agree that if you were to try, you'd have a much better shot at 58 minimum. I highly doubt it would cross at 61. Im sort of curious why you would accept a downgrade with this coin though, looking at the price guides it appears that it would fetch much more as a N61 than a P58 or P60, of course its your money and you're free to do as you wish.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
These are known for poor strikes but I see it as an AU58. I think most of the hairlines look to be on the holder though.
based on that last pic, im going to say it wont cross.
Yes, but it's only noticeable from different angles and very slight at the F and only pronounced on the wing.
Yes, from what I can tell all of the hairlines are on the holder. While I know we might disparage NGC some times, I doubt they overlooked wear and graded MS if it should be AU.
What are you seeing in the picture that would cause you to say that?
This MS61 Trueview looks comparable in a lot of ways with respect to strike and number and significance of marks..
Cert: 39861256
PCGS is not going to cross your coin. In the last 30 days only 29% success rate for cross over attempts. With all due respect save your time and $$$. I am only buying NGC coins that have CAC green beans. I know they are guaranteed to get crossed into a CAC slab once they are up and running later this year.
Here's my NGC AU53, although more obvious circulation wear & reduced luster, guess it had a strong strike for the mintage on both obv & rev.
The vertical lines in the area circled in red look like its been hairlined from something. In my experience, pcgs would detail it for that, so I dont think it will cross.
Those are on the slab.
You can't use the success rate as a guide. How many were willing to accept a downgrade? How many were from NGC vs. some other TPG?
While the fees are not nothing, they are minimal for the value a PCGS holder and proper Trueview will bring this coin, IMO.
I am in the would not cross camp. Why because although as mentioned O mint Morgan's are often weakly struck the example posted looks to have more than just a weak strike especially on the reverse.
K
@ProofCollection your best strategy would have been to have the patience to find a nice PCGS coin in MS 60 or 61 and paid market price. Obviously being in a PCGS holder means a great deal to you. Let us know how you fare.
PCGS has been a little tough with me lately. Not long ago I bought a pair of NGC graded liberty seated halves at MS62 and MS61. I paid solid AU58 money for them both, and intended on crossing them at a minimum of AU58. I hoped they would come back as MS, but they both came back at 58. Either way, I really enjoy both of them for my type set!
NGC MS62 -> PCGS AU58 CAC
NGC MS61 -> PCGS AU58
I’m not convinced the hairlines are on the holder. I also see it as an AU details coin that won’t cross. I hope I am wrong.
But sometimes a deal presents itself that makes this kind of acquisition worth taking the risk compared to the low risk pay-through-the-nose for a perfect coin approach
In this case I don't expect to lose much if it comes back DNC and I re-sell it as-is, and if it comes back MS60 I expect have a little bit of a profit and MS61 would be a very nice profit.
I will post the results. I figured either way the forum would find this interesting.
Since you have the coin in hand, ill ignore that picture and change my answer from "it wont cross" to "im not optimistic it will cross". The shape of the scratches above the date also bother me.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
I would say no, and I'm not even sure it would receive a straight grade, for reasons stated. It also looks like it was dipped. However, that is a tough coin in high grade.
Tom
Looks 58.
58
I attempted to cross an NGC AU50 1889-CC; they tend to be much more conservative on the rarer date MM. The result was DNC.
IMO, save your money but what the heck do I know.
This was my nearly not so AU50 per PCGS. Crappy photos courtesy of NGC that doesn't do the coin much justice:
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Why are you convinced that PCGS 60 is better than NGC 61 for resale purposes? Im looking through the comps, and the most recent prices would indicate otherwise.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
It depends on which set of photos is more accurate! Based on the first set (and assuming the odd marks above the 9 are not graffiti) I think it may cross. Much less likely based on the second set, which makes it look lightly circulated and dipped.
If you look at all of the replies on this thread, it's clear that most people question or do not believe the current MS61 grade based on the photos I provided. A PCGS 60 in a brand new holder with trueview photos I believe would be able to bring true MS60 or even 61 money vs. heavily discounted MS61 money. BTW, the PCGS guide prices for the low MS 1894-O's is not very accurate. And in general (though plenty of exceptions) I do believe the PCGS holders bring more money than NGC.
Good luck, keep us posted. Anyway get it out of that scratchy holder, can not see anyone buying as a 61 from photos without some trick photography to remove. Taken hundreds of photos of all types of slabs and while some deeper scratches come thru in the photo, never as prominent as your photos, confusing the slab with the coin.
The PCGS forum is always going to be more critical than the general public, and we were opining that we just don't think it would cross at 61. Grading is subjective, and I agree that a new PCGS holder is likely to bring more than an old NGC brown line, but only if we're talking about coins of the same grade. Also, I never referenced the price guide values, those are mostly irrelevant. Your 3 most recent auction comps for NGC 61 are $1,800 (8/22) , $2,640 (7/22) and $1,920 (12/21) - none of which were CAC and one is an old brown line holder, like yours.
The three most recent comps for PCGS 60, though not quite as recent, are $1,602 (5/21), $1,110 (6/20), and $1,140 (6/18). If most people don't think it would cross at 61, then they're not going to pay 61 money for a non-CAC in a 60 holder regardless of the true view. I understand you may have made a decision that I'm not trying to talk you out of, but I think it's very unlikely that you would come out ahead if the coin crossed at 60. In any case, good luck and I hope that you get the desired result you're hoping for. If I were in your shoes I would probably send it to GC, let her rip at $1 and be done with it.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Proofcollection, getting an ms60 grade on any coin is very difficult. That exact number is not given out often, and your coin has muted mint luster. It’s not going to get ms60 at pcgs. You’ve gotta have luster with tons of bag marks, and your coin doesn’t fix this criteria.
I thought this was common knowledge, but maybe not. MS61 grades at NGC are borderline equivalent to a details coin. That grade (in my experience) is for a coin with unc features, but has a problem that NGC thinks is somewhat forgivable (like a scratch, or wipe, or rim ding). Not every unc problem coin gets a details holder at NGC, and ms61 is a result of that. First thing you do when you see an ms61 NGC holder is leave it alone. Don’t buy those coins.
The coin you currently have is in its coffin holder, sell it and buy a better quality coin for the grade. You’re gonna start chasing good money after bad, which is a recipe for disaster on this coin.
Just based on the pictures, I would sell the coin and buy one I liked in the slab I prefer. Will be interested in the results of your submission. Cheers, RickO
After reading all that would keep as is. Or if trying cross at least specify minimum grade (MS61) on submittal form. Appears average quality as 61’s go. Your 2nd photo can’t even hardly see cheek mark.
A costly drop in MV from holder game not on my menu nor how I play the game anyway. AU 58 CPG $936. An unacceptable hit for me.
CPG for MS 61 $2500. CDN bid $2000. Shop it around bourse get a feel for what they would offer. Or just keep it.
From CDN - I see your piece sold on Heratige 02/19/23 for $1860. Me - if in it at that would be looking for $2250 from my table at show. That way I make a few bucks they get a nice deal.
You said “ But sometimes a deal presents itself that makes this kind of acquisition worth taking the risk compared to the low risk pay-through-the-nose for a perfect coin approach”. That should have been a clue. The guy you bought it from decided presenting you that deal was the best he was going to do and I’m betting was glad to see it go.
If we look at the CDN auc history going 10 auc back the low was $1800 the high was $2640. The op piece went for $1860. Was that auc buyer the op or the one that sold it to him? CDN bid $2000. Was auc buyer experienced dealer who flipped it at bid plus 5 or 10 pct? Or who knows even more. Let’s say he flipped it at bid plus 10 pct - bingo the profit would pay table fee at a lot of shows. Or for that matter a months food & dining bill. That dealer knew he was not going to get moon money for it but some smash mouth ball with a wrecking ball back would get some good yardage.
This coin is in it’s final holder. Looks like a technical 58 and may get market graded to 55 due to hits on eagle’s breast or possible light hairlining.
I see an AU coin - looks like big breaks in luster to me rather than just muted luster.
Sell it as-is and buy what you want.
One suggestion - take it one of the Meet the Expert sessions that PCGS hosts at the major shows. You’ll get some free advice after an in hand examination from a professional.
Coins in the 60-62 range are usually not good candidates to cross. The chance of a down-grade or even a body bag are serious.
My own preference is material MS64 or higher.
No.
Don't even waste the money attempting a cross with this coin. Instead, sell it and the money and the saved money in grading fees and just buy one in a PCGS holder.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I like 124Spider's coin-
Excellent look- not MS- but it has the light circulated look that speaks volumes over coins that have been enhanced in an effort to obtain a higher grade. This coin is the takeaway from this thread
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I'm a little surprised by the self-confidence with which views are being expressed on this thread. It's exceptionally difficult to differentiate an AU from a low grade MS Morgan from a photo. Based on the first set of photos, it's a plausible low grade MS coin.
Here is a collage showing the OP's coin along with three coins that our host judged to be MS (two 61s and one 60):
Hard to judge from a photo -- but I don't think the OP coin is an outlier.
None of those other 3 morgans you cropped and shared has what I call "dead cheek" where the cheek shows up black in pics rather than white. It's indicative of great disruption of metal flow there, AKA a cleaning.
Also NGC was kind of bad during that generation of holder, they let way too much go.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Let’s say a normal version of this coin (your other pictures in the collage) is worth ~$2,000 in au58-ms62, you think the OP coin falls under that same category, and you’d feel comfortable buying this coin for approximately that amount?
The difference in the group of coins isn’t the number of hits on the cheek, it’s the scratch/cleaning. This is bigger than splitting hairs on grades between an au58+ and ms60.
All I’m saying is if I saw this coin in a dealers case fully priced, I’d immediately walk away without looking at anything else.
I do think that GTG posts on this forum tend to get hammered by readers (unless they are forum celebrities!), so don't get too upset.
That having been said, at least from the pictures, that cheek on Lib is not what I would want to see on an Unc. coin, and bothers me more than the stray mark or so that has been pointed out on previous posts. This dull area goes down over the lower jaw and even on to the neck and IMHO shows loss of lustre such as occurs with a wipe (or two).
I have frequently and unfortunately seen these to end up "AU Cleaned" at our host.
But here's to hoping if you do send it in for the crossover that they are kind to you....
Well, just Love coins, period.
To be fair, this isn’t a typical GTG. OP asked a specific question to elicit critical feedback.
If coin is indeed as you described, here’s to hoping our hosts uphold their standards and reject the cross.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Looks more au than 61 to me 🤷♂️
Personally I like semi key dates lightly circulated and original. MS 61 looks legit without having in hand though I just don't like the marks and grinds.
A balance of positive and negative would be near impossible in any forum, so I appreciate that the comments are mostly critical. I have learned things and things have been pointed out that I have not noticed. I am not here for compliments. This forum would be useless if it was all cheerleading and rose colored glasses. I have enough experience with PCGS to know to not have high expectations. The cost of $40 + a fraction of the return shipping is maybe 2% of the coin's value. I think the risk/reward is acceptable and if nothing else, it is cheap tuition.
That said, the submission is in. As stated above I specified minimum grade of MS60. It will come back in one of 4 ways: Untouched (DNC), MS60, MS61, or MS62. I will post the result.
Now for extra forum fun I might as well mention that I also submitted my PCGS 1894-P MS60 for regrade. This coin looks much better in hand than how it scans. In person, the toning around the rim is does not stand out like it does in the scans. The luster is nice I would rate at 7/10, and the strike is pretty decent for this date/mm. When most MS60's look really beat up, this one looks clearly under graded IMO, and I will be disappointed if I do not get at least a + or full point upgrade.
Your pcgs 1894-O coin is interesting. I don’t think ms60+ is a grade that exists, so it would have to jump to ms61 to upgrade. The reverse appears to be overly worn down, giving it the ms60 grade. But, I think a restoration could even out the odd toning and discoloration, and possibly allow this coin to jump to ms62. The pictures are somewhat tough to fully judge what’s going on, but this coin has more potential than the NGC coin.
Does look better than 60. Good luck!
Sorry, but your 1894-P has schmutz all over the obverse and reverse. If you blow it up, you can see that it breaks up by the date and between some of the stars and the rim, where you can see original surfaces. Somebody was covering something.