Half Dime experts, I've got a question
![UncleDano](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/userpics/ZFQP63NWIN6E/nGSAKYKGUV72T.jpg)
Have 1862 half dime Breen 3105 (slanted date), ANACS ms60, stated as "rare" in book. But how rare is it really?
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Best Answers
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yosclimber Posts: 4,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't have my copy of Breen's Encyclopedia handy,
so I don't know if he included a photo or a longer description than "slanted date".
But I have studied 1862 and the above photo array shows the different date positions I found in 2019.
There are 2 which would qualify as a "slanted date" (uphill in this case).
V-4 was in Valentine's book as "Open date, starting low and running upward."
V-12 was not in Valentine's book and also is uphill.
So I don't know if Breen-3105 refers to V-4 or V-12.
I know of 3 examples of V-4, and 3 of V-12.
Steve Crain had an example of each in his collection.
However, I have not yet classified all the auction photos to determine the full counts and estimate the rarity of the different 1862 die marriages.
So I don't have an accurate answer for you at present.It's a good question, though.
Some of Breen's rarity estimates are out of date.
One reason is that when a coin book is published that says something is rare, people will then look for it and more examples will be found.
The true rarity has not changed, but the observed counts have changed, due to selective searching.
Breen also lived in a time before there were hundreds of online auction photos that can be checked to get counts.If you are interested in seated half dime varieties, you might want to check out this thread from 2020:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1035720/top-100-seated-half-dime-varieties-list-and-112-page-pdf6 -
yosclimber Posts: 4,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
Thank you @lilolme!
So the Breen-3105 is the V-4.
His plate photo is a match as well (using both the slope and the horizontal date position).I don't think it is "Ex. rare", given that I found 3 examples awhile back without trying hard.
it is also the case that clash marks did not force the discard of obverse dies for half dimes.
They were usually still used after clashing, often getting more clashes.
And sometimes they were lapped to remove the clash marks.2 -
yosclimber Posts: 4,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
It was accurate in describing and referencing this variety. Just the rarity was off.
One problem for Seated Half Dime varieties in slabs is that Valentine 1931 still has the most varieties of any published source,
but it is hard to use because the plate photos are unclear.
So sometimes ANACS would use Breen numbers in their slab labels.1 -
ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
@UncleDano ... Welcome aboard. You have a wealth of information in the answers above... Good luck collecting... Cheers, RickO
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Answers
@UncleDano Welcome aboard. I don't know the answer , but @yosclimber might.
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@yosclimber I don't have my copy of Breen's Encyclopedia handy,
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/l1/h2kd3ki0yobf.jpg)
so I don't know if he included a photo or a longer description than "slanted date".
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Interesting varieties. I will have to check my holdings for examples of the slanted date varieties. Also, I can now start looking in dealers' junk boxes for an 1862-s half dime that should not exist.![;) ;)](https://forums.collectors.com/resources/emoji/wink.png)
It always intrigues me to hear about a mint receiving dies and not using them, particularly for San Francisco and Carson City for who the dies had to travel plenty of extra miles. Would they even have used them for assay coins?
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Assay coins were only needed if precious metal coins had been struck for circulation. No coinage, no assay coins.
There was little demand for the Half Dime out west before the Civil War. I suspect that the San Francisco Mint only began striking them as an accommodation for the West Coast Post Offices, which needed to make change for stamps.
Here is an amusing chapter from Mark Twain's book "Roughing It," published in 1872 but about Twain's life out west in the 1860's. In it Half Dimes are beneath contempt.
https://www.mtwain.com/roughing_it/18.html
Breen's Encyclopedia is a minefield of inaccurate/false information - I would never recommend it as a resource for a new collector. For any given coin series, there are generally books available by specialist authors that are written to a much higher standard than Breen.
Being that far off about the rarity can be of real consequence, however. If a coin is described as extremely rare, but is really not, the reader is misled (potentially into overpaying for common varieties). That is the problem when you have a minefield of inaccurate information - if you're just starting out, you don't know where all the mines are buried.![;) ;)](https://forums.collectors.com/resources/emoji/wink.png)
Yes, this coin definitely has the extreme sloping like the V-4 or V12 with clash marks above date. But also shows slight doubling of the date on the 1 & 8, as shown in the photo of the V-7.
I bought this coin off a "bid board" in a local coin shop in the '80's. I did not know of its variety until I got it back from ANACS. I have always been attracted to this minuscule coin. Thanks to all for the great feedback of information and photos.
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Here is and update on this half dime:
Sent the 1862 slant date to NGC along with a 1873 S half Dime which is a breen 3138. Both were sent to be variety certified and both came back with no Breen variety noted on the holder.
I called NGC to verify they were checked for variety and was told they were but there was not enough evidence for any variety.
So what's the problem with NGC these days? Don't they know varieties any more?
Here are photos of the 1862, second photo shows the clash above date the best:
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Here is the 1873 S Breen 3138 photos:
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Sucks about the NGC labeling but they're still cool half dimes![;) ;)](https://forums.collectors.com/resources/emoji/wink.png)
Sometimes it is a real gamble when you send to any Certification company, depending on who gets your lot of coins.
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Thank you for sharing your photos.
[Edited:]
Your 1862 is a V-12 . [See my later post]
Your 1873-s is a V-1.
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/3i/y1tydwo8h5l2.jpg)
I recognize it easily from the "bar on arm", although I'm a half dime specialist,
and Valentine did not mention it in his description.
The arm bar is clear in the Valentine first edition plate, though (above).
NGC is quite good at identifying varieties as far as I've seen.
However, they use a limited set of published sources for attributing seated half dime varieties:
https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/what-is-a-variety/
https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/half-dimes/seated-liberty-half-dimes-1837-1873/?page=1
These 2 sources (VP and FS) do not list many Breen varieties, or the 1862 V-12 or 1873-s V-1.
Mostly they list RPDs, DDOs and DDRs, which are good for modern coins,
but not so great for seated half dimes.
Although it helps their process to limit the number of varieties they attribute,
especially when there are no comprehensive published references at present for seated half dimes
like there are for other series.
I'd say these are not "major" varieties, in the sense of not being in the "Top 100" list I linked earlier.
I do think they are "good" varieties, though.
The 1873-s V-1 "arm bar" makes my top 150. (It is an R-3, by the way).
I'm not sure the 1862 slanted date would make my top 200, but some people like this type of variety.
Clashes are common in this series, and they don't always get a separate "major die state" page in my work.
That's out of about 600 die pairs and major die states for seated half dimes.
Hopefully in the next couple of years, I'll finish making the PDFs by date,
and there will be a comprehensive free online seated half dime variety reference,
like there is for seated dimes.
If you are determined to get something on the slabs which identify these varieties,
you could probably get a sticker from varslab.com, run by our own @messydesk :
https://www.varslab.com/
Although they don't specifically list seated half dimes, they are flexible and use a wider set of sources.
yosclimber, thank you so much for your expertise and comments.
Yes, I did look at the VarietyPlus listings and did not see any Breen or Valentine listings, but I thought their experts would have other references - guess not.
I'm thinking I really don't need to have the varieties noted on the holders, because I know what they are, but it is nice to have it there, so any future buyer knows it has been certified.
I wonder how good PCGS is on varieties? Might try them next time.
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
I recall for PCGS Variety Attribution, it needs to have a separate PCGS Coin Number.
I see only one PCGS Coin Number for 1862 (nothing under "Related Coins and Varieties").
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1862-h10c/4381
Same for 1873-s:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1873-s-h10c/4405
Compare that with 1858, where PCGS recognizes 2 varieties in addition to the "normal":
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-h10c-over-inverted-date/4368
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-h10c-rpd-fs-301-002/38740
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-h10c/4367
P.S. If you want to see more online about seated half dime varieties, check the Steve Crain Reference Collection on the Newman Numismatic Portal:
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/a4/b9i08a59onwy.jpg)
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/i9/mkk4e7ns6p7i.jpg)
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/so/h7fwz1295swn.jpg)
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/imagecollection/514182
Steve knew the 1873-s V-1, and he often marked the relevant pick up points on his holders.
Steve had a V-4, and he also had a V-12 which he did not designate with a V-number
except to say "UPHILL DATE, NOT V4":
So he gets credited with discovering it.
The V-12 number is something I designated in 2019 when I looked for as many
different 1862 date positions as I could find.
Great references and photos - thanks for posting these.
Yes, I will check out the Newman portal, sounds great!
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Actually I looked at this again, and I was wrong.
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/lp/16mzsucai08p.jpg)
Your coin is a V-12.
Here is its date position.
I had misread my earlier comments. I had said the Breen plate matches the V-4 date position.
But I had not checked the date position of your coin until just now.
Thanks for this information. So does V-12 cover the date position as well as the extent of the clash mark?
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
V-12 is supposed to be the die pair.
Really at present it is just the date position, as I have not found any markers to identify the reverse.
Identifying Philadelphia reverses can be difficult, since there is no mint mark position to help out.
Of the 6 examples of V-12 that I have identified at the moment, yours is the only one with obvious clash marks.
So yours might end up being called V-12a to designate the later die state.
Yours is the highest graded at present.
There are quite a few 1862 photos that I have not classified to date position or V- number yet.
So probably some more will turn up when I finish classifying all the photos.
VERY educational ... here is another example ... v8?
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Wow, beautiful coin!
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
@calgolddiver,
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/r2/ogez6dysfwpd.jpg)
Your pretty half dime is a V-6.
Date position
After I checked the date position, I noticed that I had previously attributed your coin as a V-6
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/di/lz9dbkyiuuvm.jpg)
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/u4/a2y15emvl8gu.jpg)
when I saved the photos you posted of it in June 2020!
There is a helpful die marker on the V-6 reverse.
Here's your June 2020 photo which shows this die marker.
So this confirms it.
The V-8 date position is very close to the V-6.
It is somewhat of a pain to draw the vertical line from the pendant to the gap between the dentils to distinguish the two,
but I can do it fairly easily because I've done it so many times.
@yosclimber THANK YOU !!!
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Thank you. PCGS 66
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Wow, what a great adventure, and how amazing is it to have so many varieties and details about a single date of this diminutive coin.
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.
Another good variety from 1862 is the V-7.
It has a good RPD and some fairly bold reverse cracks, along with heavy clashing.
You can see what @MrHalfDime wrote about it in 2009:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/8178043#Comment_8178043
He called it V-5, although it does not have the V-5 date position as shown in Valentine's plate.
Very interesting, a lot going on with this one. Good thread from 2009, with additional insight into rarity and population.
To me it is just amazing that they can even make dies for such a miniscule coin.
Collector of what ever looks good to me today.