Question on grading Morgans

[Deleted User]

I love collecting WLH but I keep running into Morgan dollars along with other types.
Family and friends have them. Now that they know I collect coins they basically give them to me at bullion prices.
I'm going to visit an Aunt tomorrow who has a half dozen gold coins.
I'll be taking them home with me. They have been passed on for generations and have not been exposed to any market place blunders. Like cleaning etc
Just fresh coins.
The reason for all these details would be as an example when coming across a beautiful well kept Morgan that is so original.
Seeing frost on the coin that has rub marks not bag marks on it, how does that affect the grade?
Do graders look beyond the frost into the surface for hits?
This makes me think that original frost should be removed to expose a clean surface but I wouldn't want to do this.
Is this common practice? (removing frost)

rte592

Frost as in toning?
Any company that removes anything then grades would be considered conservation.

Cleaning if someone else did it.

gumby1234

Don't remove frost from your Morgans. Also just because coins have been in a family for generations does not mean that they haven't been cleaned.

[Deleted User]

@gumby1234 said:
Don't remove frost from your Morgans. Also just because coins have been in a family for generations does not mean that they haven't been cleaned.

I agree with you.
Do you agree with me when I say that because they have been in the family for generations it doesn't mean that they have been cleaned?
I've seen them. They look pretty good.
I am still kind of green so I can easily fool myself. That why I will send them in for grading.

[Deleted User]

@rte592 said:
Frost as in toning?
Any company that removes anything then grades would be considered conservation.

Cleaning if someone else did it.

No frost as in frost.
I like most toning so I wouldn't remove it. I should say have it removed. I don't play with chemicals.

lilolme

Could maybe start with this video.

And more at:

https://www.youtube.com/user/PCGSVideo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Of5MfwRbMs

[Deleted User]

I've watched that video several times. It's a great resource. Problem with that video is that Morgan Dollars vary from year to year. Plus the VAM situation comes into play.
It is a very well done video clear and easy to understand.

gumby1234

I don't agree that because they have been in the family for generations it doesn't mean that they have been cleaned. I think theres a big possibility that they may have been cleaned at some point. I hope they weren't, but chances are granny or somebody else shined em up or wiped them.

jmlanzaf

@gumby1234 said:
I don't agree that because they have been in the family for generations it doesn't mean that they have been cleaned. I think theres a big possibility that they may have been cleaned at some point. I hope they weren't, but chances are granny or somebody else shined em up or wiped them.

I don't know that it is a "big possibility ". Why would it be any bigger than any other Morgans in the marketplace?

To the OP, they could have even be cleaned before entering your family. 75% of the fake coins I see have been in a collection for decades. I laugh whenever someone tells me that they are sure their coins are good because they've been in Dad's collection for years.

gumby1234

@jmlanzaf because as you most likely know people like shiny things and many many non numismatists clean their coins.

[Deleted User]

@gumby1234 said:
I don't agree that because they have been in the family for generations it doesn't mean that they have been cleaned. I think theres a big possibility that they may have been cleaned at some point. I hope they weren't, but chances are granny or somebody else shined em up or wiped them.

I'd prefer to leave any comments about my Grandmother out of this thread please. She was not brought up by me and I think it's uncalled for by you to do so.
I would not even consider saying anything derogatory or hint at anything derogatory about anyone's family members on this forum
My Grandmother has long since left this world and I had all the respect in the world for her. To portray her as an idiot as you hinted shining coins was not very nice.
I really do not appreciate your comment.
Can you please tell me what brought that kind of comment forward from your thinking?

gumby1234

There was nothing derogatory said. I didn't say anybody was an idiot. People back in the day were in the habit of cleaning coins. People equate shiny and bright with being more valuable. Its why finding older coins that haven't been cleaned at all is very hard.

[Deleted User]

Sir or Madame I don't t know you. You specifically mentioned my Grandmother or as you put it "chances are granny or someone shined them up"?
I don't understand this.
Why would you say that to me. I have thick skin but I will not tolerate anyone anytime bring the people in my life into this hobby to be slighted.
I wouldn't even consider doing this to you.

gumby1234

There was no slight towards anyone. There was no ill intent towards anyone. People cleaned coins for ages thats the point. Somebody probably cleaned them is the point. Don't get so offended so easily. I said nothing bad about anyone.

TomB

I don't believe @gumby1234 meant any ill will toward anyone with his/her comments. The term "granny" was used as a generic placeholder or person who would have had access to the coins years ago and who might have treated them as folks often treated coins years ago. That is, they cleaned them. We live in a numismatic world today where cleaning is frowned upon and avoided by most educated collectors and dealers as much as possible, but in decades past it was commonplace to clean coins. In fact, if you look at old coin magazines or periodicals you can find advice on how to clean coins in your own kitchen, can find ads for cleaning agents that we would avoid today and would find that the numismatic literature was not viewing cleaning as abhorrent. Even museums cleaned coins.

In short, mentioning that someone in the chain of ownership or access might have cleaned coins in the past is not calling them an idiot or questioning their integrity, moral aptitude or assuming they were charlatans. It was the age they lived in and the methods that were accepted.

TomB

As for the gold, it may very well be lightly circulated pieces and these show circulation hairlines really, really well. At first glance these can appear to be hairlined up from prior cleaning attempts, but in reality much of this appearance is simply due to the reflective nature of gold and its resistance to toning.

Images and an inventory of the gold would be really cool to see and we might be able to help you with what you and your family have. Good luck!

jmlanzaf

@Watchtower said:
Sir or Madame I don't t know you. You specifically mentioned my Grandmother or as you put it "chances are granny or someone shined them up"?
I don't understand this.
Why would you say that to me. I have thick skin but I will not tolerate anyone anytime bring the people in my life into this hobby to be slighted.
I wouldn't even consider doing this to you.

It was very common fo coin collectors to polish silver coins. That's why there are very few bust coins that haven't been cleaned.
Hec was a bit flip, but it's not a insulting as you are taking it. Respectfully.

jmlanzaf

@gumby1234 said:
@jmlanzaf because as you most likely know people like shiny things and many many non numismatists clean their coins.

Yes. As did many numismatists. But most coins in the market were in someone's family at one time. I just don't think the odds are any higher here than they would be for any other accumulation.

2windy2fish

Before proceeding with any course of action,please post photos here! The knowledgeable members here will advise as to the best course of action

lilolme

@Watchtower said:
I've watched that video several times. It's a great resource. Problem with that video is that Morgan Dollars vary from year to year. Plus the VAM situation comes into play.
It is a very well done video clear and easy to understand.

The video is about surface preservation as they state or contact marks in this case. It does not sound like you are understanding contact marks. Contact marks can be bag marks or rub as you noted in the OP. They can be nicks, ticks, frost/luster breaks, reed marks, gouge, scuffs, light scratch, hit, cut, slide, wipe or most any other method of contact with the coin surface. These contact marks (most) all count against the coin in grading but to varying degrees due to severity (size and depth) and location. Removing frost as you noted in the OP would either be a contact mark or a dipped out or cleaned (contact mark) coin which would count against the coin in grading. It would not matter what the date or MM was or the VAM as the contact marks would count against the coin in grading. Now the date and MM might have different typical strike or luster but he contact marks still count against it.

ricko

Any mark, abrasion, rub, stain etc., on the surface of the coin, will count in grading. Cheers, RickO

logger7

All the grading services offer conservation, but only if it will help the coins. With PCGS and NGC the process is somewhat involved in sending the coins in wheras Anacs and ICG offer a per coin or per invoice option if the coins would be helped gradewise in doing so. Acetone dips are sometimes useful or harmless in pulling off problem material, but original surfaces and dirt are desireable with many coins.