Lincoln token, 1864 over 1856 large cent - anyone know the history behind it?

Lakesammman

Cleaning out a few things and came across this piece. Anyone familiar with it??

coinsarefun

Yowsers! Don’t know but love and want that one

DCW

I'm pretty sure these were struck in the 20th century.

Lakesammman

Perhaps - just looking for more info on the "issue", rarity, history, etc.

DCW

The die still exists in private hands and has been used for various tokens, including (I presume) these overstrikes on large cents.

ricko

Nice converted coin.... significant Civil War year.. I believe this is not a period piece, but an interesting curio. Cheers, RickO

Lakesammman

Great - thanks for letting me know about the dies!

DCW

I think @BillJones may actually own this die.

Perhaps he will comment shortly

TPRC

This is one of the coolest threads I've read. Great info.

BillJones

@DCW said:
I think @BillJones may actually own this die.

Perhaps he will comment shortly

Yes, I own it.

During this period, many restrikes were made of political tokens that had been issued in previous elections. Coin collecting got a big boost when the large cent was discontinued in 1857. In those early years, a rare token or medal was just as highly prized and valuable as a coin. If the dies were left restrikes were made, often in a nicer format than the original token.

For example. Here is an original 1852 Winfield Scott campaign medalet in white metal.

Here is a restrike, made circa 1860 in bronze. It's more nicely made in better metal, but it's not an original piece.

The mintages on the restrikes were advertised to be very small, something like 10 to 25 pieces. According to DeWitt, the mintage on the Scott piece I pictured above was "25 pieces in copper."

The Lincoln piece that was struck over a large cent was a sort of novelty item. The die maker was Key in Philadelphia.

Zoins

There are a few uniface pieces done with the Fuld-131 die including large cents, Civil War Tokens, and others.

A few people have called the uniface pieces restrikes, but I haven't seen any evidence for this. The restrike story is mentioned by @SteveHayden so he may have more info. It would be great if some more information was available on these, such as the restriker's name (owner and minter), date appeared, mintages, etc.

The story seems to be that Steve Tanenbaum owned the Fuld-131 die, and sometime between Tanenbaum's ownership and Steve Hayden's 2011 sale, there was an owner of the die that had a number of uniface restrikes made. I'm not sure how much of this is speculation as I haven't seen any supporting information such as owners, minters, numbers/types struck, etc.

Here are a couple of other uniface strikes I've seen.

Uniface overstrike on NY630BM-1a token

Uniface Brass

DCW

@Zoins said:
Uniface overstrike on NY630BM-1a token

The more I see this die, the more convinced I am that it was William H Key that produced the so called "Merriam" pattern $3 gold:
The die work is convincingly similar, and it was probably misattributed to Merriam.

Zoins

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:
Uniface overstrike on NY630BM-1a token

The more I see this die, the more convinced I am that it was William H Key that produced the so called "Merriam" pattern $3 gold:
The die work is convincingly similar, and it was probably misattributed to Merriam.

This is an interesting piece. Both Key and Merriam added their names to their dies. How common is it for either to make a such die without their name on it?

DCW

@Zoins
Fairly common.
You don't see Key's signature on the Lincoln die, right? Merriam did a good number of pieces without signature especially early pieces. But also the C.F. Tuttle and Dunn & Co CWTs

Edited to clarify in bold text

Zoins

@DCW said:
@Zoins
Fairly common.
You don't see Key's signature on the Lincoln die, right? Merriam did a good number of pieces with signature especially early pieces. But also the C.F. Tuttle and Dunn & Co CWTs

That's a good point. I wonder how Fuld-131 is attributed to Key.

Zoins

Here's another one on a large cent, 1851 this time:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1864-abraham-lincoln-civil-war-token-4543490719

DCW

Here's a patriotic token struck with Fuld 131 in 1864:
And here is a large cent that was struck by two separate obverse Lincoln dies in the 19th Century. We know this, because it came out of the Zabriskie Collection which was intact until 1990:

DCW

@Zoins
You can own one right now on eBay for the princely sum of $6500!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195567466294?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3laq3cLvSXm&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=MEplcFW_Twi&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
These things are cool, but they are a little misleading to people that don't understand they are not period pieces.

Zoins

@DCW said:
Here's a patriotic token struck with Fuld 131 in 1864:
And here is a large cent that was struck by two separate obverse Lincoln dies in the 19th Century. We know this, because it came out of the Zabriskie Collection which was intact until 1990:

Very nice. Fuld-129 and Fuld-130 are also attributed to F.C. Key & Sons.

I'm curious how the attribution was done, and who did it.

Zoins

@DCW said:
@Zoins
You can own one right now on eBay for the princely sum of $6500!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195567466294
These things are cool, but they are a little misleading to people that don't understand they are not period pieces.

It's cool to see another one, and I agree it looks pricey.

I'm wondering what is the reasoning for saying these are not period pieces? I'm not saying these are period pieces, however when this comes up, I've seen others say these aren't period pieces, but not provide supporting information for the conclusion. What convinces you these are not period pieces?

Lakesammman

Bill - have you made any pieces using this die??