What defines the GOAT acronym?
doubledragon
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I'm starting this thread at the suggestion of @Maywood. This question is directed to the Tom Brady GOAT base, what defines the GOAT acronym, what qualifications must one have?
1
doubledragon
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This thread was started as a suggestion, please do not take any hostilities out on me, I personally feel that Tom Brady is the GOAT, his qualifications speak for themselves. My job on this thread is done.
Well, for years when Peyton Manning was the statistically dominant player over Brady, it wasn’t about the stats. Now that Brady has the statistics, it’s all about the stats.
You had it right the first time. 😂
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It's a personal opinion when it comes down to it
My GOATS are
Brady
Barry Sanders
Lawrence Taylor
What defines GOAT to me are a few things:
Winning many championships AND being the most important player during those Championships.
A distant third would be a multiple time, major award winner.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
......
Just like it was all gravy after 28-3, the stats and records were just icing on the cake.
Seriously I think you may have numbered those items to favor Brady. For instance, manning has 5 mvps to Brady’s 3 so that obviously doesn’t come in first on your list.
Regarding 2. Didn’t Brady pretty much have a top 5 or 10 ranked defense on every super bowl the pats won? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always heard Brady got way too much credit especially for the first 3 super bowl wins because the defense was so dominant.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
I think what has happened is that people go back now having seen how great Brady was in his career and want to retroactively assign greatness to Brady early in his career; as if Tom Brady was the same player year one as he is now.
It’s not only incorrect, it cheapens his story and the Patriots dynasty. As a Giants fan, I’m in the small minority who has no hate for the franchise; we weren’t direct competitors and we beat you every time it mattered. Organizationally, Robert Kraft basically wanted to be us then ultimately did it even better. A competent, smart, accurate quarterback, a dominant running game and a spectacular, talent laden defense built by Parcells and Bellichek. But for Tom, it was hard work and experience that made Brady improve every year; he was not a step in and dominate quarterback and there were very legitimate reasons that he was a 6th round pick. Sure, Brady was important in that every QB is but I would argue Teddy Bruschi was responsible for as many big plays during the 2001-04 run as anyone else on the roster. And lest we forget, Adam Vinatieri’s foot was important, too. Clutch kicks from distance shouldn’t be taken for granted - ask Scott Norwood or Ray Finkle. Brady can have all the credit for Atlanta but he’s got to share the first three with a ton of other players when he was a cog in the wheel instead of the actual wheel he would one day become.
I would point to 2007 as when the team shifted to being ‘Tom-centric’ as the original defense aged out and the front office derived serious benefit from being able to bring in high end talent on the cheap with let’s call it disgruntled talent (Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, etc.) where it made sense to invest in offense and piece it together defensively, something that continued as they rebuilt the defense to the point where by the end of his run in NE, the talent was mostly back on the defensive side of the ball.
By the way, this is not exclusive to Brady, it’s also true of another modern GOAT candidate - Michael Jordan - in that people want to rewrite the story after the fact and pretend that the player he eventually became is the player he always was.
Experience and hard work matter; always have and always will, in all walks of life.
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I'd like to see what reasons people can come up with to say Brady is NOT the GOAT.
I'm legit curious what they can come up with lol
OK his first 5 or 6 seasons were definitely not statistically great, but the rest of his career from 2007 onwards was.
Most passing yards, most TD's most Super Bowl rings? He has stats, longevity and rings so take your pick on what you want to base it on lol
It's definitely an opinion when it comes down to it like I said but it is interesting and funny hearing arguments as to why he is not though
@perkdog
You know I have no problem with him having the designation for anyone that chooses to give it to him. He’s earned that - and without question.
To me, the individual statistics are almost irrelevant because every guy on the leaderboards for every single passing category plays now.
And again, in the middle of their careers, when Manning’s stats were considerably and consistently being those of Brady, I was arguing that Brady was better - even then.
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I don’t want to have my prior post eaten, so…
“And again, in the middle of their careers, when Manning’s stats were considerably and consistently beating those of Brady, I was arguing that Brady was better - even then.”
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the reason i rank awards third, is because they are voted on. sometimes earned, sometimes not. there is a case that jordan should have about 10 or 12 MVPs, but voters got jordan fatigue and chose others. Sometimes the winners deserve the awards, sometimes they dont. ultimately, it is an arbitrary marker of greatness. Just ask Raphael Palmiero in 1999.
as far as Brady not being the most important cog in the early SB championships, I would disagree. I remember all very well. As a rookie, he completed the game winning drive in the 4th quarter with less than 2 minutes left that had even John Madden amazed. in SB 2 and 3, he had great Stats, QB rating over 100 in both games, when that really meant something.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I know your Blood is all New York but even with that I always respect your input as being pretty open minded and fair.
Manning put up better stats early on, I remember me and my buddies always saying Manning was a better stats guy but Brady was a flat out winner, except Ofcourse when it came to his brother 🤬
Might want to refresh that memory…
As a rookie, Tom Brady threw one pass in his one appearance in a game. In his second year, he replaced Drew Bledsoe and started 14 games. That year of learning mattered. In that entire 2001 postseason, he threw a total of one touchdown pass. Again, we can go back and assign more meaning but getting a team in position for a 48 yard field goal is stretching the definition in my book. While it literally works, I have a hard time with it being considered in the same class of the classic drive for a TD to win. Of which Brady had many! Heck, even I’d even give credit for getting them in position for a chip shot. Plus, while it may have changed over time, the story after that SuperBowl was how the Pats D had shut down the Greatest Show on Turf, not how a young QB had ‘won the game’.
And John Madden was already slipping at that point, by the way, as every other person on earth was thinking the Pats had better win this in regulation because the Rams had figured it out after three quarters of being stymied, having started to shred the Patriots defense over the final 15 minutes and scored 14 fourth quarter points of their 17 total points in the game.
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@perkdog said: I'd like to see what reasons people can come up with to say Brady is NOT the GOAT.
I don't know for sure that he is or isn't the GOAT, but I don't agree it's a closed discussion as easily as his fanbase does. Part of the reason that Tom Brady is given so much consideration is because of the longevity involve, how many years he played. To my way of thinking it appears that a QB who played maybe 10-12 years is penalized in the discussion because he never had the opportunity to achieve the goals that Brady did. To that end, is it fair to Brady to only compare his first 10-12 years in a discussion?? That leaves him at a disadvantage.
Comparing QB's from different era's also confuses things and the fact that what Brady accomplished is still crystal clear in our minds makes it even harder still.
But it shouldn't be a short discussion for an open-minded fan of the NFL.
Two points to consider melded into one: during it's history there are two primary competitive leagues that the NFL absorbed, the All-American Football Conference, the AAFC, and the American Football Conference, the AFC. It's interesting to note that while the NFL honors and includes in its records the statistics of the AFL, the NFL excludes all records from the AAFC. That includes the fact that the 1948 Cleveland Browns had an undefeated 14-0 season and won four consecutive Championships. Before anyone dismisses the AAFC they might want to read a little history and understand that this "rival upstart" outdrew the NFL in attendance and was a legitimate threat, but I digress. There was also a point in the 1960's when the rival AFC was taking all the talent coming out of the NCAA schools and also so big name defectors from NFL rosters, posing a legitimate threat, but again, I digress.
The point is clear: why take the records of one without the other??
As to the relevant GOAT consideration I would pose the name of Otto Graham for consideration. He seems to meet the criteria laid out by @craig44, to wit:
--- All time great individual performances/statistics.
--- Winning many championships AND being the most important player during those Championships.
--- A distant third would be a multiple time, major award winner.
Consider that from 1946-1955, a career of 10 years, Otto Graham Quarterbacked the Cleveland Browns to 10 consecutive Championship Games. compiling a record of 7-3, was 3× NFL Most Valuable Player (1951, 1953, 1955), 4× First-team All-Pro (1951, 1953–1955), 2× NFL passing yards leader (1952, 1953), NFL passing touchdowns leader (1952), 2× NFL passer rating leader (1953, 1955), 3× NFL completion percentage leader (1953–1955), 4× AAFC champion (1946–1949), 2× AAFC Most Valuable Player (1947, 1948), 3× First-team All-AAFC (1947–1949), Second-team All-AAFC (1946), 3× AAFC passing yards leader (1947–1949), 2× AAFC passing touchdowns leader (1946, 1947). Otto Graham also holds the NFL record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with 8.63. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 81.0%.
I accept and understand that the NFL was a little different in the post-WWII era, but should that be held against Graham and work in Brady's favor?? They can only play when they played which is why the highlighted last sentence above stands so clearly. We're talking about records which have stood the test of almost 70 years and held up.
So please explain to me why Tom Brady should be considered the hands down GOAT, I'm listening.
Tom Brady's resume speaks for itself.
You want to.penslize Brady for playing longer? Sure you do, your a Cleveland guy and prefer Otto Graham who played against a far less talent pool then Brady.
Post war great teams were what? LA and Detroit? The Browns were stacked compared to the Texans, Steelers, Packers ect,,
So Otto passing yards per attempt and winning percentage across 10 seasons puts him over Brady who played 20 years? And has more championships? Lol OK
Otto was awesome, no doubt about it but the game he played looked more like a backyard rugby game, it was definitely tougher in a lot of ways but again the talent pool was so much smaller, 3/4 of the players were construction workers and salesman in the off season,
So you're incapable of being objective??
No, I'm just waiting for you to tell me why Brady isn't the GOAT instead of telling me why you think Graham is
My first sentence summed up what I think: I don't know for sure that he is or isn't the GOAT, but I don't agree it's a closed discussion as easily as his fanbase does. I only provided Otto Graham because he is a good example of meeting the criteria as laid out by @craig44 and as I stated later it shouldn't be a short discussion for an open-minded fan of the NFL.
Just to further my point of why statistics aren’t really a good basis for the argument:
When Dan Marino eclipsed 5,000 yards it was exceptional. Only guy ever to do it and his record stood for 24 years. I think the record has been broken four times since 2008 when Brees set a new mark. It’s no longer even impressive. For crying out loud, when he wasn’t busy stealing crab Jameis Winston found time to throw for 5K…
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And in my first post in this thread I said its opinion based, I don't think I can say it any more open minded
It's my opinion that Tom Brady is the GOAT, if anyone thinks differently then that is completely fine as long as it's reasonable and sure Otto Graham is a reasonable discussion maker, as is a few others that people have mentioned whenever this discussion is brought up
Remember the good old days when a thousand yards by a RB was a big deal lol
Statistics are a valid point as long as the discussion understands that as the game changes the relevance of comparison changes. That Marino stat is a good example: it seems like nothing today but was impressive when accomplished. To put Otto Graham's statistics into focus, Patrick Mahomes surpassed the career total of Graham's 10 years in his first six. They ran more often in 1950 which means a modern day QB often throws for more in the first half than the earlier QB did for an entire game.
Yes and I recall that part of what made it impressive was that the player made it through the entire season healthy (and this when teams didn’t have three guys doing the job!).
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Oh this is easy.
A Goat is someone who has done what none other could do.
Orr - 8 straight Norris trophies
None other got 8
Orr - 2 scoring titles
None other D men could do it
Orr - + .91 per game
No forwards or D even close
Orr best point shares seasons have never been sniffed at by any other.
His top 5 blow away the rest.
Orr - ppg for D is 1.4
Next in line for D is 1.09
Coffey played in a much easier time to score and with the two greatest forwards ever.
In hockey the Goat discussion is an easy one.
Sincerely,
Mr. Scotty Bowman
No one cares.
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My real answer to your question will likely get me banned.
So there is simply my edited Readers Digest condensed version... there simply is no GOAT... for any sport at any position...period... so there is no real point in trying to compare Otto Graham to Tom Brady or Tiger Woods to Ben Hogan... Rod Carew to Ted Williams or whatever the player of the moment might be to compare to the other. There is no point in trying to define GOAT as so many attributes are simply not captured by stats that really cannot be compared beyond the time of accomplishment. The one that plays last will always get the benefit of what transpired before them. In contrast, the pioneers have little other than how they changed the game, music or film which should be more compelling.
And these reasons for simply not defining or recognizing a GOAT should be obvious- So let's take this beyond Sports. We can look at Films... The AFI has conveniently suggested the greatest films, the greatest actors and actresses, the greatest comedy films and so on... And then there is Rolling Stone with their 100 greatest singers//200 greatest singers not to be confused by their greatest albums and greatest singles. Sports, films, music and what should matter in terms of leaving a cultural footprint for generations really should not be compared to others... simply put...I would never compare Cab Calloway to Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan to Robert Johnson. I would not compare Pride of The Yankees to Field of Dreams. The history of these subjects are just far too important to reduce to GOATS, Greatest lists of all time or whatever. There is simply far more harm in ignoring and not recognizing contributions of many that are worthy instead of condensing at the expense of those that are worthy. Over time those important contributions fade and may even miss being a footnote in history. History is simply too important to be reduced into a modern sound bite.
And that is exactly how ridiculous a GOAT discussion really is. And please keep in mind this was edited to be short and to the point.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
How else is Otto Graham supposed to come up?
Athletes whose first names are palindromes?
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Goat taco's from the Southside Chicago...
.....
Thank You
You’re jealous 😂
No other sport besides hockey has a real goat like Coinkat said.
To him and I it’s obvious.
Other sports have equals and no goat.
Hockey has a real Goat.
Sorry 1951WP.😎
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I think that is a pretty fair categorization. I would be curious as how you weigh each of them. For instance, does individual performance/statistics comprise 50% of the weighting, and then the other two split the remaining 50% in some fashion(with the awards being far less as you stated)?
As for the discussion, the stumbling block is always longevity vs peak. I stated in other threads that Mahomes in peak value is a hair ahead of Brady in peak value. But is that enough to even consider a discussion vs Brady for all time status? I would say no at this time since their peaks are very close and Brady has four other different five year peaks nearly as good.
But, what if Mahomes has another five year peak as good as this one(or a tad better)? So in a ten year span Mahomes is better than Brady in a ten year span in those three categories above.
The most reasonable and fair GOAT discussion should be broken down by decade and position in my opinion.
QB
RB
WR
TE
OL
DL
LB
DB
K
P
...
That's very diplomatic of you. 🏈
It is but I still say Brady if forced to pick just one player
Just FYI, I’ve officially been swayed and I’m now leaning towards Bobby Orr for GOAT quarterback…
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...
it's awfully nice of @goldenage to take the heat off of us Brady fans by becoming the most heavy handed GOAT fanatic.
....
I know that a lot of people are hesitant to name Brady the GOAT football player. They sometimes agree on the QB aspect but can't go that far.
Which is understandable, I highly doubt he would have survived 23 years in the league had he played in the 60's and 70's in another position
..
I hit agree. But I can say without embarrassment or sarcasm that Brady is about as tough as they come.
With all of the Brady talk, I've mentioned here recently a few times that I've read a lot about this guy. Not only is he mentally superior to most in both intellect and resilience, he is physically extremely tough. His injury history (or lack there of) is one example of this. Much has been made of the Hurts sneaks. How about Brady's? Just as effective, while also mai training the threat of any other play being ran. The idea that he couldn't have played in other eras is foolish. Played this long? Most likely not. No one did.
Don't misunderstand my post with thinking Brady is not tough, he is definitely a tough player but I was referring to any other position back in the 60's and 70's and no matter how tough you are the chances of lasting 23 seasons is pretty low
The greatest hunchback was The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
Well, I’ll take Igor.
Honorable mention to the guy that Theodoric, the Barber of York worked on…
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I think he prefers the term ‘extreme curvature of the spine person of Notre Dame’.
Personally I think the political correctness has gone too far.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
Lon Chaney or Charles Laughton?
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I will agree that Tom Brady is mentally superior to most other QB's, but to be honest, since he played when he did his physical toughness was never really tested. If you went back and looked at his games there are some where he's never touched. That's not a tribute to HIS toughness but it certainly speaks well of the players charged with protecting him. Those are the guys that need to be judged as tough. And running backs, especially, in any era. When guys are carrying the ball 200-300 times a season there's no comparing "toughness" with a modern QB.
But think what you will, some of you guys see Brady as god-like and incapable of any weakness, I get that. I just don't subscribe to it.