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1813 Bust half... O-107

jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 13, 2023 8:05PM in U.S. Coin Forum

As per Mailbockaddict..." this is one variety that evey CBH nut should have"
It's another early date with dramatic clashing and cracks, and easy to come by, as it's an abundant R1 in the late die state.
I've had several of them over the years, I'll post some pics and maybe tell a story or two (Ala @pursuitofliberty ) and of course I'd love to see any others that you all have.

I'll start with this one.
Just arrived in the mail today... I bought it some years ago from Keith Davignon, who thought it might be the tough R4 prime die state... I'm not so sure about that, and I'm actually hoping this thread might shed some light on that subject, ...just how prime this variety is known to be is something I'm trying to study... 🤔

Originally, I bought this in an old p40 holder, got it reholdered when edgeviews came out (since the cool slightly off center strike was completely covered up by the gasket)
Sold it a few years ago.
Someone got it into a 45 holder.
I was actually able to buy it back again for slightly less than I sold it for originally! 👏

Here are the LanceViews..


Comments

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You know if you tag me, I'm going to see it! :D

    Glad to see you posting again.

    Nice coin and great story (history) of how it came and went, and came back again. She loves you, she really loves you! :D

    Actually, she's a beauty! WTG!!

    .
    We're currently listing 7 Die States and I would call yours the 107.2 as I can definitely see the "Die crack rev from above last S thru O and to scroll", although much like mine, it doesn't extend through the scroll nor "eventually crosses right wing and arrowheads to top of 0 C".

    Yours also has the same clash as mine, so they're almost twins.

    There is an image of Fredrick's old coin, and that is what I think we can call a true 107 Prime. It does not show that crack, at all, at least from what I can gather from Heritage's images.
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1813-50c-o-107-r4-xf40-pcgs-pcgs-population-2-in-40-4-finer-6-17-from-the-donald-r-frederick-collection/a/131730-27093.s?ic3

    The true Prime then, as far as I can tell, has the die crack in the curl, and the four dots within the date (1.8.1..3)

    .

    Okay, here's mine


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Belay my last, when I got zoomed in, yours appears to have the "die crack rev from tip of olive stem, across top of 5, thru olive leaves and UNITED STATE at top (first trace between center and right pairs of olive leaves)" ... making it a 107.3


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You said it - nice color and the off center strike gives it a little more unique look. :)
    I checked but I think mine is a 108. :/

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pursuitofliberty said:
    Belay my last, when I got zoomed in, yours appears to have the "die crack rev from tip of olive stem, across top of 5, thru olive leaves and UNITED STATE at top (first trace between center and right pairs of olive leaves)" ... making it a 107.3

    Yours is a true beauty Todd!
    I added Lance's images to the 1st post which show the reverse crack and the crack from curl through 1 3
    I always found it odd that there was ever any notion that mine could be considered prime with so many cracks already present..🤔
    But, I do have another one on the way that I hope is a little closer!

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So here's another great one that I also managed to own twice... although I don't have it now, who knows, it may boomerang back!

    Late die state drama queen...

    (LanceViews from back when it was in an N58 holder)


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    Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2023 8:27PM

    Was watching that on eBay. Great looking coin! Nice pickup… again.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem said:
    So here's another great one that I also managed to own twice... although I don't have it now, who knows, it may boomerang back!

    Late die state drama queen...

    Shattered! Those Dies were battered!!

    .

    @jayPem said:
    I always found it odd that there was ever any notion that mine could be considered prime with so many cracks already present..🤔
    But, I do have another one on the way that I hope is a little closer!

    Waiting with baited breath!

    .
    Also, before the Die studies got off in earnest for some of these crazy multi-state progressions, reading Overton 3rd Edition would make one think yours was a Prime 107 (in my opinion).

    I'm not going to quote it, but yours fits the description to a word on the reverse, and since you don't have obverse cracks (other than the "small horizontal crack just above the upper ribbon end"), Overton considered yours RARE. His obverse description (again, 3rd Edition) describes what we see today as a 107.4. The 107a starts at Die State 107.5


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Todd, is any of the new die progression info published yet?
    It would be great to have access to.. BHNC only??

    It's funny, even though I'm someone who's into bust half die states, I really don't get excited about primes that much..
    Unlike the 1814 107, the 1813 107 prime doesn't seem to have much of a pull? (R7 vs R4 might have something to do with it..)
    You do see a number of ebay sellers trying to peddle their 107's as R4's though, late state or not...

    Another one that presently is in my collection..


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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem To answer your question about the die state progressions, it is published and available from the distributor David Kahn's website. No membership needed to purchase.

    If you don't already know, the CoinZip forums have a lot of halves by marriage posted if you want to look at images: https://coinzip.proboards.com/thread/1457/1813-107-r4

    The site looks to be a ghost town, but it is definitely worth making a login account. I don't see any primes there but neat anyway.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem As @jacrispies stated, the BHNC "Die State Progressions ..." guide is available via Dave Kahn's website. It was published in early 2022.

    Certain friends can also help you ;) PM or Text Bro'


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh yeah, kinda forgot about coinzip..
    Looks like I'll have to figure out how to recover my password 🤤

    It'll be cool to see the new die progression system take off.. maybe Sheridan has already used it some in his auctions descriptions?

    Here's another mid state..

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super cool example! I like the mid die state because it features the crisp and legible UNITED clash.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    COCollectorCOCollector Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2023 2:44PM

    @pursuitofliberty said:
    @jayPem As @jacrispies stated, the BHNC "Die State Progressions ..." guide is available via Dave Kahn's website...

    .
    https://www.davidkahnrarecoins.com/die-state-progressions-of-capped-bust-half-dollar-die-varieties-by-bhnc.html

    Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem Up to 973 documented Die States for the CBH's, last count. Some only have one, but more than a few have more than 5 Die States. I haven't seen Sheridan use the new decimal designator yet ... but Dave Kahn is starting to show it in his descriptions. I'm keeping it in all of my notes.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    drddmdrddm Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To fill in some holes of your story @jayPem I bought your coin several years ago from you and upgraded it to 45. It was a beauty and I loved the early die state and also the slightly off center strike. I consigned it to one of Sheridan’s MB auction a few years after where it sold to someone, whom I’m assuming probably sold it to the person you bought it from.

    Either way, she’s a beauty and I’m glad she found her way back home to you.

    I actually owned your other one as well for a short period of time. If I’m not mistaken I helped you get it restickered at CAC. I sold it back to you for one or two of your other beautiful bust halves. I don’t know where it is now but I do recall seeing it on EAC’s website for awhile way back when.

    Here is my 1813-107a… certainly not as late a die state as Todd’s beautiful one above but a favorite due to the nice toning, which I also happen to have picked up from EAC several years ago.


    Dave

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2023 11:23PM

    Excellent Dave!
    They all say that you can't give up bust halves forever, and here I am, right back at it...
    So, I'd love to know how many states there are for the 13 107, and if we can possibly get them all in this post with member coins.
    Pretty sure we have it except for the Prime. Frederick's coin is in the post, but it'd be cool if someone here had one!
    Alas, it's not me..
    Just received my latest and it's not it..
    It's the first one I've had without the obverse crack through 13 but it has the start of the reverse cracks between EDS, S to O into the banner and faintly between olive leaves...just a few strikes later than Todd's perhaps...

    This is actually my version of vault box..😄 gambled on this one a bit as it's in an unusual PCI holder...
    EF 45, I suspect it could cross at 50 on a good day.
    It's dark but has full cartwheel luster on both sides and flashy gold and blue toning. Cool original coin in a cool old holder 👍



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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pursuitofliberty said:
    @jayPem Up to 973 documented Die States for the CBH's, last count. Some only have one, but more than a few have more than 5 Die States. I haven't seen Sheridan use the new decimal designator yet ... but Dave Kahn is starting to show it in his descriptions. I'm keeping it in all of my notes.

    I can't wait to get a copy Todd!
    Went to DK's site today to get mine and just like coinzip, I have no idea what my old password is...
    Couldn't reset on Kahns site since they've had too many password reset requests and they can't take anymore at the moment...🤤

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    Super cool example! I like the mid die state because it features the crisp and legible UNITED clash.

    True!
    It's a great clash, and seems to have survived for awhile as it's still pretty sharp on the other VF I posted, which has some of the later state die cracks...

    Looks like there's been an attempt to remove much of the obverse clashing on the later state AU I posted.

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem Also, careful with that PCI holder, I have seen some real ugly toners come from those. We certainly don't want our beautiful bust halves stained! 😛

    Yours looks nice in that holder though.

    I wish I had a 107 to post!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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