Possible conservation for spot treatment? $20 Lib Gold

PeakRarities · February 12, 2023 7:11AM

I bought this coin at winter FUN to fill my spot for a type 1 Lib 20 to replace the 1861 I sold. This coin has amazing surfaces compared to a lot of the other type 1 AU58s graded by pcgs. It’s got a ton of luster, and I believe it to be completely original. 1853 is a really tough date to find with eye appeal, and the reverse is outstanding. Unfortunately, it’s got these dark spots on the cheek, and in her hair. They appear to be lighter in the true view and actually have a greenish color. I’m wondering if it’s PVC, grease, or some other type of organic contaminant that could be improved by conservation efforts? I don’t care what PCGS would charge, but I’m just wondering if it would even be considered if I did send it in. Even if they weren’t removed completely, I would be happy if they were lightened and I could get the CAC sticker re applied

If not, it’s no issue as I really like the coin and I can enjoy it regardless, I would just enjoy it more if the spots weren’t as noticeable. Eventually I may upgrade this coin to a shipwreck 20 in MS

BillJones · February 12, 2023 7:21AM

I would leave it alone. If you have someone mess with it, probably will come out as lighter spots instead of darker ones.

I bought this NGC AU-58 over twenty years ago. The 1861 is a lesser date from the rarity aspect, but historically interesting.

PeakRarities · February 12, 2023 7:28AM

@BillJones said:
I would leave it alone. If you have someone mess with it, probably will come out as lighter spots instead of darker ones.

I bought this NGC AU-58 over twenty years ago. The 1861 is a lesser date from the rarity aspect, but historically interesting.

Thank you Mr. Jones, your input is very much appreciated. That is a beautiful 1861, and though they are a little more common, it’s a great value for a civil war date $20 gold. This is the coin that I bought and sold on GC, I sort of wish I had kept it, however I did turn a nice profit on it after having it CAC’d myself.

PerryHall · February 12, 2023 8:24AM

Those spots are insignificant and your coin looks fine the way it is now. Don't screw with it.

pcgscacgold · February 12, 2023 8:29AM

That 1861 looks really nice. I would have had a hard time letting that one go

BillJones · February 12, 2023 8:59AM

Here's coin that is not nearly as nice. I bought it because of the story of Captain Dixon of the Confederate submarine Hunley. He was shot in the leg at the Battle of Shiloh. An 1860 $20 gold piece that his girl friend gave him saved his life when the bullet hit that piece. He had it engraved an carried it with him for the rest of his life. It was recovered from the submarine wreck.

I could never get the exhibit to work, but I still have the coin.

Some might think that this piece would look better if it were to be cleaned up. It won't. This piece is graded AU-55, CAC.

PeakRarities · February 12, 2023 9:07AM

@BillJones said:
Here's coin that is not nearly as nice. I bought it because of the story of Captain Dixon of the Confederate submarine Hunley. He was shot in the leg at the Battle of Shiloh. An 1860 $20 gold piece that his girl friend gave him saved his life when the bullet hit that piece. He had it engraved an carried it with him for the rest of his life. It was recovered from the submarine wreck.

I could never get the exhibit to work, but I still have the coin.

😮WOW. A civil war date $20 that saved someone’s life by stopping a bullet IN the Civil War, and subsequently recovered from a submarine? That might be, no, that IS the coolest coin story I’ve ever heard!

skier07 · February 12, 2023 9:09AM

I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

PerryHall · February 12, 2023 9:10AM

@DeplorableDan 1860 is not a Civil War date. It's a pre-Civil War date though which makes it a neat coin.

PeakRarities · February 12, 2023 9:14AM

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

jmlanzaf · February 12, 2023 9:16AM

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

Because he paid face value...

BillJones · February 12, 2023 9:19AM

The Hunley was raised about 10 years, and it's been under restoration since then. It's just outside Charlestown, South Carolina.

The coin was thought to be a legend until they found it during the restoration. It's on display there, and you can buy a very nice replica of it for about $10.

Hunley painting

The Hunley today

A Hunley model. I bought this for the exhibit, but it's too tall to fit in a case that way I thought it would.

If you look at the shape of this vessel, it's remarkable how close it is to a modern submarine. These guys are decades ahead of their time. The Hunley was the first submarine that was able to sink a ship during wartime.

The thing was a death trap. Many people died on it, including Mr. Hunley, who financed it, but it was a remarkable technical achievement.

blitzdude · February 12, 2023 9:22AM

I see some copper spots. Leave them alone, old gold coins are supposed to have them. IMO the only thing distracting is the tacky green sticker on the slab. The coin is just fine the way it is. RGDS!

jmlanzaf · February 12, 2023 9:26AM

@DeplorableDan said:

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

Acetone will remove surface dirt but carbon spots are part of the surface.

PeakRarities · February 12, 2023 9:28AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

Acetone will remove surface dirt but carbon spots are part of the surface.

Right, I just couldn’t really tell if the spots were carbon or copper spots, the green color threw me off and made me think it may have been some other type of contaminate.

jmlanzaf · February 12, 2023 9:30AM

@DeplorableDan said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

Acetone will remove surface dirt but carbon spots are part of the surface.

Right, I just couldn’t really tell if the spots were carbon or copper spots, the green color threw me off and made me think it may have been some other type of contaminate.

It's hard to tell. The one on the cheek looks like surface dirt. The ones in the hair look like carbon to me.

If it were raw, an acetone bath is cheap and harmless. Holdered, it's a somewhat different calculation.

Namvet69 · February 12, 2023 9:30AM

The historic significance is large, IMO. The condition of the coin reflects the journey. Let it be. Peace Roy

blitzdude · February 12, 2023 9:31AM

Definitely copper spots on the reverse. Wouldn't want them any other way. THKS!

skier07 · February 12, 2023 9:35AM

@DeplorableDan said:

@skier07 said:

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

The most important thing is you love your new coin. I would be very happy with it also.

asheland · February 12, 2023 12:09PM

I don’t find the spots a bother at all, I would leave it be and would enjoy the coin very much.

dsessom · February 12, 2023 12:16PM

@DeplorableDan said:
I bought this coin at winter FUN to fill my spot for a type 1 Lib 20 to replace the 1861 I sold. This coin has amazing surfaces compared to a lot of the other type 1 AU58s graded by pcgs. It’s got a ton of luster, and I believe it to be completely original. 1853 is a really tough date to find with eye appeal, and the reverse is outstanding. Unfortunately, it’s got these dark spots on the cheek, and in her hair. They appear to be lighter in the true view and actually have a greenish color. I’m wondering if it’s PVC, grease, or some other type of organic contaminant that could be improved by conservation efforts? I don’t care what PCGS would charge, but I’m just wondering if it would even be considered if I did send it in. Even if they weren’t removed completely, I would be happy if they were lightened and I could get the CAC sticker re applied

If not, it’s no issue as I really like the coin and I can enjoy it regardless, I would just enjoy it more if the spots weren’t as noticeable. Eventually I may upgrade this coin to a shipwreck 20 in MS

I agree with the others here. I would not mess with it. Just looking closely at the photos, and knowing that gold does not corrode, nor react with most other things that cause spots on coins, my guess is that the spot may be paint. There appears to be some red along the lip area on the obverse. The other flecks looks green. So, paint is my best guess.

1madman · February 12, 2023 2:00PM

I think all the spots on the obverse could be removed with conservation, but would the coin upgrade afterwards? The best I could possibly see this going is a 58+. If you can’t tolerate the spots, get it cleaned up, but I don’t think it’s worth it.

ironmanl63 · February 12, 2023 2:48PM

There is no guarantee to get the sticker back if it is conserved. Even if it keeps the same certification number. I spoke with JA about this on a coin I was considering to have conserved.

winesteven · February 12, 2023 10:03PM

@ironmanl63 said:
There is no guarantee to get the sticker back if it is conserved. Even if it keeps the same certification number. I spoke with JA about this on a coin I was considering to have conserved.

This reply is generic in nature to address a few points raised, as I agree with the unanimous consensus to leave the coin as is.

If PCGS accepts a coin and performs Restoration, it WILL get a new cert number, even if you request and insist the current cert number remains unchanged!
While my personal experience with PCGS Restoration and then getting a CAC sticker back has been positive, I think taking a chance on getting the CAC sticker back after Restoration is very risky! I had a very common date Liberty Double Eagle bought on eBay as a 64+ with a CAC sticker with a small dark line on the reverse that I had undergo PCGS Restoration. They made the dark line a little thinner, and PCGS then graded it 65. I got lucky with that bump up in grade, and I also got lucky as CAC gave this a sticker at 65. I then got even luckier, rolling the dice with house money, sending it back to PCGS for Reconsideration. It got upgraded to a 65+, and since that latter process retained the same cert number as the 65 with CAC, the 65+ automatically got the CAC sticker reapplied. See the TrueView below. My second lucky situation was with an 1854 Seated Half Dollar (Arrows) graded MS64 that was the UGLIEST coin in my entire collection. Being it was the very last slot in my Registry Dansco 7070 to fill, and the CAC Pop was only five, I held my nose and bought it. But it drove me nuts every day I owned it. I eventually upgraded that slot with a 65+ with CAC, so now I could sell Miss UGLY. At this point I didn’t care if it lost the CAC after Restoration. It was accepted for Restoration, and they did a decent job. The grade remained 64, but had a new cert number, as it really is a “different” coin. I then sent it to CAC, and it got a sticker, and then I sold it to a forum friend AFTER I disclosed this history to him. Photos are below (the colors you see in the restored TV were present on the original coin, but somewhat muted and not picked up well in the original photo). Regardless of my success in this limited sampling, as I indicate, I think it’s a great risk hoping to get the CAC sticker back!
For coins already graded that are submitted to PCGS Restoration, if they determine the coin will not benefit from Restoration, they only charge you $10 (plus round trip shipping). If the coin is raw, they will grade it and add on the grading fee to that $10 Evaluation” fee. Not bad at all for those coins where it’s worth a shot. If they restore it, the charge is the grading fee PLUS 3% of the full value in its final grade (plus round trip shipping).

Steve

Clackamas1 · February 12, 2023 10:50PM

I guess I have been out of it for too long. I did not know PCGS did restoration. What methods do they use? Acetone?

Clackamas1 · February 12, 2023 10:52PM

I have this coin. It is a 5/2 65 CAC and totally original, but it is so muted that it is bothersome. It is like a haze on it or grime. Technically it is a 66+ but it just lacks the eye appeal. Its not like I can just get a better one either. Should I think about conserving it?

winesteven · February 13, 2023 12:39AM

The professionals at PCGS Restoration use acetone, along with other methods they deem “acceptable”. However, in my very limited research, I have not read anything specific about what goes on “behind the curtain”. Perhaps others here can elaborate?

Regardless, I still maintain that if you proceed, and your coin is accepted for Restoration, in my opinion there’s a high risk that you will not get the CAC sticker back. As such, you have to weigh that potential loss versus the potential gain of having a coin with a “different” eye appeal that you may or may not like. If you do send it in, and they accept it, you still pay the 3% fee of the total value of the final grade (I forgot to mention in my lengthy reply above that they guarantee the new grade will NOT drop), along with the grading fee.

Good luck, and if you do proceed, let us know how you make out, including before and after photos.

Steve

P.S. I just looked at your PHENOMENAL 14 coin #1 All-Time Ranked 1868 Mint Set! WOW!!!! You even surpassed D.L. Hanson’s set, which used to be #1.

Clackamas1 · February 13, 2023 2:02AM

@winesteven said:

P.S. I just looked at your PHENOMENAL 14 coin #1 All-Time Ranked 1868 Mint Set! WOW!!!! You even surpassed D.L. Hanson’s set, which used to be #1.

Thanks, 20+ years of work. Hansen has me beat still, he did an update and removed a coin for some reason. I will say a bunch of my coins are in old holders, and some have never been to CAC either. Anything without a photo is because the were graded before true-view and before CAC. I am debating to send them in for true-view/regrade/ and then to CAC. My 2c was a cac, I sent it in for regrade and never sent it back to CAC. I need to do this since my heirs will get hosed trying to sell these 30 years from now. I will say that I am a date/type collector which probably hoses some series collectors. I have a better MS dime than my 62 as an NGC 64 and I am wildly upset I missed the finest know in auction this past year and it went for a song. I am sure Hansen has it now and it went or like $25K. - oh you have to stay on top or you miss.

winesteven · February 13, 2023 2:48AM

Well, as with many things in life, it’s also true in numismatics - “You snooze, you lose”. But my friend, YOU have not lost - you won! You’ve put together a wonderful collection that is the envy of those who look!

Like you, I too am concerned about my heirs receiving fair value if I should pass before my collection is sold (and I’m old enough to be your dad, lol). So I do suggest that you do indeed consider taking the actions needed to maximize the values of your holdings in the intelligent manner you’ve described. You never know when your time will come. My late wife passed away suddenly with no medical warning at 64, within minutes. That taught me many life lessons.

Again, congratulations, you should be very proud!

Steve

PerryHall · February 13, 2023 2:54AM

@Clackamas1 said:
I guess I have been out of it for too long. I did not know PCGS did restoration. What methods do they use? Acetone?

I'm sure their processes and methods are proprietary or in other words, they are secret. They don't want amateurs ruining their coins and then blaming them for giving them bad advice.

Clackamas1 · February 13, 2023 3:05AM

@PerryHall said:

@Clackamas1 said:
I guess I have been out of it for too long. I did not know PCGS did restoration. What methods do they use? Acetone?

I'm sure their processes and methods are proprietary or in other words, they are secret. They don't want amateurs ruining their coins and then blaming them for giving them bad advice.

Coin zest, a brillow pad and hot water. Seriously it is only a few things, acetone or distilled water. I personally like MS70 for removing the haze on modern mint set coins. Apparently they do not but it is a valid way as long as you neutralize it is seconds and coins that have had plastic film on them. I have no reason why they hide the obvious and helpful. Acetone is not always right BTW - it can remove toning if the toning is a deposit and not a chemical reaction.

PerryHall · February 13, 2023 3:57AM

@Clackamas1 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Clackamas1 said:
I guess I have been out of it for too long. I did not know PCGS did restoration. What methods do they use? Acetone?

I'm sure their processes and methods are proprietary or in other words, they are secret. They don't want amateurs ruining their coins and then blaming them for giving them bad advice.

Coin zest, a brillow pad and hot water. Seriously it is only a few things, acetone or distilled water. I personally like MS70 for removing the haze on modern mint set coins. Apparently they do not but it is a valid way as long as you neutralize it is seconds and coins that have had plastic film on them. I have no reason why they hide the obvious and helpful. Acetone is not always right BTW - it can remove toning if the toning is a deposit and not a chemical reaction.

I bet they have chemicals and "tricks-of-the-trade" that you are unaware of.

Clackamas1 · February 13, 2023 4:27AM

@PerryHall said:

@Clackamas1 said:

@PerryHall said:

I bet they have chemicals and "tricks-of-the-trade" that you are unaware of.

I so hope so. It takes stones to try to clean some coins. It is one thing with a $75 mint set coin, it is another with a 5/2 19th century coin.

P0CKETCHANGE · February 13, 2023 4:31AM

@Clackamas1 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Clackamas1 said:
I guess I have been out of it for too long. I did not know PCGS did restoration. What methods do they use? Acetone?

I'm sure their processes and methods are proprietary or in other words, they are secret. They don't want amateurs ruining their coins and then blaming them for giving them bad advice.

Coin zest, a brillow pad and hot water.

Ah, the King Farouk treatment, yes.

logger7 · February 13, 2023 4:41AM

My biggest conservation submission mistake was at NCS and a High relief Saint that should never have been conserved but the dealer I got it from said it would upgrade if a ball of dirt were removed from the reverse. They weren't able to remove it and charged me nearly a grand.

Riley1955 · February 13, 2023 4:44AM

@DeplorableDan said:

@skier07 said:
I would leave the coin alone. It’s a lovely coin and the spots from the pictures don’t appear to be detracting. I’m not trying to be a smart arse but why would you buy a coin if the spots appear to be bothering you.

I mean, we all have to make some concessions when we buy a coin, right? Especially a scarcer date, I can’t easily find another one that looks nicer in my price range. Reading a lot of threads about an acetone bath that can dissolve surface contaminants, I was just wondering if it was worthy of consideration. I still love the coin, just wanted to share my thoughts and ask for feedback.

@DeplorableDan
Is acetone an acceptable method of spot removal or would it get the grading "details-cleaning"? I've seen a lot of talk about it. Actually watch a PCGS video where they mention using acetone.

ricko · February 13, 2023 4:47AM

@DeplorableDan ... If it were raw, I would definitely give it an acetone bath. However, it is a nice coin, and I would not crack it out for the minor issues you are concerned with. Cheers, RickO

Jimnight · February 13, 2023 5:19AM

A lot of excellent opinions. My opinion would be, as long as you have peace of mind the choice is yours.

Maywood · February 13, 2023 5:27AM

@DeplorableDan said: I believe it to be completely original.

The "originality" of the subject coin seems to be very important to you, once it is conserved it is no longer original no matter how you dress that word up. Isn't it an old Hobby adage that it's always best to pass on a coin with "problems" that you'll try to fix and patiently search for a coin without problems?? It's too late to do anything about that now since you already bought the coin, maybe you should just leave it as is, enjoy it for what it is and look for something "original" with no "problems" that suits you better.

Clackamas1 · February 13, 2023 5:35AM

@Riley1955 said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@DeplorableDan
Is acetone an acceptable method of spot removal or would it get the grading "details-cleaning"? I've seen a lot of talk about it. Actually watch a PCGS video where they mention using acetone.

IMO - NO - It will remove everything but actual metal, and some toning is not actually metal toning. Just look at an oil slick, it will give you rainbows. I once (stupid thing) took a nice rainbow war Jeff, it had a haze on it so I acetoned it - bam - just straight out of the press color. The toning was not metal toning it was the fine 70+ year layer of petrol layered on it from the plastic in the album. I never did that again.

Clackamas1 · February 13, 2023 5:48AM

@Maywood said:
@DeplorableDan said: I believe it to be completely original.

The "originality" of the subject coin seems to be very important to you, once it is conserved it is no longer original no matter how you dress that word up. Isn't it an old Hobby adage that it's always best to pass on a coin with "problems" that you'll try to fix and patiently search for a coin without problems?? It's too late to do anything about that now since you already bought the coin, maybe you should just leave it as is, enjoy it for what it is and look for something "original" with no "problems" that suits you better.

I know on my coin it is 100% original, hence the smoke layer. I hear you and you are not wrong. I always tell everyone I know don't touch your coins because anyone can do that and you are not helping any more than I can. I know my coin is just dirty and even just a water bath would be good. It is a 5/2 CAC. But I can't find another but the coin is ugly and I am know it needs help. I would be fine with a fine soap bath to get the dirt and oils off after the last 155 years.

PeakRarities · February 13, 2023 6:03AM

@Maywood said:
@DeplorableDan said: I believe it to be completely original.

The "originality" of the subject coin seems to be very important to you, once it is conserved it is no longer original no matter how you dress that word up. Isn't it an old Hobby adage that it's always best to pass on a coin with "problems" that you'll try to fix and patiently search for a coin without problems?? It's too late to do anything about that now since you already bought the coin, maybe you should just leave it as is, enjoy it for what it is and look for something "original" with no "problems" that suits you better.

Sound advice, although depending on what type of conservation is applied to a. coin, Imo I wouldn’t necessarily disqualify it from being original. I really love the color and the patina of this coin and I wouldn’t want that to change at all, in my head I just imagined a dab of acetone on a a qtip in one or two spots just to dissolve the grime, but if the look of the coin were to be changed I wouldn’t want to do it.

@1madman said:
I think all the spots on the obverse could be removed with conservation, but would the coin upgrade afterwards? The best I could possibly see this going is a 58+. If you can’t tolerate the spots, get it cleaned up, but I don’t think it’s worth it.

Wasn’t worried about upgrading, it was purely for eye appeal purposes. I had my coins out yesterday and when I looked at it I just think “wow, what a nice looking 58, I just wish the spots weren’t as noticeable”

streeter · February 13, 2023 11:10AM

I'm just plain chicken to play with coins but a guy I know takes spots off gold by putting them in an
MS70 circulating bath. The copper spots will return because they are from a bad alloy of the metal.

Maywood · February 13, 2023 1:31PM

@Clackamas1 said: I once (stupid thing) took a nice rainbow war Jeff, it had a haze on it so I acetoned it - bam - just straight out of the press color.

I did something similar to a 1962 Proof Jefferson Nickel. It had a lazy blue tone over both sides and what seemed to be slam-dunk DCAM portraits. I had it for quite a while and finally caved, gave it a quick rinse in E-Z-Est and expected a deep contrasted and frosted gem.

I ended up with a brilliant coin absent any color.

OldIndianNutKase · February 13, 2023 8:51PM

@streeter said:
I'm just plain chicken to play with coins but a guy I know takes spots off gold by putting them in an
MS70 circulating bath. The copper spots will return because they are from a bad alloy of the metal.

Obviously you can treat gold coins with MS70 because gold is not reactive.....with anything. Certainly a dip in acetone or MS70 may very well fix the spots. But gold coins do have a copper content so the results are not guaranteed, but probably worth the risk if the coin will upgrade.

OINK

Possible conservation for spot treatment? $20 Lib Gold

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