@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
@DeutscherGeist said:
If the story is as stated, PSA was in the wrong. If the declared value was $1400, that is the basis to go by in making the customer whole. However, the problem is that PSA did not grade the card, so I am not sure if the declared value would apply. However, if it was a far lower grade than the customer estimated it to be, it's not like PSA refunds the excess in grading fees, so maybe $1400 is a basis point. Since it was PSA in error, they might have to give the declared value the benefit of the doubt. It's not like the customer just came up with the value, there was skin in the game. The higher the declared value, the grading fees are higher too.
It's not a straightforward case, but getting a lawyer involved deeper than some kind of warning letter is not going to be cost effective. What is the point of winning a case when you spend more money on legal services and fees than actually gaining on damages paid out. With all due respect to lawyers, the money involved in this particular case does not warrant one apart from maybe a brief consultation. Small Claims court would be the route for this if one is that serious with the time to spare.
Overall, a trustworthy company needs to resolve these disputes quickly as it is costly the more time passes. No one got hurt, no sentimental item at play, it was an unintentional mistake by a company, so no reason to hold back on anything. Just make the customer whole according to policy and be done with it.
I agree with everything you said including not being cost effective if I get a lawyer involved.
@DeutscherGeist said:
If the story is as stated, PSA was in the wrong. If the declared value was $1400, that is the basis to go by in making the customer whole. However, the problem is that PSA did not grade the card, so I am not sure if the declared value would apply. However, if it was a far lower grade than the customer estimated it to be, it's not like PSA refunds the excess in grading fees, so maybe $1400 is a basis point. Since it was PSA in error, they might have to give the declared value the benefit of the doubt. It's not like the customer just came up with the value, there was skin in the game. The higher the declared value, the grading fees are higher too.
Two things: first, submitters can put any value they like for declaration. It needn't have any basis in reality. Second, you misunderstand the PSA grading tiers. If for some reason someone needed his VG 1982 Topps Shooty Babbit back in three days, Walk Through grading is available for cards valued under $9999 into which category this card certainly falls.
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Two things: first, submitters can put any value they like for declaration. It needn't have any basis in reality. Second, you misunderstand the PSA grading tiers. If for some reason someone needed his VG 1982 Topps Shooty Babbit back in three days, Walk Through grading is available for cards valued under $9999 into which category this card certainly falls.
Maybe I was not clear with my articulation. For example, under the $25 and $40 service, a card with a declared value of $1400 could not qualify. They would have to go at least with the $75 service. If the declared value was $400 was provided, then the $25 service would be a go. I was just making the point that a higher declared value would also correspond to a higher cost to grade the card. I know that speed of grading is also something that increases the grading service fee.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Raw card was put into a soft sleeve which was inserted into a Card Saver. Here is the PSA sticker (with the serial number blacked out) which was affixed to the Card Saver. The PRO Gem Mint 10 label was also sent back without the PRO holder which of course was damaged when the card was cracked out. A PSA serial number was assigned but when put into the PSA database it’s non existent since the card didn’t get graded. I hope this clarifies everything which transpired!
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Raw card was put into a soft sleeve which was inserted into a Card Saver. Here is the PSA sticker (with the serial number blacked out) which was affixed to the Card Saver. The PRO Gem Mint 10 label was also sent back without the PRO holder which of course was damaged when the card was cracked out. A PSA serial number was assigned but when put into the PSA database it’s non existent since the card didn’t get graded. I hope this clarifies everything which transpired!
Ouch! So it definitely wasn't holdered because it didn't reach the minimum grade. No idea what to tell you. That hurts that they honored your request not to grade it if it was less than a 9 but not to leave it in the PRO holder.
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Raw card was put into a soft sleeve which was inserted into a Card Saver. Here is the PSA sticker (with the serial number blacked out) which was affixed to the Card Saver. The PRO Gem Mint 10 label was also sent back without the PRO holder which of course was damaged when the card was cracked out. A PSA serial number was assigned but when put into the PSA database it’s non existent since the card didn’t get graded. I hope this clarifies everything which transpired!
Ouch! So it definitely wasn't holdered because it didn't reach the minimum grade. No idea what to tell you. That hurts that they honored your request not to grade it if it was less than a 9 but not to leave it in the PRO holder.
True, they violated their own advertised policy! If I had known this was going to happen I definitely would not have send it in. The solution to me is if they cracked it out they should put it in a PSA 9 holder! To me other than a minuscule red print dot it looks perfect!
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
@tod41 said:
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
I agree with you. You should reread some of my prior posts before you jump to conclusions!
@tod41 said:
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
I agree with you. You should reread some of my prior posts before you jump to conclusions!
You should limit your usage of explanation points.
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
@tod41 said:
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
I agree with you. You should reread some of my prior posts before you jump to conclusions!
You should limit your usage of explanation points.
@Yankeefan320 said:
True, they violated their own advertised policy! If I had known this was going to happen I definitely would not have send it in. The solution to me is if they cracked it out they should put it in a PSA 9 holder! To me other than a minuscule red print dot it looks perfect!
For the sake of the hobby and integrity in grading, putting that card in a PSA 9 holder now would challenge the credibility of the service provided by PSA. They do, however, need to compensate you for their error. They could offer you the declared value and associated fees you paid and you send the card back. That would be a quick solution. I wonder what would happen to the card in such a case. Perhaps they can grade it and then donate it to charity (the charity would then auction it off). It would be a shame for the card to be destroyed.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
I see you edited it since I read it....
Did he add more exclamation points?
Kiss me once, shame on you. Kiss me twice.....let's party.
@DeutscherGeist said:
I wonder what would happen to the card in such a case. Perhaps they can grade it and then donate it to charity (the charity would then auction it off). It would be a shame for the card to be destroyed.
While a nice idea, why would they donate it to charity or destroy it?? When a car gets totaled, your insurance company doesn't take the wreck and give it away or send it to the junk yard for free. They sell it for salvage value or auction it off and keep the proceeds to offset the payout. Thus, psa would either sell it raw, or grade it and sell it (though there could be an issue on how they don't show grading favoritism for a company owned card.) It is going to be whatever the process is for when they damage a card in PSA's possesion or during the encapsulation process and they just cut a check but no downgraded card gets sent back to the submitter.
@RufussCkingston said:
While a nice idea, why would they donate it to charity or destroy it?? When a car gets totaled, your insurance company doesn't take the wreck and give it away or send it to the junk yard for free. They sell it for salvage value or auction it off and keep the proceeds to offset the payout. Thus, psa would either sell it raw, or grade it and sell it (though there could be an issue on how they don't show grading favoritism for a company owned card.) It is going to be whatever the process is for when they damage a card in PSA's possesion or during the encapsulation process and they just cut a check but no downgraded card gets sent back to the submitter.
The conflict of interest would be the reason they cannot just sell the card themselves and earn money on it. If its graded, you already mentioned that conflict of interest, but even if raw, people might assume that because its from PSA, it has to possess some kind of quality or grade. Worse yet, people may think of a raw card sold by PSA as something wrong with it as a reason it was not graded. Sure, PSA can sell as is, but what is the point of having potentially unsatisfied customers in the wake? Its best for PSA to recuse itself from any hint of impropriety or conflict of interest. I get your analogy with the salvaged cars and the insurance company, but the PSA situation is a little different.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@RufussCkingston said:
You still haven't clarified if PSA sent the card back to you RAW, or in a SLAB with a grade??? Be transparent...(unless i missed it above)
Go back and read my very first post!
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Raw card was put into a soft sleeve which was inserted into a Card Saver. Here is the PSA sticker (with the serial number blacked out) which was affixed to the Card Saver. The PRO Gem Mint 10 label was also sent back without the PRO holder which of course was damaged when the card was cracked out. A PSA serial number was assigned but when put into the PSA database it’s non existent since the card didn’t get graded. I hope this clarifies everything which transpired!
Ouch! So it definitely wasn't holdered because it didn't reach the minimum grade. No idea what to tell you. That hurts that they honored your request not to grade it if it was less than a 9 but not to leave it in the PRO holder.
True, they violated their own advertised policy! If I had known this was going to happen I definitely would not have send it in. The solution to me is if they cracked it out they should put it in a PSA 9 holder! To me other than a minuscule red print dot it looks perfect!
What if they thought it was a 9, cracked it out and then found a surface scratch or dent that was not visible due to the blocking optics of the holder it was in, that's happened to me a handful of times. They probably deemed it was a 9 and then found something wrong with it after removing it from the holder, they can't just give you a 9 because you think it deserves it. It's unfortunate, yes, hopefully they make it right somehow.
This must happen more often though, right? I never understood how they expect to be able to grade a card accurately in a holder, especially BGS cards that are also encased within a thick internal sleeve.
This must happen more often though, right? I never understood how they expect to be able to grade a card accurately in a holder, especially BGS cards that are also encased within a thick internal sleeve.
Always been one of life's mysteries to me. It would be like grading every card without removing it from the rigid holder it arrives in.
wow lots of words in this thread. If the card is real, at this point it should be sent back in graded, and you should be compensated the difference in the value between whatever it grades and a 9 (maybe capped at your declared value if that is reasonable)since that was the grade that should have been honored. this is how it would have been handled on an overgraded card per their guarantee and seems reasonable.
@detroitfan2 said: This must happen more often though, right? I never understood how they expect to be able to grade a card accurately in a holder, especially BGS cards that are also encased within a thick internal sleeve.
Always been one of life's mysteries to me. It would be like grading every card without removing it from the rigid holder it arrives in.
I guess I always assumed that PSA would DNC if there was any doubt the way the card was sitting in the holder.
With reviews, PSA will crack the card out and then reholder to the same grade if they find an issue on closer inspection. I imagine they have a similar policy for crossovers. If the card looks like it will cross in the slab but after being cracked out they find a flaw, they return the raw card and the cracked slab.
Bummer for the original submitter but being anything other than cordial in your dealings with PSA is ill advised. I never understood why people think "reading the riot act" or getting upset helps their cause. Far better to get yourself under control and then work with PSA to come to a reasonable solution. I doubt you will get anything close to $1400 or $950 since you still possess the card and presumably it can be re-graded by PRO if you so desire.
@tod41 said:
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
I agree with you. You should reread some of my prior posts before you jump to conclusions!
May we see a picture of the card in question?
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
@fergie23 said:
With reviews, PSA will crack the card out and then reholder to the same grade if they find an issue on closer inspection. I imagine they have a similar policy for crossovers. If the card looks like it will cross in the slab but after being cracked out they find a flaw, they return the raw card and the cracked slab.
Bummer for the original submitter but being anything other than cordial in your dealings with PSA is ill advised. I never understood why people think "reading the riot act" or getting upset helps their cause. Far better to get yourself under control and then work with PSA to come to a reasonable solution. I doubt you will get anything close to $1400 or $950 since you still possess the card and presumably it can be re-graded by PRO if you so desire.
Robb
I think the reasonable solution I would agree to is to send the card back and for PSA to put it in Mint 9 holder since they deemed it worthy of that grade while in the PRO Gem Mint 10 holder before they cracked it out.
I think the reasonable solution I would agree to is to send the card back and for PSA to put it in Mint 9 holder since they deemed it worthy of that grade while in the PRO Gem Mint 10 holder before they cracked it out.
While I imagine you would like that solution, I don't think it would be the right outcome. If the card was worthy of a PSA 9 holder it would be in one. I bet they found an issue with the card once it was cracked.
I think best case, PSA grades the card and you get the difference between a PRO 10 holdered card and what it sells for in the PSA grade it deserved. I am not sure a $950 BIN is an accurate reflection of the PRO 10 value, I would bet it is actually less as BIN sales tend to be inflated. I am not sure if PSA will go down that route but I doubt you will be happy if they do. The $1175 offer is functionally irrelevant since it is not a consummated sale.
I believe there has been more than enough speculation here from all sides. I'm going to close this one down and let PSA and the OP come to a conclusion with this situation.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
Comments
Go back and read my very first post!
I agree with everything you said including not being cost effective if I get a lawyer involved.
Two things: first, submitters can put any value they like for declaration. It needn't have any basis in reality. Second, you misunderstand the PSA grading tiers. If for some reason someone needed his VG 1982 Topps Shooty Babbit back in three days, Walk Through grading is available for cards valued under $9999 into which category this card certainly falls.
Fair enough. I also missed the answer to this question the first few times I read your post. So, PSA doesn't just return cards raw. They (almost) always put a sticker on the Card Saver explaining why the card wasn't graded. Was there a sticker and, if so, what did it say?
Maybe I was not clear with my articulation. For example, under the $25 and $40 service, a card with a declared value of $1400 could not qualify. They would have to go at least with the $75 service. If the declared value was $400 was provided, then the $25 service would be a go. I was just making the point that a higher declared value would also correspond to a higher cost to grade the card. I know that speed of grading is also something that increases the grading service fee.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Raw card was put into a soft sleeve which was inserted into a Card Saver. Here is the PSA sticker (with the serial number blacked out) which was affixed to the Card Saver. The PRO Gem Mint 10 label was also sent back without the PRO holder which of course was damaged when the card was cracked out. A PSA serial number was assigned but when put into the PSA database it’s non existent since the card didn’t get graded. I hope this clarifies everything which transpired!
Ouch! So it definitely wasn't holdered because it didn't reach the minimum grade. No idea what to tell you. That hurts that they honored your request not to grade it if it was less than a 9 but not to leave it in the PRO holder.
True, they violated their own advertised policy! If I had known this was going to happen I definitely would not have send it in. The solution to me is if they cracked it out they should put it in a PSA 9 holder! To me other than a minuscule red print dot it looks perfect!
Honestly you should stop with the legal threats because it's not going to get you anything. Read the terms and conditions. There is a venue clause where it states that all legal actions must be placed in California. So unless you live close to PSA, I doubt that is a practical position. You are also capped at your declared limit of $1400.00. It's not even worth retaining a lawyer for a letter and PSA knows this.
I agree with you. You should reread some of my prior posts before you jump to conclusions!
You should limit your usage of explanation points.
I see you edited it since I read it....
For the sake of the hobby and integrity in grading, putting that card in a PSA 9 holder now would challenge the credibility of the service provided by PSA. They do, however, need to compensate you for their error. They could offer you the declared value and associated fees you paid and you send the card back. That would be a quick solution. I wonder what would happen to the card in such a case. Perhaps they can grade it and then donate it to charity (the charity would then auction it off). It would be a shame for the card to be destroyed.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Did he add more exclamation points?
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
While a nice idea, why would they donate it to charity or destroy it?? When a car gets totaled, your insurance company doesn't take the wreck and give it away or send it to the junk yard for free. They sell it for salvage value or auction it off and keep the proceeds to offset the payout. Thus, psa would either sell it raw, or grade it and sell it (though there could be an issue on how they don't show grading favoritism for a company owned card.) It is going to be whatever the process is for when they damage a card in PSA's possesion or during the encapsulation process and they just cut a check but no downgraded card gets sent back to the submitter.
The conflict of interest would be the reason they cannot just sell the card themselves and earn money on it. If its graded, you already mentioned that conflict of interest, but even if raw, people might assume that because its from PSA, it has to possess some kind of quality or grade. Worse yet, people may think of a raw card sold by PSA as something wrong with it as a reason it was not graded. Sure, PSA can sell as is, but what is the point of having potentially unsatisfied customers in the wake? Its best for PSA to recuse itself from any hint of impropriety or conflict of interest. I get your analogy with the salvaged cars and the insurance company, but the PSA situation is a little different.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Since they own Goldin they should just reholder and it it up for sale.
Especially if it’s graded a 9 or 10.
What if they thought it was a 9, cracked it out and then found a surface scratch or dent that was not visible due to the blocking optics of the holder it was in, that's happened to me a handful of times. They probably deemed it was a 9 and then found something wrong with it after removing it from the holder, they can't just give you a 9 because you think it deserves it. It's unfortunate, yes, hopefully they make it right somehow.
This must happen more often though, right? I never understood how they expect to be able to grade a card accurately in a holder, especially BGS cards that are also encased within a thick internal sleeve.
This must happen more often though, right? I never understood how they expect to be able to grade a card accurately in a holder, especially BGS cards that are also encased within a thick internal sleeve.
Always been one of life's mysteries to me. It would be like grading every card without removing it from the rigid holder it arrives in.
wow lots of words in this thread. If the card is real, at this point it should be sent back in graded, and you should be compensated the difference in the value between whatever it grades and a 9 (maybe capped at your declared value if that is reasonable)since that was the grade that should have been honored. this is how it would have been handled on an overgraded card per their guarantee and seems reasonable.
I guess I always assumed that PSA would DNC if there was any doubt the way the card was sitting in the holder.
With reviews, PSA will crack the card out and then reholder to the same grade if they find an issue on closer inspection. I imagine they have a similar policy for crossovers. If the card looks like it will cross in the slab but after being cracked out they find a flaw, they return the raw card and the cracked slab.
Bummer for the original submitter but being anything other than cordial in your dealings with PSA is ill advised. I never understood why people think "reading the riot act" or getting upset helps their cause. Far better to get yourself under control and then work with PSA to come to a reasonable solution. I doubt you will get anything close to $1400 or $950 since you still possess the card and presumably it can be re-graded by PRO if you so desire.
Robb
May we see a picture of the card in question?
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
I think the reasonable solution I would agree to is to send the card back and for PSA to put it in Mint 9 holder since they deemed it worthy of that grade while in the PRO Gem Mint 10 holder before they cracked it out.
I think the reasonable solution I would agree to is to send the card back and for PSA to put it in Mint 9 holder since they deemed it worthy of that grade while in the PRO Gem Mint 10 holder before they cracked it out.
While I imagine you would like that solution, I don't think it would be the right outcome. If the card was worthy of a PSA 9 holder it would be in one. I bet they found an issue with the card once it was cracked.
I think best case, PSA grades the card and you get the difference between a PRO 10 holdered card and what it sells for in the PSA grade it deserved. I am not sure a $950 BIN is an accurate reflection of the PRO 10 value, I would bet it is actually less as BIN sales tend to be inflated. I am not sure if PSA will go down that route but I doubt you will be happy if they do. The $1175 offer is functionally irrelevant since it is not a consummated sale.
Robb
I believe there has been more than enough speculation here from all sides. I'm going to close this one down and let PSA and the OP come to a conclusion with this situation.