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Proposal : Sellers Disclose Condition Of Their PCGS/NGC Holders, Agree or Disagree

WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
edited February 3, 2023 7:37PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Seems to me it’s time for Sellers to disclose the condition of their TPG holders. For me it’s an important part of the purchase process. Vintage rattlers and OGH are in demand and part of the reason people pay higher prices for them and the amount of scratches and smudges should count. Especially Gold CAC Nothing better than perfect plastic

Could be done with a simple rating system similar to baseball cards with 10 being perfect as in no discernible imperfections in the plastic and 9 being near perfect with no significant scratches in the viewing area and so on. Seller’s would assign the number rating in their listing. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 8:17PM

    Is it time for slabs for slabs?

    edited to add... One reason for slabbing coins is to protect them from damage, which would seem to imply that sometimes, slabs will endure damage so that the coin does not. If the condition of the slab becomes an important enough feature, wouldn't that mean the slab itself needs to be protected? Is there an end game here? Just asking...

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Shouldn't coin slabs be on a 70 point scale?

    [Just kind of interesting that people disliked NGCX, but when they want a new scale they go for a 10 point scale. ]

    Irony note aside, any good seller should describe damage to a holder or scuffs in the focal region. I'm not sure a rating system is necessary.

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People are constantly resubmitting, reholdering, crossing over, and cracking out, that I don’t think it’s a big deal.
    I wouldn’t reject a coin I liked in a beat up holder, nor pay any premium for a coin in a pristine holder.

    Now if someone would come up with a way to polish out marks on NGC holders, that would be something!

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think so. Sellers rarely disclose problems with the coins themselves, let alone the slab. That duty falls to the buyer to interpret the pictures.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    People are constantly resubmitting, reholdering, crossing over, and cracking out, that I don’t think it’s a big deal.
    I wouldn’t reject a coin I liked in a beat up holder, nor pay any premium for a coin in a pristine holder.

    Now if someone would come up with a way to polish out marks on NGC holders, that would be something!

    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

    I don't know if the seller is selling it that way, but he's buying it that way.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

    I don't know if the seller is selling it that way, but he's buying it that way.

    If you're thinking about buying and you're not sure about something, you can typically ask a question, I would suppose.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

    I don't know if the seller is selling it that way, but he's buying it that way.

    If you're thinking about buying and you're not sure about something, you can typically ask a question, I would suppose.

    I'm not advocating for a grading system. But the response that implied you could just reholder won't apply to a coin bought for the holder.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would describe any damage to the slab along with the coin.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

    I don't know if the seller is selling it that way, but he's buying it that way.

    If you're thinking about buying and you're not sure about something, you can typically ask a question, I would suppose.

    I'm not advocating for a grading system. But the response that implied you could just reholder won't apply to a coin bought for the holder.

    Agreed. On the other hand, it would be difficult for a seller to know why a potential buyer is considering the purchase.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    He's talking about vintage holders that no one would crack.

    If people are advertising the holder as "vintage", they're selling both the coin and the holder. Seems like in that case, both need to be described adequately (whatever that ends up meaning).

    I don't know if the seller is selling it that way, but he's buying it that way.

    If you're thinking about buying and you're not sure about something, you can typically ask a question, I would suppose.

    I'm not advocating for a grading system. But the response that implied you could just reholder won't apply to a coin bought for the holder.

    Agreed. On the other hand, it would be difficult for a seller to know why a potential buyer is considering the purchase.

    Also agreed. But it is just courtesy to describe anything significant, especially in the focal tegions.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Also agreed. But it is just courtesy to describe anything significant, especially in the focal tegions.

    I'm glad I sell raw coins. That way, I only end up responsible for describing the condition of the coin, not both the coin and the slab.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I recall correctly, whenever I would list a vintage holder on my site or offer it for sale here I would always mention if there was cosmetic or structural damage to the slab. Cosmetic damage wasn't unusual (one footer chipped on a PCGS holder or something like that) but structural damage was rare enough that I don't remember handling a coin that had it.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any time there's a fatty I'm interested in without holo pics, you're dang right I ask for holo shots. Occasionally get a nice surprise with a gold foil instead.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    rte592rte592 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Forget the scale.
    The seller could disclose issues or the buyer could ask if they see or just want to ask.

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    Is it time for slabs for slabs?

    edited to add... One reason for slabbing coins is to protect them from damage, which would seem to imply that sometimes, slabs will endure damage so that the coin does not. If the condition of the slab becomes an important enough feature, wouldn't that mean the slab itself needs to be protected? Is there an end game here? Just asking...

    No need. Just buy the plastic protectors for $5 for 100. Will protect against any scratches or smudges. Collectors and dealers should handle their slabs just like they would care for raw coins and most holders would stay pristine. A pristine rattler from 35 years ago shows the owners took pride in keeping their coins beautiful.

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are slabs that have been polished to remove the scratches worth less in this particular segment of exonumia?

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    pointfivezeropointfivezero Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    I would describe any damage to the slab along with the coin.

    I can and do describe any issues with the holder, whether it’s an early or more recent slab. But I have received plenty of eBay slabs with damage which was not in the description nor evident in the auction pictures.

    The issue is most pervasive on PCGS 2.1 and 2.2 outer rings for some reason. I must have a dozen with cracks or chips.

    Tim

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,444 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The seller should describe any damage that a slab may have. Otherwise, just provide good pics of the coin and the overall slab. As far as older collectable slabs, in most cases it's very difficult if not impossible to detect if the slab has been polished to remove small scuffs and scratches.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is there an easy way to tell if a slab has a seam leak?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:
    Proposal : Sellers Disclose Condition Of Their PCGS/NGC Holders, Agree or Disagree

    Seems to me it’s time for Sellers to disclose the condition of their TPG holders. For me it’s an important part of the purchase process. Vintage rattlers and OGH are in demand and part of the reason people pay higher prices for them and the amount of scratches and smudges should count. Especially Gold CAC Nothing better than perfect plastic

    Could be done with a simple rating system similar to baseball cards with 10 being perfect as in no discernible imperfections in the plastic and 9 being near perfect with no significant scratches in the viewing area and so on. Seller’s would assign the number rating in their listing. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts.

    Didn't we run into an issue with sellers disclosing the condition of their coins, which resulted in the creation of TPGs?

    If we needed TPGs to grade coin condition, do we need TPGs to also grade holder condition?

    If so, we're on the way there :)

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    Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 6,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think having a grading system for slabs is going too far, but disclosing any chips, cracks or distracting marks on a slab should be disclosed by the seller.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really do not give an obese rodent's derriere about the slab condition.... I just want to see and evaluate the coin. If the slab condition prevents coin evaluation, then I would just pass. Cheers, RickO

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bought my first coin from one of the second tier auction houses last year (though they might think of themselves as tier 1!). The top of the slab is internally shattered- spiderweb cracks. No disclosure was provided. I was pretty upset but did not pursue the issue. To reholder would also involve a round trip to CAC. I haven’t even bothered to bid again in this particular auction house’s subsequent sales. Sell damaged slabs without disclosure at your own risk! It may cost you a customer! Picture for reference:

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2023 11:11PM

    My goal not buy damaged mishandled slabs (unless estate deal, discount offer accordingly) - So not an issue for me.

    If for some reason I might buy a mishandled slab say part of deal of several from my table off bourse will discount offer accordingly cover cross to PCGS or reholder cost.

    Take care of your slabs. I keep all mine in PCGS, NGC, in storage boxes and may use my old Teletrade storage boxes that will take just any any slab as I have PCGS, NGC, and some Anacs, ICG. Why somebody not mfg a universal plastic slab storage box beats me - they would make a lot of money.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The condition of a slab matters quite a bit to me, I like my slabs to be perfect, I can allow a few little scratches and minor minor chips but when they’re damaged sometimes I’ll pass on the coin over it.

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    SIowhandSIowhand Posts: 319 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Buy the coin, not the….. n/m.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there are just cosmetic schmutz or surface stuff and minor scratches, I'd hope that most sellers would have Scratch X or other polish to clean them up, yet I don't know any shop dealer that knows much about that.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2023 6:58PM

    I agree that the condition of the holder is important. The last time I had a coin reholdered, it cost a fortune in fees than postage, and it was only one way postage. My position was “never again,” unless the coin is something is very very special.

    I am not that fussy. I don’t care if a stacking fin is broken. What I care about are the windows that show the coin. Sure, you can fix them with headlight polish, but I’d rather not. The last piece I had re-holder had the window damaged by the dealer label which must have had sulfuric acid in the glue. I could see enough of the coin to know that I liked it, but the cost of fixing the holder ruined the deal. It was a 1903 McKinley gold dollar that looked like a P-L although it was not marked as such.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    While it is appreciated that the sellers disclose actual damage to the slab that wasn’t the primary intent of my thread. I wanted it to be easy for buyers who want fine quality holders to be able to easily access that information without having to interrogate the seller.
    Thus the proposal for a voluntary disclosure from sellers giving an actual number rating to their plastic. I and other conscious buyers of pristine holders can than concentrate mainly on the quality of the coin. I only buy perfect or near perfect holders as I want the best viewing experience possible. I own a rattler and OGH with virtually no blemishes that I can proudly rate a 10.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I agree that the condition of the holder is important. The last time I had a coin reholdered, it cost a fortune in fees than postage, and it was only one way postage. My position was “never again,” unless the coin is something is very very special.

    I am not that fussy. I don’t care if a stacking fin is broken. What I care about are the windows that show the coin. Sure, you can fix them with headlight polish, but I’d rather not. The last piece I had re-holder had the window damaged by the dealer label which must have had sulfuric acid in the glue. I could see enough of the coin to know that I liked it, but the cost of fixing the holder ruined the deal. It was a 1903 McKinley gold dollar that looked like a P-L although it was not marked as such.

    I assume you're talking about the $300 rarities reholder fee, and not the $18 Gold Shield fee for coins up to $100,000?

    Fees here: https://www.pcgs.com/resources/pdf/PCGSMemberServicesAndFees2022.pdf

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This one kinda bugged me.
    Lance.

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    air4mdcair4mdc Posts: 800 ✭✭✭✭

    After examining some of my slabs I would tend to agree. With a much closer inspection of some of the slabs I had purchased in my early years of collecting I sure didn’t pay much attention to the detail of the slab. I will now start to scrutinize my purchases much better. Obviously this doesn’t work well with an on-line purchase, which could result in the return of the slabbed coin.
    A seller disclosure would save both the seller and buyer some time, effort and money.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @BillJones said:
    I agree that the condition of the holder is important. The last time I had a coin reholdered, it cost a fortune in fees than postage, and it was only one way postage. My position was “never again,” unless the coin is something is very very special.

    I am not that fussy. I don’t care if a stacking fin is broken. What I care about are the windows that show the coin. Sure, you can fix them with headlight polish, but I’d rather not. The last piece I had re-holder had the window damaged by the dealer label which must have had sulfuric acid in the glue. I could see enough of the coin to know that I liked it, but the cost of fixing the holder ruined the deal. It was a 1903 McKinley gold dollar that looked like a P-L although it was not marked as such.

    I assume you're talking about the $300 rarities reholder fee, and not the $18 Gold Shield fee for coins up to $100,000?

    Fees here: https://www.pcgs.com/resources/pdf/PCGSMemberServicesAndFees2022.pdf

    No. It was a coin that cost just over $1,000. When I got done, I had over $50 invested in a re-holder. It was not a re-grade.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you're paying $10k for a holder with a $200 coin in it, you better believe the condition is important!

    Good pictures are a must but a holder grading scale?? Only needed if there is a holder registry. :D

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    skier07skier07 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While buying a coin in a damaged slab wouldn’t preclude me from making a purchase I would like to know and it should be pointed out by the seller or auction house.

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2023 12:45PM

    @Lakesammman said:
    If you're paying $10k for a holder with a $200 coin in it, you better believe the condition is important!

    Good pictures are a must but a holder grading scale?? Only needed if there is a holder registry. :D

    A few years ago, the prospect of doing this seemed absurd. Now it's not. Today my question about polished slabs being less desirable was facetious. How long before it's not?

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    silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2023 10:00PM

    seriously disagree with such a idea

    Coins for sale at link below
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/TyJbuBJf37WZ2KT19

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I've said in other threads, the emphasis on the condition of the slab mystifies me.

    Aren't we collecting coins?

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    silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i know i'm a coin collector not a slab collector and really don't care how the slab looks now if there is a major issue with the slab it will be said but it has to be a major issue for me to go into that much detail

    Coins for sale at link below
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/TyJbuBJf37WZ2KT19

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2023 11:17PM

    I was about to buy a beautiful CAC 66 Classic Commem coin at a show but the slab had damage - passed. This is material for my inventory to sell so damaged slabs don’t cut it.

    Take care of your slabs!

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    As I've said in other threads, the emphasis on the condition of the slab mystifies me.

    Aren't we collecting coins?

    We are but we are also collecting gold beans rattlers OGH NGC black rare holders doilies etc

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    As I've said in other threads, the emphasis on the condition of the slab mystifies me.

    Aren't we collecting coins?

    Not always. And even if it's not ac collectible slab, a scuff across the final lfocal area can ruin viewing. In a $100 coin, are you going to pay to reholdee?

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover
    Sure. Collectible slabs represent maybe 1% of the stuff out there. For those, "disclosure" is obviously relevant.

    @jmlanzaf
    A scuff across the viewing area is easy to fix. It takes 5 minutes, tops. I repair the slabs of around 80-90% of the slabs I buy. For excellent photography, the viewing windows need to be pretty darn perfect.

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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep - polishing doesn't take long and makes a big difference - pre on left, post on right. NGC slab.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    jackpine20jackpine20 Posts: 139 ✭✭✭✭

    I make a point to hold TPG'ed coins as I would a raw coin. I like how dealers sometimes protect their inventory in plastic sleeves. That little practice preserves the integrity of the holder for those of us who care. A holder-grading scale is not as telling as a well-composed image that reflects imperfections, or lack thereof, in sunlight.

    Matt Snebold

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    hbarbeehbarbee Posts: 169 ✭✭✭

    I have seen some holders and own a couple with fairly expensive coins inside that have nasty scratches across the face. I always wondered how/why an owner would mishandle a valuable coin in such a manner.

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