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A new trend over at NGC

braddickbraddick Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 29, 2023 6:25PM in U.S. Coin Forum

For some bulk submissions, NGC will allow the submitter to request that only the adjectival grade be printed on the NGC certification label. This is generally done only for large submissions of relatively common coins. The coins must still meet NGC’s requirements for the numeric grade range for that adjectival grade. For example, a coin that would grade AU 58 cannot receive an adjectival grade of UNCIRCULATED.

peacockcoins

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmm…I’m hoping that if the coin were XF details, NGC would insist on the details wording. It sounds like they do, I just want to confirm that “XF” only means straight grade XF.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Back to the old days. :D

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't like that. Old coins can have a huge price gap between 40 and 45 sometimes...

    But if it's a common coin with little to no difference it wouldn't hurt, but then again if you are paying for grading why wouldn't you just get the number (unless it's cheaper)?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This isn't exactly new. They've been doing it for years with hoard coins and things of that nature.

    And PCGS does it with "Brilliant uncirculated" and similar grades.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So what the point of getting them graded?

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    So what the point of getting them graded?

    Perhaps it is more of an authentication service now?

    peacockcoins

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:

    @gumby1234 said:
    So what the point of getting them graded?

    Perhaps it is more of an authentication service now?

    This. PCGS did WTC ground zero coins without any grade at all, for example.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Back to the old days. :D

    Agree. Some people may like traditional collecting.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:

    @gumby1234 said:
    So what the point of getting them graded?

    Perhaps it is more of an authentication service now?

    Authentication and protection.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not a fan of that.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,674 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Conversely, can you request the numeric grade without the label abbreviation? The number seems more important to me.

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems like a useless practice that serves no good purpose.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what is the point of that. The Trade Dollar that is pictured looks clearly cleaned as well.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think dealers want it to make it easier to mass market coins such as Morgan dollars to the general public. A slab labeled "Extremely Fine" raises fewer questions than a coin with "XF45" among the general public which will be targeted by the coin hucksters on HSN or QVC or any number of newspaper and magazine ads.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    Seems like a useless practice that serves no good purpose.

    It's usually cheaper. It's done to allow marketing at the lowest possible cost.

    @jclovescoins said:
    what is the point of that. The Trade Dollar that is pictured looks clearly cleaned as well.

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    1madman1madman Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jclovescoins said:
    what is the point of that. The Trade Dollar that is pictured looks clearly cleaned as well.

    Not to mention the rim dent/damage, and the reverse scratches/graffiti

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    spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:

    @jclovescoins said:
    what is the point of that. The Trade Dollar that is pictured looks clearly cleaned as well.

    Not to mention the rim dent/damage, and the reverse scratches/graffiti

    Have you seen this TD in hand? If not, how can you be sure it is cleaned? Images don't always tell the truth. Also, how can you be sure the nicks on the reverse are graffiti? How do you know these weren't normal circulation marks? It is an XF coin, they get put through alot in circulation, graffiti would be intentional, I don't see it.................

    People love to put up yet another NGC thread and bash away at the TPG in a feeding frenzy. It is against the rules here supposedly (negative comments on TPG's). I always find it telling when a competitor board participants trash the competition TPG. Hmmmmmmm..................................


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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see any ngc bashing, just people wondering what this is about and stating their opinion of it. 🤷

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    1madman1madman Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Clearly the coin was cleaned at some point in the past. Fine hairlines along with a gleam that doesn’t mesh with the wear on the high points is staring you in the face from both sides of the coin. Can’t swear that cluster of scratches near america on the reverse is graffiti, but something outside of normal “circulation” caused that problem area.

    If NGC thinks the coin is unadulterated, good for them. They have an opinion that somebody paid for, and we on the board here have an opinion too. Not bashing NGC at all.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I love NGC, I don't like this idea. I have more NGC slabs than any other brand.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dumbing down for what purpose? We all learned the Sheldon scale and all of its nuances & intricacies. I guess we’re saying people now are less intelligent?

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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2023 10:21PM

    I don’t think this is a good idea. I prefer, at least, a numeric grade. I know they do this for hoards and such, but why would they do it for something like a trade dollar?

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I always thought this too was an interesting NGC label:


    peacockcoins

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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ianrussell said:
    I'm not a fan of this. Some people will assume they are details-graded (I'm not they are not, but don't know first hand). How do they fit in registry sets. How does one value them?

    • Ian

    If you're selling to a dealer they're vf20 and if he's selling to you they're vf35.

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    1madman1madman Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ianrussell said:
    I'm not a fan of this. Some people will assume they are details-graded (I'm not they are not, but don't know first hand). How do they fit in registry sets. How does one value them?

    • Ian

    This is actually a really good point. Maybe this is a new version of an NGC details holder. They’re net grading the coin without a grade number, and without spelling out the problem too. This trade dollar is a hot mess. Does anyone have a picture of another coin in this same style NGC label that is for sure not a details coin?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2023 5:33AM

    @Walkerfan said:
    I don’t think this is a good idea. I prefer, at least, a numeric grade. I know they do this for hoards and such, but why would they do it for something like a trade dollar?

    Because the customer requested and paid for it. It is part of a "hoard" named 19th Century Dollars (noted on the slab). It' probably is or was being sold through one of the mass marketers.

    It's cheaper and sufficient for many sales purposes.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    I always thought this too was an interesting NGC label:


    Why? PCGS does the and thing.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:
    I don’t think this is a good idea. I prefer, at least, a numeric grade. I know they do this for hoards and such, but why would they do it for something like a trade dollar?

    They did it this way because the owner of the coin requested that they leave the number off of the grade for whatever reason. This was not NGC's idea.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well it will give the seller a price range I guess. Maybe help with margins or perceived value in the buyers eyes.

    Its NGCs prerogative to allow. I personally do not think its a huge deal.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2023 5:52AM

    Sounds lazy to me. The price difference is too great within these ranges. Dealer/buyer buys at MS60 and sells at MS70?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    Sounds lazy to me. The price difference is too great within these ranges. Dealer/buyer buys at MS60 and sells at MS70?

    Lazy by whom? NGC charges less because they deliver less. The submitter chooses less because they don't need more.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A tool for dealers/sellers to hype the coin without finite grade determination. Instead of saying XF40, the hype is ' A really nice XF coin'...and leave impression of 45 or better. Cheers, RickO

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    A tool for dealers/sellers to hype the coin without finite grade determination. Instead of saying XF40, the hype is ' A really nice XF coin'...and leave impression of 45 or better. Cheers, RickO

    It's probably more of a tool to sell to people who think a 40% is a lousy grade. The 10 scale should help here.

    It's only available to bulk submitters who use it to mass market coins.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jclovescoins said:
    what is the point of that. The Trade Dollar that is pictured looks clearly cleaned as well.

    The coin looks like a Choice VF sharpness piece me in addition to the cleaning issue. Unfortunately the EF grade has been “degraded” in recent decades.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    BullsitterBullsitter Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I think dealers want it to make it easier to mass market coins such as Morgan dollars to the general public. A slab labeled "Extremely Fine" raises fewer questions than a coin with "XF45" among the general public which will be targeted by the coin hucksters on HSN or QVC or any number of newspaper and magazine ads.

    This. It is made to order for sellers to the general public.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bullsitter said:

    I 150% disagree with that grade.

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Better than perfection...that's pretty good.

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it's not about cornering the market, as much as it is about rounding the corners of it.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS70+ ... what nonsense.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Walkerfan said:
    I don’t think this is a good idea. I prefer, at least, a numeric grade. I know they do this for hoards and such, but why would they do it for something like a trade dollar?

    Because the customer requested and paid for it. It is part of a "hoard" named 19th Century Dollars (noted on the slab). It' probably is or was being sold through one of the mass marketers.

    It's cheaper and sufficient for many sales purposes.

    @PerryHall said:

    @Walkerfan said:
    I don’t think this is a good idea. I prefer, at least, a numeric grade. I know they do this for hoards and such, but why would they do it for something like a trade dollar?

    They did it this way because the owner of the coin requested that they leave the number off of the grade for whatever reason. This was not NGC's idea.

    That makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS70+ you have to be kidding me.

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    FrankHFrankH Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    Dumbing down for what purpose? We all learned the Sheldon scale and all of its nuances & intricacies. I guess we’re saying people now are less intelligent?

    I guess there's a new grading company on the horizon. :o

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2023 9:49AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    Why? PCGS does the and thing.

    NGC will state why on detail coins the issue (as shown below).
    The color of their inserts changes to denote a problem coin (as shown below).
    NGC states on their details insert, "GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC ONLY.
    DETAILS GRADE DOES NOT DETERMINE VALUE"

    The "Proof Details" coin (as I have shown above) is in a regular problem-free slab/insert.


    peacockcoins

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bullsitter said:

    I just checked with NGC on this and was told:
    "This is a mock-up image prepared by an external vendor that includes an obvious error. Of course, this is not a real grade."

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    On detail coins NGC will state the reason why (as shown below).
    The color of their inserts change to denote a problem coin (as shown below).

    From the NGC Standard Label page:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/labels/standard-labels/standard-labels/

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^
    Nice catch. Thanks MasonG.
    I wasn't aware.
    In searching a bit though I do notice NGC- even with these newer brown regular inserts will list the issue under the details notation.
    For example:


    peacockcoins

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