Crazy item walked into a local B&M today. One of those first struck, hand engraved 1921-D Morgans
Weiss
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Local owner didn't even begin to know where to touch it but was understandably suspicious.
I know our own @dcarr made an overstruck version, and I remembered seeing one offered at HA several years ago.
This seems pretty real? But that price sticker!
There is a lot of strange going on with this seller and the really disparate and incongruous mix of other coins he was looking to sell (modern proofs with outrageous pricing, a little of that late night telemarketing stuff).
NGC's cert lookup seems to give it a thumbs up:
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/1736122-001/64/
Thoughts? Strange, real, fake, run Forrest?
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
--Severian the Lame
--Severian the Lame
6
Comments
stolen?
Some examples sold by HA in 2014, where they both went for about $11,000.
ANY idea what they'd bring today if authentic?
--Severian the Lame
But do you print out an outrageous (or maybe not?) price sticker and slap it on a very rare Morgan if you've stolen it?
--Severian the Lame
If all thieves were geniuses, the jails would be empty.
Now that is a strange one to walk into a store.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I don't see anything suspicious other than the price. Not sure being the 4th Coin struck will pull that kind of premium? I'd say real but also strange.
I would certainly stay away. If I did have the money to buy, and really wanted it and could come to a reasonable arrangement I would immediately send it in for validation from ngc. I'd also get a written warranty from the dealer that he will take it back if it comes back fake.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
How can these coins straight grade with the engraving?
Note the error on the label : D
--Severian the Lame
Obviously, they weren't using spell check.
Either that or they're from south Chicago.
--Severian the Lame
I just think when a bunch of random stuff shows up at a local shop, it's a little odd. The way you described the interaction would make me wonder. But, the hobby includes a few people who aren't exactly mainstream in their mannerisms.
Might there be a ledger entry by the superintendent, explaining these alterations?
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Here’s a brief reference to the coin which started off as the subject of this thread:
https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v11n32a12.html
And here’s the description of coin #3, when auctioned by Heritage in 2014:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1921-d-1-3rd-dollar-released-from-the-denver-mint-presentation-piece-ngc-ms61-pcgs-7298-/a/1206-4715.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
“Presentation 1921-D Dollar, MS61
'3rd Dollar Released From the Denver Mint'
From 1923 Mehl Auction
1921-D $1 -- 3rd Dollar Released From the Denver Mint, Presentation Piece -- NGC MS61. This left obverse field is carefully engraved "3RD DOLLAR RELEASED FROM 1ST 100 / EVER COINED AT DENVER MINT / THOMAS ANNEAR SUPT." In May 1921, Morgan dollars were struck for the first time in the Denver mint. While no special ceremonies were held for the striking of these coins, the first two pieces were sent to State Senator L.C. Phipps, who gave one to the Colorado School of Mines and the other to the Colorado Historical Society. Both pieces were not engraved as were coins 3 through 12, and both were subsequently stolen. Coins 3 through 12 have the above inscription engraved. Numbers 3 through 12 appeared in a B. Max Mehl sale in December 1923 as lots 1040 through 1049. The lot 1040 description includes a quote from a May 22, 1921 letter from Supt. Annear to Charles W. Cowell, "the ten silver dollars purchased by you from the Mint were from the first hundred ever coined in this institution. At the request of the Director of the Mint, I sent two silver dollars to Washington ... Yours were the next ten released." Researcher Adna Wilder concluded that Cowell was responsible for the engraving. The coin itself is well-struck, with satiny luster and pearl-gray surfaces that show a bit of faint peripheral toning on both sides.
Ex: Thomas Annear; Charles W. Cowell; Cowell Collection (B. Max Mehl, 12/1923), lot 1040; Richard G. Bowman; Stephen Tebo; Denver ANA Signature (Heritage, 8/1996), lot 5633.
From the Collection of Donald E. Bently, sold for the benefit of the Bently Foundation.(Registry values: P3, N69)“
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Looks like a $70-$85 coin to me, not sure where the labeler is getting $85K? RGDS!
The $85,000 figure sounds very high, but your “$70-$85” is much too low, considering that two different examples brought $13,512 (see link in my previous post) and $11,867 in 2014.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe you are missing the historical significance of the coin. Is $85,000 too much? I don’t know. Maybe. But, what I do know is that the $70-$85 range would be ripping off the seller.
I see said the blind man - make the rules up as you go along.................
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I think these coins are more "Commermorative" in nature rather than engraved Morgans.
You'll have to take that up with NGC.
--Severian the Lame
I'm surprised you didn't value it at $15.
What an unbelievable coin to come into a local shop!
I guess you never know what's out there.
Maybe they just slapped $80,000 on there to see if the owner would say something like this:
"$80,000? That's crazy, I couldn't go above 40,000. You know how expensive a dozen eggs are these days"?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Certainly a unique coin, and of value to those who collect this kind of memorabilia. I see no justification for the $85K price tag.... Cheers, RickO
Handled one of the engraved pieces at ANACS. I think they are fascinating.
It is worth what it brings at auction. As Mark says this will be somewhere in the five figures.$25K would not surprise me.
TD
Cool item. I could see a diehard passionate Morgan collector paying quite a bit. How often do these come to market? This is the chance to obtain.
Seems the most logical thing to do is to have the seller submit the piece for auction. If he's the legit owner, and if he really wants to sell it rather than just bragging about it to a smaller local coin store.
I'll share the consensus with the owner today.
Thanks, everyone!
--Severian the Lame
Searching the NNP turned up this one having been in Northern Nevada Coin's inventory in 2009. I thought I had seen a catalog on the NNP that showed a very early (1920s) sale of a whole bunch of these for between $1.75 and $10 (more or less), but I can't find it now.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It certainly isn't very eye appealing to me.
Has that leather pouch heavy toning look.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I could see that walking into a shop if it were, say, freshly inherited... the moon money label indicates that someone has (or had) a label maker and a crazy expectation of value. In the past we've seen off the wall prices like this written on holders of various coins, often by elderly collectors who were VERY proud of their stuff. If something like that walked into our place, I'm thinking that assuming everything was kosher I'd try to get as much provenance as possible and then perhaps offer some kind of consignment or purchase deal... contingent upon either a resub to NGC or cross to our hosts just to cover bases.
Edit to add...this of course would all be moot if they were convinced it was actually worth $85K
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Maybe the $85K was stuck on it so the heirs wouldn't sell too cheap!
Thought about it but even with the graffiti it's still a 21-D and not a P, and thank god it's not a cacs taco bell natural monster toner. :Roll Maybe you could "commemorate" a couple and try for profit??? LoL!
Found the catalog. B. Max Mehl sale, December 18, 1923, of the Charles Cowell collection, which included specimens 3 through 12 as well as a Lesher dollar collection. These coins are lots 1040-49, listed on page 46. Prices realized in the back of the catalog range from $1.35 to $3.50. Link to full catalog. Here's a shot of page 46.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
“… with Proof surface!”
I wouldn’t read anything onto that other than that the coin was PL.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why that one and not the others?
Only one was cataloged as "Bright" uncirculated, too. Also "as last" may have meant to imply it. Consistency in cataloging doesn't seem to have been a strong point here.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Can't really definitively tell from the image but the coin in question seemingly has no PL look to it. Perhaps a better-quality image might shed light on this.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I'm sure all of these coins have a PL look to them. 1921-D is avaialble, though scarce, in PL, and the mirrors aren't usually very deep. Coin #9 pictured on Heritage's site gives a feeling for what the mirrors, or "Proof surface" cited by the cataloger (Mehl, himself?), looked like. It's possible that they were "proofier" in 1923, as they were quite new and hadn't been dipped yet, but could have had varying amounts of storage haze on them.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
At the LCS some homeless looking guy who had a contest between mustard stains and dandruff pulled out a capitol typeset board full of key gems from a rumpled paper sack, he also a had a full set of Unc educational notes. Just show and tell he was the treasurer of I believe the Covina Coin Club, Dale? Just walking around town with them...
I wonder what collectors might think to realize their were only 12 made(all by the Denver Mint) which is at least a rarity of 9.5 until known what number have survived which would make it even more rare. Not a collector of such memorabilia, but I can understand why someone might be. I will save that holder number and track this coin for the fun of it. I feel the price may surprize many.
Jim
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Coin #12 was owned by a collector I once corresponded with (but I never met him in person). After he passed away, it was in the inventory of Julian Liebman when it was stolen, and then later recovered.